Creakings... Spoke Rub?

Mark Blewett said:

........ any recommendations for a LBS's in SW
London / North Surrey who are good with retensioning wheels?

Slightly further out than your stated area:
http://www.rstocker.freeserve.co.uk/harry.htm

Builds very good wheels. Don't know if he'll take on correcting/retensioning
existing wheels.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Mark Blewett wrote:
........

Quoted message said:

How under tension should spokes be? And how do I know they are right?

Spokes should be nearly as tight as the wheel can bear without going a
funny shape, and as tight as the rim can take without slowly deforming or
cracking around the spoke holes. Without a tensiometer (sp?) (expensive),
you have to guess this latter important factor, or compare to a similar
wheel that you reckon is good. Compare tone when plucked as well as
tightness when squeezed. Note that front, rear right side and rear left
side usually have different tensions.

Quoted message said:

At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it stress
relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe what "hard"
means!

Quoted message said:

Assuming my suspicions are correct, what can I do myself, or should I
get a professional in? If so any recommendations for a LBS's in SW
London / North Surrey who are good with retensioning wheels?

A second opinion from another shop wouldn't be bad thing to get.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Mark Blewett wrote:

Thanks to both Pete and Nigel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How under tension should spokes be? And how do I know they are right?

Spokes should be nearly as tight as the wheel can bear without going a
funny shape, and as tight as the rim can take without slowly deforming or
cracking around the spoke holes. Without a tensiometer (sp?) (expensive),
you have to guess this latter important factor, or compare to a similar
wheel that you reckon is good. Compare tone when plucked as well as
tightness when squeezed. Note that front, rear right side and rear left
side usually have different tensions.

Interesting could you expand on this? I notice when pinging spokes
that this appears to be the case, but why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it stress
relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe what "hard"
means!

Good point, a squeeze which doesn't leave a mark on your fingers.. I
can't think of a better measure at the moment!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Assuming my suspicions are correct, what can I do myself, or should I
get a professional in? If so any recommendations for a LBS's in SW
London / North Surrey who are good with retensioning wheels?

A second opinion from another shop wouldn't be bad thing to get.

Although I've "fixed" it for the time being, I agree.

Looking around, I notice Evans Cycles do a "standalone job - wheel
true" for £15 (see
http://www.evanscycles.com/servicing.jsp?item_id=441). Although the
wheel is true, I still think the spokes aren't under as much tension
as they should be, so maybe it comes under that "job".

Compared to the time/effort/knowledge of doing it myself it is
tempting at that price to get someone else to do it. I could take the
wheel off / tyre off and drop just the wheel off on the way to work
and pick it up on the way home. Seems a small price to pay.. has
anyone used Evans to true/tension a wheel?

Having said that, I'd like quite like to be ablle to sdo it myself in
the future.. what do I need both in terms of tools and instruction?

Thanks
Mark

Mark Blewett said:

Pete Biggs said:

Mark Blewett wrote:

Thanks to both Pete and Nigel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How under tension should spokes be? And how do I know they are right?

Spokes should be nearly as tight as the wheel can bear without going a
funny shape, and as tight as the rim can take without slowly deforming or
cracking around the spoke holes. Without a tensiometer (sp?) (expensive),
you have to guess this latter important factor, or compare to a similar
wheel that you reckon is good. Compare tone when plucked as well as
tightness when squeezed. Note that front, rear right side and rear left
side usually have different tensions.

Interesting could you expand on this? I notice when pinging spokes
that this appears to be the case, but why?

Here's a good read.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
which contains a link to:
http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm
which is about estimating spoke tension by ear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it stress
relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe what "hard"
means!

Good point, a squeeze which doesn't leave a mark on your fingers.. I
can't think of a better measure at the moment!

Better is a squeeze which does leave a mark on your fingers - even if
you have strong fingers. Mr. Brown has even advised extra leverage using
a left hand crank IIRC.

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I notice Evans Cycles do a "standalone job - wheel
true" for £15 (see
http://www.evanscycles.com/servicing.jsp?item_id=441). Although the
wheel is true, I still think the spokes aren't under as much tension
as they should be, so maybe it comes under that "job".

Good grief - that's the price of a set of good spokes or a perfectly
serviceable rim.

Quoted message said:

Compared to the time/effort/knowledge of doing it myself it is
tempting at that price to get someone else to do it. I could take the
wheel off / tyre off and drop just the wheel off on the way to work
and pick it up on the way home. Seems a small price to pay.. has
anyone used Evans to true/tension a wheel?

No - I've been saving myself an enormous amount of money for 26 years,
or spending it on other things.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, I'd like quite like to be ablle to sdo it myself in
the future.. what do I need both in terms of tools and instruction?

Check out the links above.

--

JimP

" " - John Cage

Mark Blewett said:

Quoted message said:

........Compare tone
when plucked as well as tightness when squeezed. Note that front,
rear right side and rear left side usually have different tensions.

Interesting could you expand on this? I notice when pinging spokes
that this appears to be the case, but why?

With the rear wheel, it's to do with the "dish" or the way the right-hand
hub flange is offset in relation to the rim to make room for the
sprockets. Sheldon Brown explains much more and better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it
stress relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe
what "hard" means!

Good point, a squeeze which doesn't leave a mark on your fingers.. I
can't think of a better measure at the moment!

They probably are a bit slack then.

You could give all the spokes half a turn, then check and repeat as
necessary until they feel right. Some minor truing will be required
afterwards because you won't turn all the nipples by precisely the same
amount.

Rather than getting the whole job done by a shop, how about DIYing then
casually asking a mechanic to have a feel, if you know what I mean?

A Buddy Spokey (probably the red version) from Wiggle, is all you need.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark Blewett

(') said:

Pete Biggs said:

Mark Blewett wrote:

Thanks to both Pete and Nigel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How under tension should spokes be? And how do I know they are right?

Spokes should be nearly as tight as the wheel can bear without going a
funny shape, and as tight as the rim can take without slowly deforming
or
cracking around the spoke holes. Without a tensiometer (sp?)
(expensive), you have to guess this latter important factor, or compare
to a similar
wheel that you reckon is good. Compare tone when plucked as well as
tightness when squeezed. Note that front, rear right side and rear
left side usually have different tensions.

Interesting could you expand on this? I notice when pinging spokes
that this appears to be the case, but why?

The cassette on the drive side of the rear wheel takes up a considerable
portion of the width of the hub. So the spokes on that side run at a
more obtuse angle to the hub. So to balance the non-drive-side spokes,
which are at a less obtuse angle, they have to be tighter (by quite a
lot). Unless you have disk brakes, this problem doesn't arise on the
front wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it
stress
relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe what "hard"
means!

Good point, a squeeze which doesn't leave a mark on your fingers.. I
can't think of a better measure at the moment!

That ain't hard enough. Squeeze them until it really hurts. At least for
stress relieving (of the wheels, not you).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; better than your average performing pineapple

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark Blewett

(') said:

Interesting could you expand on this? I notice when pinging spokes
that this appears to be the case, but why?

The cassette on the drive side of the rear wheel takes up a considerable
portion of the width of the hub. So the spokes on that side run at a
more obtuse angle to the hub. So to balance the non-drive-side spokes,
which are at a less obtuse angle, they have to be tighter (by quite a
lot). Unless you have disk brakes, this problem doesn't arise on the
front wheel.

Thanks, seems so obvious when its explained so clearly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> At the moment if I pick a pair of spokes and sqeeze them, I get some
> 5mm of movement, which I suspect is too much?

Not if squeezing hard (which by the way is a good thing to do as it
stress
relieves the spokes). Unfortuantely it's hard to describe what "hard"
means!

Good point, a squeeze which doesn't leave a mark on your fingers.. I
can't think of a better measure at the moment!

That ain't hard enough. Squeeze them until it really hurts. At least for
stress relieving (of the wheels, not you).

After a bit of reading and online shopping to get the spoke wrench,
I'm going to have a go. If the worse happens £15 will be a small price
to pay to get ithe wheel back in true.

Thanks to everyone who replied, I always thought it was a black art
that I couldn't master... but having read all the links, given a bit
of time and patience I'm now thinking yes I can do this!

Thank you
Mark