Could Vino Be Innocent?

Riders ought to crash more then, if the consequences are massive fluctuations in performance day by day :eek:

That doesnt explain where the other type of red blood cells come from. I mean if his body did regenerate as you say, one wouldn't find someone else's red blood cells in him would one? ie he tested postive for homologous blood doping, not autologous.

He is a dirty cheat, end of.

Incidently did anyone see the interview with Millar before the stage started on british eurosport today? He said the only reason he was caught is that someone made a mistake with the blood transfusion, specifically implying that he was injected with someone else's blood by mistake. Seems to me a rider in the peloton would know exactly what went on... I'm sure i read this theory in the vino sticky... good enough as conformation for me anyway.

Dead Star said:

Riders ought to crash more then, if the consequences are massive fluctuations in performance day by day :eek:

point taken. his performances were enough to raise eyebrows. he think he is a cheat. i was just wondering if these circomstances could be possible. astana has not claimed this defense. i was simply wondering on my own.

yeloooooo said:

That doesnt explain where the other type of red blood cells come from. I mean if his body did regenerate as you say, one wouldn't find someone else's red blood cells in him would one? ie he tested postive for homologous blood doping, not autologous.

He is a dirty cheat, end of.

here's the thing. the test only implies a homologous transfusion. what was actually found in vinos test was a combination of old and new red blood cells. the new red blood cells indicating the likelihood of a homologous transfusion. dna testing was not implemented. which goes back to my original question.

I dont think so.. It was two different types of red blood cells and I dont see any way that a foreign type enters your body by non artificial means. And with the results from stage 15 backing the first a lab error is out of the question as well.

Klodifan said:

here's the thing. the test only implies a homologous transfusion. what was actually found in vinos test was a combination of old and new red blood cells. the new red blood cells indicating the likelihood of a homologous transfusion. dna testing was not implemented. which goes back to my original question.

mm.. cant answer that , dont have the knowledge for it. But unlikely is an understatement.

Klodifan said:

ok, enough with the rolling eyes. and let me preface this by saying i am not a vino fan. he screwed klodi over in more ways than one during this tour. but that is besides the point for this thread.

i would appreciate mature replies as i know this question will leave me open to ridicule. i am obviously not in the medical profession nor do i profess expertise on the time lapse of red cell regeneration.

this is my question. vino stated he is innocent. a typical response from all later to be proven dopers. however, he also coupled that remark with the possibility of his injury and the influx of blood in his thighs that could have produced a false positive. from what i have read, he failed the test b/c old and new blood cells were detected which implies a homologous blood transfusions. dna comparisons were not made. is it even detectable? anyways, considering the body had gone through trauma, (his crash), and considering he probably lost a lot of blood as a result, is it possible that the body went into healing mode and overcompensated for the blood loss, regenerating itself, thus skewing an otherwise negative result into a positive one?

discuss...

No, I think you (and Vino) are wrong. The test for homologous blood transfusions is not to measure the ratio of mature/new rbc. AFAIK what is typically done is to measure the immunoresponse using some types of antigenes. Two types of blood=two spikes in the curve.

It is possible to extract DNA from the blood and compare to the donor's DNA. I'm not sure this could be done though, since, first of all, the Astana team has left the country, and second, they won't have the authority to take DNA samples from non-riders of the team (or any suspected 'donor'😉. I'd say, there's no chance that Vino's story has any merit.

Btw. how would they make Vino pay 1 year salary when they let him out of the country? At least Moreni was taken into custody. Same with Sinkewitz? How can they enforce the penalty?

Sure maybe. I'm not a doctor and simply don't care enough about his innocense to expend more effort than is required to talk briefly about it on the net. Let the examiners and those close decide, because to him it's important.

My guess is he's guilty as sin and ultimately that judgement will come to stand.

No, he tested positive again for the same blood doping as the Albi TT after his stage 15 win, it was still in his system.

Eagle of Toledo said:

No, he tested positive again for the same blood doping as the Albi TT after his stage 15 win, it was still in his system.

well, if the premise of my hypothesis is possible, or course it would still be in his system. the question is if it is possible. i think from a research persepctive it is an interesting point of study. regarding vino, its probably improbable.

As I understand it the test for homologous blood doping is fairly bullet proof. I believe I read that the same process is used in hospitals every day. With the additional test for stage 15 he is screwed.

Klodifan said:

well, if the premise of my hypothesis is possible, or course it would still be in his system. the question is if it is possible. i think from a research persepctive it is an interesting point of study. regarding vino, its probably improbable.

Short answer is NO! The test is not confounded with blood loss or addition. It's a test that is essentially impossible to defeat. That's why I was so surprised he got caught...you'd think he'd know better.