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Crackdown on cyclists nets #3000

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UK and Europe
Published
23 May 2007
Last activity
10 August 2007
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Geraint Jones
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  1. Do you remember those road safety adverts which involved UFOs from,
    er UFO (the Gerry Anderson UFO), just over the brow of a hill, or
    just around a blind corner? Somehow I am reminded of them by:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/oxfordshire/6685903.stm (text below)
    http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1421251.0.93_cyclists_caught_jumping_lights.php (text below)

    The first junction (25 cyclists) has a set of traffic lights at a
    crossroads in the middle of town where the main flow of traffic is
    between two roads at right-angles to each other and the main flow
    of cyclists is in all directions at once. It also has the distinction
    of having been the first ASL anywhere near here and for many years
    had both a misleading green bicycle aspect permanently lit at a set
    of lights at the motorists' stop line and also a blue-and-white
    rectangle sign with a protracted essay on it about how to use the
    junction.

    The second junction, 68 cyclists, is a hundred yards away at a
    T-junction where main traffic flow is between one branch and the
    leg of the T, but a disconcerting number cyclist routinely cycle
    across the top of the T through red lights. It used to be
    uncontrolled, and hwne it was there was a regular - perhaps monthly,
    perhaps fortnightly, I forget - collision between cyclists and turning
    motor vehicles.

    There is a proposal to make both these junctions open spaces with
    no signage and a vague suggestion of a roundabout in the colour of
    the road (but with insufficient room to treat the junction as a
    roundabout). It'll be carnage.

    [ I declare an interest: I once rode through a red light. ]

    -------------------
    Crackdown on cyclists nets #3000

    Almost 100 cyclists have been fined close to #3000 for ignoring a single
    set of traffic lights in Oxford.

    The police operation on Wednesday was triggered by complaints from
    the public about the number of cyclists jumping the lights at one city
    centre location.

    In just three hours, Thames Valley Police said the cyclists kept them so
    busy they ran out of tickets.

    The crackdown comes a month after a high-achieving student was killed in
    a collision while cycling in the city.

    'Pay attention'

    Oxford University student Tsz Fok, who was in his 20s, and had seven A
    levels at grade A, and 10 A starred GCSEs, was found dead in Oxford city
    centre on 18 April after colliding with a dust cart.

    Police said 93 people were fined #30 each after they were caught
    ignoring the lights.

    Some cyclists agreed with the need to be more careful.

    One said: "The red lights aren't there for us to obey at our discretion.
    They're there to stop accidents."

    Another said: "In general principle, it's a good idea because it does
    encourage road safety."

    "I still think it's perfectly safe to do what I did"
    Cyclist fined in the crackdown

    But one cyclist who was pulled over and fined did not agree.

    "I still think it's perfectly safe to do what I did," she said.

    Pc Steven Higa, of Thames Valley Police, said: "At the end of the day,
    get off the ipod, stop texting your girlfriend or boyfriend, and pay
    attention to the lights.

    "It'll save you seconds, but in the long run it could save your life."

    -------------------
    93 cyclists caught jumping lights By Matt Wilkinson

    A mother carrying a baby on her bike was among more than 90 cyclists
    caught jumping red lights yesterday at the scene of a fatal accident in
    Oxford.

    Police said they were handing out fines 'like confetti' after 93
    cyclists were given #30 fixed penalty fines for running red lights in
    Broad Street and Parks Road, where student cyclist Tsz Fok was killed
    last month.

    Halfway through the stop-check, officers ran out of penalty tickets
    because so many had been caught ignoring the lights and at one stage
    cyclists were queuing to receive their fines and warnings from officers.

    Pc Steven Higa said some of the cyclists fined were wearing earphones or
    texting on their mobile phones at the time.

    He added: "Horrifyingly one lady with a baby on the rear of her bike
    rode through a red light."

    Plain clothes officers waited at the traffic lights on the junction of
    Catte Street, Holywell Street, Broad Street and Parks Road, and at red
    lights on Parks Road, between 8.30am and 11.30am. advertisement

    When cyclists were spotted going through red lights, officers radioed
    ahead to colleagues who pulled riders over, fined them #30, and gave
    verbal warnings and advice on road safety.

    In just three hours, 25 cyclists were fined at the Broad Street
    junction, and 68 for going through the red lights on Parks Road, just
    under one every two minutes.

    The total amount of fines handed out to cyclists was #2,790.

    Pc Higa said a majority of the cyclists stopped said they were late and
    had been rushing.

    He added: "I'm astonished and shocked at the result. We will now be at
    more locations at different areas in the city centre.

    "People make a choice. That choice is 'do I stop at the lights and lose
    a couple of seconds, or do I go through the red lights and save a couple
    of seconds?' "At the end of the day, if you go through the lights and
    have a collision you can end up losing more than just a few seconds.

    "We didn't envisage stopping so many. We thought it would be about 40.
    When it became clear the number of tickets we had were insufficient, we
    had to send back to get more. We were giving them out like confetti."

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    After yesterday's stop-check many cyclists said they supported the
    fines.

    Ido Isrealowich, 35, a student at Wadham College, said: "As painful as
    it might be, people should be fined because it is dangerous. I try not
    to go through red lights but I'm not the Pope."

    Leo Hoole, 27, of Marston, said: "It's a good idea, there was an
    accident here, and getting a ticket certainly makes you think."

    Paul Gee, 20, of Wadham College, said: "I would have to say I
    occasionally go through red lights on pedestrian crossings but I try not
    to."

  2. On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Geraint Jones wrote:

    [ description of highly questionable use of police efforts snipped ]

    10p says TrollB will be along shortly (having taken a break from defending
    the high-heeled cyclist killer) to applaud this waste of time.

  3. On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

  4. Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Further, Oxford council had been asked to improve the design of the
    junction, which had been the scene of a number of non-fatal accidents,
    but because there were no fatalities, it was low down on the priority
    list. Besides, a pedestrian phase in the lights would impede motor
    traffic flow.

    I guess it's a lot easier to blitz cyclist for unrelated offences than
    to grasp the nettles which caused this fatality -- poor road design,
    cyclists who cuddle up to lorries' left hand side, lorries without
    blind-spot mirrors or drivers who use them, dustcarts without
    side-skirts.

    The subliminal (and IMHO intentional) message in this exercise is that
    cyclists are responsible for their own demise because they ride
    irresponsibly ("Idiots at large on our roads" screams the Oxford Mail).
    It neatly deflects the spotlight from Oxford council's failings and
    motorists' responsibilities.

  5. in message <[email hidden]>, Marc Brett

    (') said:
    Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Was there a left hand entry lane into an ASL box? If so, the council
    official responsible for having it painted should be on a manslaughter
    charge as well.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Q: Whats a webmaster?
    A: Like a spider, but nowhere near as intelligent.

  6. Marc Brett said:
    Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.


    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Further, Oxford council had been asked to improve the design of the
    junction, which had been the scene of a number of non-fatal accidents,
    but because there were no fatalities, it was low down on the priority
    list. Besides, a pedestrian phase in the lights would impede motor
    traffic flow.

    I guess it's a lot easier to blitz cyclist for unrelated offences than
    to grasp the nettles which caused this fatality -- poor road design,
    cyclists who cuddle up to lorries' left hand side, lorries without
    blind-spot mirrors or drivers who use them, dustcarts without
    side-skirts.

    The subliminal (and IMHO intentional) message in this exercise is that
    cyclists are responsible for their own demise because they ride
    irresponsibly ("Idiots at large on our roads" screams the Oxford Mail).
    It neatly deflects the spotlight from Oxford council's failings and
    motorists' responsibilities.


    Good points. However, we still can't ignore the fact that if the
    cyclists had obeyed the red traffic lights then the poilice would not
    have collected any fines and there would have been no screaming
    headlines in the papers and Oxford council would be fully exposed about
    its failings. I know that motorists probably have the worse behaviour
    with more disatrous consequences, but we can't use others bad behaviour
    to justify our own. If we improve our behaviour we won't give "them" any
    opportunity to complain about us.

  7. Marc Brett said:
    Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    [snip]

    Very. And something we can expect to increase given the new draft
    Highway Code's advice to (I paraphrase) "try to get to the ASL wherever
    possible even if the access path, which you should also use wherever
    possible, takes you down the nearside of a large/long vehicle".

    Peter

    --
    www.amey.org.uk

  8. Rob Horton yahoo@mr_horton.com said:
    Marc Brett said:

    On Thu, 24 May 2007 02:27:40 +0100, Marc Brett
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)
    wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    > a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    > stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.
    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    Quoted message said:

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Quoted message said:

    Further, Oxford council had been asked to improve the design of the
    junction, which had been the scene of a number of non-fatal accidents,
    but because there were no fatalities, it was low down on the priority
    list. Besides, a pedestrian phase in the lights would impede motor
    traffic flow.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess it's a lot easier to blitz cyclist for unrelated offences than
    to grasp the nettles which caused this fatality -- poor road design,
    cyclists who cuddle up to lorries' left hand side, lorries without
    blind-spot mirrors or drivers who use them, dustcarts without
    side-skirts.

    Quoted message said:

    The subliminal (and IMHO intentional) message in this exercise is that
    cyclists are responsible for their own demise because they ride
    irresponsibly ("Idiots at large on our roads" screams the Oxford Mail).
    It neatly deflects the spotlight from Oxford council's failings and
    motorists' responsibilities.

    Good points. However, we still can't ignore the fact that if the
    cyclists had obeyed the red traffic lights then the poilice would not
    have collected any fines and there would have been no screaming
    headlines in the papers and Oxford council would be fully exposed about
    its failings. I know that motorists probably have the worse behaviour
    with more disatrous consequences, but we can't use others bad behaviour
    to justify our own. If we improve our behaviour we won't give "them" any
    opportunity to complain about us.

    They. Not us. Why is it always the case that we must feel
    responsible
    for the actions of others? Do motorists have this group guilt
    problem?

  9. Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    more than likely, though it has to be said, i don't have any sympathy
    for red light running. it's a bad idea.

    roger

  10. Simon Brooke said:

    Was there a left hand entry lane into an ASL box? If so, the council
    official responsible for having it painted should be on a manslaughter
    charge as well.

    A feeder lane into an ASL box is a mandatory feature and is the only
    legal way for a cyclists to enter an ASL box when the lights are red.

    www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tslegislation/circular022003trafficsignsre4177
    Page 8
    "Cyclists may only enter the reservoir ahead of the first stop line
    via the cycle lane."

    The feeder lane is usually on the left and may only be a few feet
    long.
    www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lcds_appendixc.pdf
    [4.5Mb download]
    Page 17

  11. _ said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Geraint Jones wrote:

    [ description of highly questionable use of police efforts snipped ]

    10p says [Matt]B will be along shortly (having taken a break from defending
    the high-heeled cyclist killer) to applaud this waste of time.

    I've never defended any cyclist killer - high-heeled or otherwise.
    Please retract that outrageous claim.

    As for the Police crackdown. I gather they had to respond to a public
    outcry.

    They would probably rather be tackling more serious issues, but they now
    work to numerical targets, and their performance is also appraised on
    public opinion. Easy pickings, and public opinion, I guess, will
    influence their choice of work.

    --
    Matt B

  12. Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
    [email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

    Quoted message said:

    Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
    a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
    stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

    The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
    dangerous driving.

    Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

    If there was a public outcry, on the same scale as that against RLJing
    cyclists, I'm sure they would look at lorry drivers too. They are
    measured against public perception, and quantity of convictions.

    --
    Matt B

  13. On Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:53 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    A feeder lane into an ASL box is a mandatory feature and is the only
    legal way for a cyclists to enter an ASL box when the lights are red.

    That may or may not be the case in England. Here there are a growing
    number without such lanes, which is I think sensible.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  14. I was sat at this very junction this morning, as I often am. I am
    really quite often the only 'sitter' but today there were a few more.
    I let out a 'tut' at a cyclist who broke a red at a great speed. A guy
    next to me said "No no, it's okay for him to jump a red because
    accidents happen to other people. It won't ever happen to him". So
    true of many attitudes out on the roads.

    It's a great shame because in Oxford, the bike is king and the roads
    are teaming with avid cyclists. It's just a same that so many feel
    waiting for green is a waste of time.

    However, I must echo the point that lorries at the junction in
    question are idiots. There aren't many HGVs that use it, but for the
    once or twice a day there is one, they are slightly less than
    considerate. The trouble with the junction is that it is very open on
    three sides.....but Hollywell road is quite hidden and anything
    speeding out of there simply won't be seen in time. False sense of
    safety.

  15. On Thu, 24 May 2007 09:25:25 +0100, [email hidden] (Roger

    Merriman) said:

    i don't have any sympathy for red light running. it's a bad idea.

    It seems like an obviously bad idea, but like helmet wearing, there is
    some cast doubt on this common sense conclusion, especially given the
    TfL paper saying red-light jumpers (not runners) may be safer than those
    who stick to the letter of the law.

    But it's a hot-button issue with both pedestrians and motorists, so
    makes for good headlines in the red tops.

  16. On Thu, 24 May 2007 08:54:52 +0100, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Marc Brett

    (') said:

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Was there a left hand entry lane into an ASL box? If so, the council
    official responsible for having it painted should be on a manslaughter
    charge as well.

    Hard to tell from the picture on http://maps.live.com/ but it looks like
    there are oversize double yellow lines which go around that corner,
    (Parks Road & Broad Street) which might be mistaken for a cycle path. I
    can't see a filter lane to the ASL.

  17. Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
    | in message <[email hidden]>, Marc Brett
    | ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
    | > On Thu, 24 May 2007 02:27:40 +0100, Marc Brett
    | > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    | >>
    | >>Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?
    | >
    | > Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    | > lorry. How familiar is that?
    |
    | Was there a left hand entry lane into an ASL box? If so, the council
    | official responsible for having it painted should be on a manslaughter
    | charge as well.

    Point of information: afaik a left-hand approach to the ASL couldn't have
    been directly involved in the collision in question. There is an ASL only
    for southbound traffic; the lorry involved in that collision was turning
    left from eastbound to northbound. Most motor traffic is east-to-north or
    south-to-west, but there is also substantial cycle traffic directly across
    the junction in each direction. The lights provide three phases: southbound
    only, northbound only, and east-west, with no pedestrian phases. The road
    is marked with tradition (small squares) pedestrian crossing lanes, which
    almost nobody seems to understand any more, and which many of the cyclists
    who don't run red lights treat as an informal ASL.

    [ For anyone who wants to know, there is a left-hand approach to the ASL, ]
    [ from the world's narrowest advisory cycle lane, in places just south of ]
    [ the other junction it is about eight inches of tarmac with a cobbled and ]
    [ paved gutter to the left of it. The approach lane runs alongside a cycle ]
    [ park with bikes parked perpendicular to and tight up against the kerb, ]
    [ so the ASL approach is often full of pedestrians trying to cross to or ]
    [ from the pub, or cyclists trying to extricate bicycles from a congested ]
    [ cycle rack.) ]

  18. David Hansen said:

    On Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:53 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    A feeder lane into an ASL box is a mandatory feature and is the only
    legal way for a cyclists to enter an ASL box when the lights are red.

    That may or may not be the case in England. Here there are a growing
    number without such lanes, which is I think sensible.

    Please note that very often the feeder lane is barely noticable, being
    a broken diagonal line only a foot or two long.

    The Scottish guidance only gives examples with feeder lanes.
    www.scotland.gov.uk/library2/cbd/cbd-15.asp

    It makes no mention of how a cyclist can access the reservior, when
    the lights are red, if there is no feeder lane. It would take a
    revision in law to allow cyclists to cross the first stop line on red.

  19. Marc Brett said:

    On Thu, 24 May 2007 08:54:52 +0100, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Marc Brett

    (') said:

    Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
    lorry. How familiar is that?

    Was there a left hand entry lane into an ASL box? If so, the council
    official responsible for having it painted should be on a manslaughter
    charge as well.

    Hard to tell from the picture on http://maps.live.com/ but it looks like
    there are oversize double yellow lines which go around that corner,
    (Parks Road & Broad Street) which might be mistaken for a cycle path. I
    can't see a filter lane to the ASL.

    www.chem.ox.ac.uk/oxfordtour/panohtml/oppositewadham.html

    If you pan around, there's an optional cycle lane one side and a sign
    indicating the start of a feeder lane on the other side.

  20. Quoted message said:

    I was sat at this very junction this morning, as I often am. I am
    really quite often the only 'sitter' but today there were a few more.
    I let out a 'tut' at a cyclist who broke a red at a great speed. A guy
    next to me said "No no, it's okay for him to jump a red because
    accidents happen to other people. It won't ever happen to him". So
    true of many attitudes out on the roads.

    It's a great shame because in Oxford, the bike is king and the roads
    are teaming with avid cyclists. It's just a same that so many feel
    waiting for green is a waste of time.

    However, I must echo the point that lorries at the junction in
    question are idiots. There aren't many HGVs that use it, but for the
    once or twice a day there is one, they are slightly less than
    considerate. The trouble with the junction is that it is very open on
    three sides.....but Hollywell road is quite hidden and anything
    speeding out of there simply won't be seen in time. False sense of
    safety.

    Let us not forget that if there was no motor traffic there would be
    few traffic lights. Traffic lights are designed to control motor
    traffic.

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