Cramps

I have been fighting cramps for about 5 years and have done
a ton of research. Two main responses you are going to get
will focus on hydration and electrolytes. These are usually
the key cause for the large percentage of those who end up
getting cramps. Unfortunately, they are not the reason for
mine. Realize with today's bike clothes and the breeze from
riding, it is hard to know how much you are really sweating.
One good indication is the amount of salt in your bike
clothes after riding. An important thing is to take constant
sips throughout your ride. The body can only absorb so much
water at any one time. This is the reason that a number of
people use Camelbaks. The other important thing is to take
in electrolytes while your ride.

Another focus is on how the body utilizes carbohydrates
(glucose and glycogen) and the resulting processing of
lactic acid; this has made me realize that these attacks
have always been during periods of increased Cytomax usage.
Cytomax is based on and contains an alpha-L-polylactate
(label attached). It is basically the lactate with the acid
removed and works as a buffer, clustered around amino acids
and carbohydrates. They describe this as a non-acidic L-
lactate ionically bound to L-argine. I have encountered
three other riders that were having challenges with
cramping that was tied to their usage of Cytomax (if there
are others who are reading this post, please respond).
After I stopped using Cytomax, I have only had one episode.
Other than the Gatorade indicate below, do you use any
sports/energy type drinks?

Have you had any previous episodes?

"Mike McGuire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ne-
ws:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got into a pretty bad place with cramps yesterday doing
a ride which was a step up from what from what I had done
before. It was a first try at going up to Skyline from
where I live in Palo Alto. Using a mapping
program,counting the ups and downs, this is about 2600
total feet of gain. The first eight miles is rolling with
total gain of 600 feet to the start of Kings Mtn road, and
then it gets hard and gains 1600 feet in four miles. So I
got to the top of that and took a rest. The day was in the
mid 70's and the route is mostly shady so I did't feel
particularly overheated, nor did it seem like I had
sweated excessively. I was tired but I didn't feel spent
or bonked or particularyly dehydrated. I spent about ten
minutes resting and drank about 16 oz of Gatorade and ate
an enery bar. The I headed on. The rest of the route was
south on Skyline and was to gain about 300 feet over a
couple of miles and a few more downhill miles to my
descent route. It was on this uphill the trouble started.
I started getting cramps in my quads and the muscles on
the inside of my thighs. I had to stop and get over them.
Then I started again and before long the cramps hit again.
I took about 3 cycles of this to get over the hump and
down La Honda road to the flats. When I got there it was
clear that I wasn't going to be able to climb even the
short hills it would take to get home, so to avoid a
littering citation, I called my spousal unit to come pick
up the bike and the grotesquely twitching corpse.

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion thing
going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps started.
I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I
zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there was no
recovery at all.

The one good thing I want to comment on, was the number
people on bikes who observed me having problems, and asked
how I was doing or could they help.

Mike

take 100 out of my email to reach me.

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion thing
going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps started.
I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I
zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there was no
recovery at all.

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what
I've read and experienced, low electrolytes (particularly
potassium and sodium) can contribute as well. In your case,
it sounds like you had simply over- worked your legs.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return
address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion thing
going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps started.
I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I
zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there was no
recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what
I've read and experienced, low electrolytes
(particularly potassium and sodium) can contribute as
well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name like
Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in content. Check
the label.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike McGuire said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to
do rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If
it weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to
keep going.

Well you say you weren't dehydrated, but I think
you're mistaken.

Drink more and use an electrolyte replacement on
long/hot/hard rides. It's very easy to underestimate your
sweat rate when climbing, and especially at altitude or in
dry climate. Eating mineral supplements can help, however
if you are not drinking enough you may just be working on
a kidney stone if you add lots of minerals to your
dehydrated body (especially if using cal-mags which
contain a lot of calcium).

24oz per hour in hot climbing conditions is not at all
excessive. However your sweat rate is highly individual and
you will need to measure it to find out how much you are
losing. Generally this means you weigh yourself before and
after the ride and assume you are about a pint low for each
pound you lose. Then add that number of pints to the amount
you did drink on the ride, and divide by the number of hours
you were on the road. That will tell you your hydration
target for the next time.

I do a 4-6 hour mountain ride (often hot weather) about once
a week and I have had pretty good luck using Cytomax or
Endurolytes. But to be perfectly honest I don't think these
products have any special magic - if you pay attention to
your hydration and do any form of electrolyte replacement
you will probably be OK.

--Paul

InfoQuest said:

I have been fighting cramps for about 5 years and have
done a ton of research. Other than the Gatorade indicate
below, do you use any sports/energy type drinks?

Have you had any previous episodes?

I haven't used anything but Gatorade. Note to Jobst--I took
a look at a the label on a can---37% RDA of Sodium and 22%
RDA of Postassium--You're right.

I have had this happen a time or two before on backpack trips--
a heavy load, long climb + altitude did it too me, but I'm
lighter and in better shape now and wasn't expecting it. I
didn't drink anything while on the hard part of the climb.
That may be the key. I have noticed as I expand by
capabilities, the first time on something new is ghastly,
the second time hard, the third time I wonder what the
problems was, and the fourth time I get careless and its
hard again.

Mike

take 100 out of my email to reach me.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion
thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to
where there was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what
I've read and experienced, low electrolytes
(particularly potassium and sodium) can contribute as
well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name like
Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in content.
Check the label.

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat
makes my stomach turn. :-) Think I'll just drink
Gatorade and eat a banana.....

In article <[email hidden]>,

InfoQuest said:

Another focus is on how the body utilizes carbohydrates
(glucose and glycogen) and the resulting processing of
lactic acid; this has made me realize that these attacks
have always been during periods of increased Cytomax usage.
Cytomax is based on and contains an alpha-L-polylactate
(label attached). It is basically the lactate with the acid
removed and works as a buffer, clustered around amino acids
and carbohydrates. They describe this as a non-acidic L-
lactate ionically bound to L-argine. I have encountered
three other riders that were having challenges with
cramping that was tied to their usage of Cytomax (if there
are others who are reading this post, please respond).

I have had plenty of lessons in cramping but no problems
with Cytomax and cramps.

Gatorade causes cramps for me of another type... the awful
gurgly stomach cramps followed by instant flush of my GI
system into the nearest toilet or drainage ditch. So I had
to find something else.

You definitely have to experiment to find out what works
best for you.

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name like
Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in content.
Check the label.

If only it didn't taste so bad.

--Bill Davidson

In article
<[email hidden]>, gooserider@mouse-
potato.com says...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

> So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to
> do rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk.
> If it weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy
> to keep going. It seems like it was some sort of
> depletion thing going on. I hit zero on something and
> the cramps started. I stopped and recovered a little
> bit, but before long I zeroed out again, and finally
> I got to where there was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from
what I've read and experienced, low electrolytes
(particularly potassium and sodium) can contribute as
well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name
like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in
content. Check the label.

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat
makes my stomach turn. :-) Think I'll just drink
Gatorade and eat a banana.....

That was my feeling too! I like V-8, but I don't think it
would sit very well in my stomach when I'm hot, sweaty and
thirsty. I stick with diluted Gatorade or plain water.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return
address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Quoted message said:

From: "Mike McGuire" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I got into a pretty bad place with cramps yesterday doing
a ride which was a step up from what from what I had done
before. It was a first try at going up to Skyline from
where I live in Palo Alto.

The ride you describe is one of my favorites except that I
start in Burlingame instead of Palo Alto. And I like the
descent down 84 better than Old La Honda simply because it
is much faster.

You did not mention drinking water, IIRC. And on that ride
in mild weather, I will empty two bottles of water by the
time I get to the Trading Post on Skyline. They have an
outside water pipe designed for water bottles. So for me, it
is a four bottle ride, and more if it is hot.

Although, as they say, YMMV, I have found it wise to avoid
Gatorade. For me, sports drinks are good after the ride, or
on a long ride perhaps between every fourth or fifth bottle
of water. Years ago, I rode with a guy who was drinking
nothing but V8. He got into serious trouble, so bad that I
had to stay way up-wind from him.

And for cramps after the ride, over the years, I have found
that calcium and vitamin D pills make a big difference.

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
> rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
> weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
> going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion
> thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
> started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
> before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to
> where there was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what
I've read and experienced, low electrolytes
(particularly potassium and sodium) can contribute as
well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name
like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in
content. Check the label.

Quoted message said:

Ick. The thought of drinking V8 in 95 degree Florida heat
makes my stomach turn. :-) Think I'll just drink
Gatorade and eat a banana...

It's good to see that macho names have a large effect on
some impressionable riders. it makes the money spent on PR
worth while after all. I suspect you haven't tasted V8.

"The thought"! Oh yes the thought!

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Bill Davidson said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name
like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in
content. Check the label.

Quoted message said:

If only it didn't taste so bad.

People eat Power Bars that can hardly be swallowed without
washing them down with a chaser and taste like cardboard
soaked in molasses. If you can do that, V8 should be tasty.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Mike McGuire said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion thing
going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps started.
I stopped and recovered a little bit, but before long I
zeroed out again, and finally I got to where there was no
recovery at all.

It could be not drinking enough (you didn't say how much you
drank on the climb of Kings Mtn) or lack of electrolytes,
but muscle fatigue due to a ride harder than you're used to
and the prolonged effort required for grinding up a long
climb is also a likely contributor. The cure for this is
knowing how to pace yourself, to take it easy at the start
of long rides and so on. The good news is that if you are
careful not to ride yourself into the ground, your
conditioning improves and it will be easier next time.

Quoted message said:

People eat Power Bars that can hardly be swallowed
without washing them down with a chaser and taste like
cardboard soaked in molasses. If you can do that, V8
should be tasty.

I've never tasted a Power Bar that was even close to as
nasty tasting as V8. I've never like the stuff. I wish I
did. It clearly has a lot of healthy stuff in it. It just
makes me gag.

There is a "health" juice that I like. It's Green Machine by
Naked Juice. It's got lots of veggie stuff in it but it also
has a base of apple and pineapple juice that's sweet enough
to make the rest of it tollerable. I'm not sure if it's as
healthy as V8. I would guess not with all that sugary juice.

--Bill Davidson

Quoted message said:

... V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best drink commonly
found in stores that contains the electrolytes needed. Of
course it isn't a classy name like Power Bar or Gatorade,
but it beats these in content. Check the label.

I agree.

A close friend and experienced touring cyclist began having
serious problems riding. Rather than cramping, she was
getting irregular heartbeats, IIRC, and her energy level was
way, way down.

Then she discovered V8 juice. She now calls it "The Cure."

I agree the flavor isn't normally my favorite. But on
some scorching, long, dry rides, it seems to have what my
body craves.

Another tip: Try adding a bit of salt substitute to your
water bottle. Not much, not enough to affect the taste, just
a half teaspoon or so. It contains both sodium and
potassium.

On long rides when I'm pushing myself, I find this makes a
very noticeable difference.

--
--------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove
rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Mon, 31 May 2004 22:27:49 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Frank Krygowski said:

Then she discovered V8 juice. She now calls it "The Cure."

I agree the flavor isn't normally my favorite. But on
some scorching, long, dry rides, it seems to have what my
body craves.

That's how I discovered it. Bagged out, thirsty and bleary
eyed I looked at the drinks in the cooler. Searching for
plain cranberry because none of the sweet stuff appealed to
me. Then I saw the V8 and started thinking about its celery
flavour. Restoration was instant, complete and amazing. Good
stuff, if you like it. My homemade juice is better and
varies with the seasons. Ginger, celery, lemon, carrots,
beets, daikon and/or whatever else.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name like
Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in content.
Check the label.

Jobst: I'm sure, as a kid, you loved broccoli, cauliflower,
spinach & brussel sprouts too. Matter of fact, so did/do I
(especially if you make it terribly unhealthy with a lot of
cheese sauce). But many people don't have a taste for that
stuff, and V8... yikes... it burns a whole through the
stomach of some people!

Let's see... 8oz of V8 (one-half of a small water
bottle)=620mg of sodium. 16oz of Cytomax=80mg of sodium.
Both are the recommended serving size (8oz for V8, 16oz for
Cytomax). Calories, 50 for V8, 100 for Cytomax (so exactly
the same per oz). You could go for low sodium V8 (if you can
find it), at just 140mg of sodium/8 oz, but they boost the
potassium from 540mg to 840mg.

Many people aren't looking for a bit of carrot & tomato
juice to try and mask that much sodium & potassium. Also,
if you do take in that much sodium, you're going to have to
drink one heck of a lot of water to try and balance out
your system...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it. I want to do
rides like this and more. It wasn't like a bonk. If it
weren't for the cramps, I had plenty of energy to keep
going. It seems like it was some sort of depletion
thing going on. I hit zero on something and the cramps
started. I stopped and recovered a little bit, but
before long I zeroed out again, and finally I got to
where there was no recovery at all.

Quoted message said:

Pure muscular exhaustion can cause cramps, but from what
I've read and experienced, low electrolytes
(particularly potassium and sodium) can contribute as
well. In your case, it sounds like you had simply over-
worked your legs.

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name like
Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in content.
Check the label.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

In article <E4Puc.7292$lL1.6135@fed1read03>,

Bill Davidson said:

Quoted message said:

In that respect, V8-Vegetable juice is probably the best
drink commonly found in stores that contains the
electrolytes needed. Of course it isn't a classy name
like Power Bar or Gatorade, but it beats these in
content. Check the label.

If only it didn't taste so bad.

It can be stepped-on and modified. I like it with a squirt
of lime juice in it. Some folks do the
worcestershire/tabasco thing to it. But then I live in a
land where some people mix beer & tomato juice (Manitoba's
Standard Lager[tm] is/was an especially good brew for that.)

Speaking of lime juice, I find papayas to be rather bland by
themselves, but a squirt of lime juice on them really brings
their flavour out.

A big canful of V8 makes a great base for pot roast. Toss in
some spuds, onions, carrots, celery ... good stuff. Makes
good beef stew, too. And if you like beef & tomato on rice
but don't care for it being too sweet, a small tin of V8
thickened with a little tapioca starch makes a nice sauce.
Maybe give it a dollop of catsup to lend it /some/
sweetness.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Mike McGuire said:

I got into a pretty bad place with cramps yesterday doing
a ride which was a step up from what from what I had done
before. It was a first try at going up to Skyline from
where I live in Palo Alto.

Quoted message said:

So what to do about this? How to avoid it.

Mike:

Your statement that this ride was a step up from what you
had done before suggests that your muscles were just plain
overworked when you started cramping. You may have also been
somewhat dehydrated, but I think the main cause was muscle
overwork. I experienced several incidents of muscle cramping
caused by overwork while I was adjusting to riding a new
bike several years ago. The next time you try this route
you'll probably get through it without cramping.

Re: V8

I usually set out on an all-day ride with water, Enduralytes
(overpriced salt tablets), a flask or two of Hammergel (for
times when I don't feel like eating solid food) and a mix of
Clif, Luna, and Balance bars. I can recall one such time
last year when riding the Mt. Hamilton Loop, I approached
the small store at Calaveras and Pleasanton-Sunol roads
desperate for a change of diet. I was hungry and didn't feel
like eating anything sweet. After perusing the limited
selection at the small store I found a bottle of V8 and a
medium-sized bag of Lays salty, greasy potato chips. I drank
the V8 and ate half the chips while stopped and ate the rest
of them on the way home. I felt much better afterward.
Sometimes 'junk' food is just what the body needs.

-- Bill Bushnell