Cracked headtube

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it home
I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube had
about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that the
frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset? Is the totally the bike
shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain bike and although not
glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this situation?

If this happened at my shop, I would be on the phone to Raliegh and see if they would cover it as a
warranty. It normally would not happen just changing a headset, if you rode the bike for a while
with a loose headset that could cause it. It is always a good idea to get with the manufacturer when
there is a question like this. Hope this helps, Garry

Not trying to insult your intelligence, but are you sure it's the aluminum that's cracked? It could
"just" be paint, in which case it's simply cosmetic. Generally, head tubes on alu. frames are mighty
thick and will not crack as a result of putting a headset in, unles they seriously tried! It's a
tricky thing. Maybe the crack was pre-existing and they just didnt' notice. A loose headset causing
long-term back and forth forces could cause it to crack and maybe they just made it more noticeable
with a tight headset. It might be helpful to know where the crack is around the circum. of the head
tube. Really, it's hard to know who's in the right here. Our shop would have tried to get a
replacement from Raleigh first (we would never have cracked it by forcing the wrong headset in
there..) and failing that, would try to get you an equivalent frame at a discount. You can get some
nice frames relatively cheap if you're in the business.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it home
I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube had
about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that the
frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset? Is the totally the bike
shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain bike and although not
glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this situation?

Indeed the tube is cracked with the crack parallel to the tube on the left side (90 degrees from
front) as you sit on bike. I had been having problems with the original headset working loose and
took it to the shop after discovering that the threads on the top bearing race were stripped. Sounds
like this may have fatigued the frame. :-(

Unfortunately, I bought this bike used so I doubt Raleigh will extend their warranty to me.

S. Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote: : Not trying to insult your intelligence, but
are you sure it's the aluminum : that's cracked? It could "just" be paint, in which case it's
simply : cosmetic. Generally, head tubes on alu. frames are mighty thick and will : not crack as
a result of putting a headset in, unles they seriously tried! : It's a tricky thing. Maybe the
crack was pre-existing and they just didnt' : notice. A loose headset causing long-term back and
forth forces could cause : it to crack and maybe they just made it more noticeable with a tight :
headset. It might be helpful to know where the crack is around the circum. : of the head tube.
Really, it's hard to know who's in the right here. Our : shop would have tried to get a
replacement from Raleigh first (we would : never have cracked it by forcing the wrong headset in
there..) and failing : that, would try to get you an equivalent frame at a discount. You can get
: some nice frames relatively cheap if you're in the business.

: Cheers,

: Scott..
: --
: Scott Anderson

: "Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: "]news:[email hidden]...
:> I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it
:> home I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube
:> had about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that
:> the frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.
:>
:> Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset? Is the totally the bike
:> shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain bike and although not
:> glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this situation?
:>

--
---------------------------------------------------------
Kurt Fankhauser <[email hidden]> 815 S.E. Brittany Lane Sherwood, OR 97140
(503)625-5260

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Indeed the tube is cracked with the crack parallel to the tube on the left side (90 degrees from
front) as you sit on bike. I had been having problems with the original headset working loose and
took it to the shop after discovering that the threads on the top bearing race were stripped.
Sounds like this may have fatigued the frame. :-(

You have answered your own question

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, I bought this bike used so I doubt Raleigh will extend their warranty to me.

It is always worth a phone call, they may offer you a killer deal on a new frame.

Garry

You know, even though it's a bit shadey on your part, some companies will warranty almost anything.
You can try to get a replacement through a Raleigh dealer, although I don't know anything about
their rep. as a company for doing this type of thing. You might see if the installer of the headset
can get you something. I know we've gotten frames from different distributors that were lying around
for some nice sums..Giant alu mtb frames for $50..they strip parts off for something and are left
with the frame lying around. A shop with some contacts might be able to help you out, especially if
they is some question about how the frame was cracked. Can't hurt.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Indeed the tube is cracked with the crack parallel to the tube on the left side (90 degrees from
front) as you sit on bike. I had been having problems with the original headset working loose and
took it to the shop after discovering that the threads on the top bearing race were stripped.
Sounds like this may have fatigued the frame. :-(

Unfortunately, I bought this bike used so I doubt Raleigh will extend their warranty to me.

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it home
I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube had
about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that the
frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset? Is the totally the bike
shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain bike and although not
glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this situation?

You should calmly discuss with the owner the color of the new frame they are buying for you and when
they can promptly arrange the parts transfer.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Quoted message said:

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it
home I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the
headtube had about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding
is that the frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a

headset?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is the totally the bike shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain
bike and although not glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this
situation?

"garry n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this happened at my shop, I would be on the phone to Raliegh and see if they would cover it as
a warranty. It normally would not happen just changing a headset, if you rode the bike for a while
with a loose headset that could cause it. It is always a good idea to get with the manufacturer
when there is a question like this.

OK I agree about calling the vendor. OTOH the customer dropped off an intact frame and returned to a
broken one. That makes it the shop's repsonsibility whether Raleigh pays or not.( and that shouldn't
concern the customer).

I also agree that this is not usual or "normal".

Explain how you feel a poor headset _adjustment_ can crack a frame exactly??

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Well, we don't know the frame was intact exactly. The crack could have been pre-existing and just
not noticed. The shop guy should have noticed the crack and reported it to the owner before he
installed the new headset though. But we don't know for sure that the crack wasn't already there. I
think you'd be hard pressed to crack a head tube installing a headset without resorting to extreme
measures. It's possible, but any reputable shop wouldn't do that. And if it's not a reputable shop,
what chance is there that they're going to pony up for a new frame?

With respect to the headset, I've seen head tubes flared out and cracked like a hollow tube that's
been used as a drift. It certainly wasn't aliens that caused it!! ;-) There was significant play in
the headset that was never corrected and constant abuse in that state lead to ovalization of the
head tube. I'm not saying this happens in every case, but it does happen.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OK I agree about calling the vendor. OTOH the customer dropped off an

intact

Quoted message said:

frame and returned to a broken one. That makes it the shop's

repsonsibility

Quoted message said:

whether Raleigh pays or not.( and that shouldn't concern the customer).

I also agree that this is not usual or "normal".

Explain how you feel a poor headset _adjustment_ can crack a frame

exactly??

Quoted message said:

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Kurt Fankhauser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it
home I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the
headtube had about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My

understanding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is that the frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a

headset?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is the totally the bike shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain
bike and although not glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle
this situation?

"garry n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this happened at my shop, I would be on the phone to Raliegh and see

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they would cover it as a warranty. It normally would not happen just changing a headset, if you
rode the bike for a while with a loose

headset

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that could cause it. It is always a good idea to get with the

manufacturer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when there is a question like this.

OK I agree about calling the vendor. OTOH the customer dropped off an

intact

Quoted message said:

frame and returned to a broken one. That makes it the shop's

repsonsibility

Quoted message said:

whether Raleigh pays or not.( and that shouldn't concern the customer).

I also agree that this is not usual or "normal".

Explain how you feel a poor headset _adjustment_ can crack a frame

exactly??

Quoted message said:

Could be that some shop monkey didn't check for proper prep and just forced the thing in?

Robin Hubert

Quoted message said:

Could be that some shop monkey didn't check for proper prep and just

forced

Quoted message said:

the thing in?

Extremely unlikely. Chances are good that the bike took a good front collision. Possably at the bars
or the head tube. I have seen a head tube split this way from the bike impacting a garage door while
on top of the car. I have also seen head tubes split after they have been riden with a loose headset
over a while. Lots of BMX bikes do this, the youngsters still jump them even when the headset is so
loose it rattles around. I have also seen some aluminium frames have their head tubes get egg shape.
I suspect that these were not heat treated properly after they were welded. I don't think it's the
shop's fault. They should call Raleigh for you though.

Garry

I should also add that not being able to keep the old headset adjusted was a sympton of the split
head tube.

Garry

In article said:

I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it home
I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube had
about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that the
frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

For practical purposes yes.

Quoted message said:

Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset?

No.

Quoted message said:

Is the totally the bike shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued?

Well it's hard to say if it's their fault. Bike shops force headsets into improperly prepped frames
every day and don't split the head tube. But with the right materials and enough force it is
clearly possible.

Quoted message said:

This was my rain bike and although not glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike
shop handle this situation?

A good shop would be trying to figure out how to make you happy, generally that means trying to keep
you on the road. If the store is a Raleigh dealer than they should be trying to scare up a new frame
for you from Raleigh first, and failing that they should think real hard about whether they owe you
one anyway. Maybe they do.

--Paul

Paul S. said:

Well it's hard to say if it's their fault. Bike shops force headsets into improperly prepped frames
every day and don't split the head tube. But with the right materials and enough force it is
clearly possible.

...

Quoted message said:

A good shop would be trying to figure out how to make you happy, generally that means trying to
keep you on the road. If the store is a Raleigh dealer than they should be trying to scare up a new
frame for you from Raleigh first, and failing that they should think real hard about whether they
owe you one anyway. Maybe they do.

--Paul

To the original poster:

Been following this thread. Not much experience here as I don't fool too much with Al frames.

However it does seem to me that either they cracked the frame installing the head set or that they
should have noticed the crack in the frame when installing the headset. I think it is more likely
that they just missed it.

It is pretty clear that at the very least, they ought to refund all the cost associated with
replacing the headset.

And as many have suggested, if they probably ought to be finding you a frame. Both of you are lucky
are lucky that you found it before the head tube failed, that can be pretty serious and people get
hurt big time.

A replacement frame would be a good way of saying, "We're sorry we messed this one up, we don't
think we damaged the frame but we should have been smart enough to check over the region for signs
of damage. Glad you caught our mistake before anything serious happened. Won't happen again."

Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs <[email hidden]> wrote:

: To the original poster:

: Been following this thread. Not much experience here as I don't fool too much with Al frames.

: However it does seem to me that either they cracked the frame installing the head set or that they
: should have noticed the crack in the frame when installing the headset. I think it is more likely
: that they just missed it.

: It is pretty clear that at the very least, they ought to refund all the cost associated with
: replacing the headset.

: And as many have suggested, if they probably ought to be finding you a frame. Both of you are
: lucky are lucky that you found it before the head tube failed, that can be pretty serious and
: people get hurt big time. A replacement frame would be a good way of saying, "We're sorry we
messed this
: one up, we don't think we damaged the frame but we should have been smart enough to check over the
: region for signs of damage. Glad you caught our mistake before anything serious happened. Won't
: happen again."

: Jon Isaacs

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. The shop owner left on vacation right after I picked up the
bike so I'll talk with him next week.

Kurt

10 Feb 2003 19:29:00 -0600 'A Muzi said:

You should calmly discuss with the owner the color of the new frame they are buying for you and
when they can promptly arrange the parts transfer.

It's not at all clear to me that anyone knows for sure whether this crack was there before the
headset replacement or not.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney said:

It's not at all clear to me that anyone knows for sure whether this crack was there before the
headset replacement or not.

Indeed. I have no clear idea of where the fault lies, but here's an option if recourse to the dealer
and manufacturer is unavailaing:

I had a customer come in with some kind of high-end Italian aluminum MTB, can't recall which famous
brand (one that is much better known for road bikes.) This bike had the same problem, a crack in the
aluminum head tube.

I located the end of the crack and drilled a small hole just past it. Don't recall the drill size,
probably 1/8", maybe 3/16" This stopped the end of the crack from acting as a stress riser.

I made it clear to her that this could not be a guaranteed repair, and, indeed, I did not charge for
it. I advised her strongly to check regularly to see if the crack progressed past the hole. It has
been soemthing over a year, and its still OK.

Sheldon "This Is Only A Drill" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
| If Stupidity got us into this mess, | then why can't it get us out? | -- Will Rogers |
+-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Epilogue...

After considering all the responses and knowing that this bike has been crashed, and further knowing
that I have had problems with the headset staying tight I have concluded that either the headtube
was already cracked (and the LBS missed it) or the metal was fatigued to the point that it cracked
when the headset was pressed in.

The LBS did not carry Raleigh but checked on frames from Trek and Redline. Neither were within my
price range so he refunded my money.

In the mean time I located another shop with a Raleigh frame in stock at a reasonable cost which I
will probably go for.

Kurt Fankhauser <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I took my Raleigh R-300 aluminum bike into my LBS to have the headset replaced. When I got it home
: I noticed a bubble in the paint. Upon closer inspection I found that the top of the headtube had
: about a 1/2 inch long crack where the top bearing was pressed in. My understanding is that the
: frame, being aluminum, is basically toast.

: Is it at all common to have a failure like this when replacing a headset? Is the totally the bike
: shop's fault or could the tubing have been fatigued? This was my rain bike and although not
: glamorous it was a good worker. How would a reliable bike shop handle this situation?