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Coroner condemns Hell Ride

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Australia and New Zealand
Published
26 July 2007
Last activity
27 July 2007
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Dorfus Dippintush
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  1. http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/coroner-condemns-hell-ride/2007/07/26/1185339132250.html

    State Coroner Graeme Johnstone has found the death of an elderly man
    struck down by a cyclist on Melbourne's notorious Hell Ride was
    "unnecessary and preventable".

    Mr Johnstone said the ride, which speeds along Beach Road through
    bayside suburbs, had "degenerated into a disorganised race."

    There was no "effective leadership" to oversee the safety of riders and
    pedestrians, he said.

    Cyclist's behaviour during the ride was indicative of a "high risk
    event" that had no place on suburban streets. The large numbers of bikes
    travelling at speed suggested authorities needed to take control of the
    event, he said.

    Unless riders changed their behaviour and stopped running red lights, it
    was "only a matter of time" before a "catastrophic event" between a car
    and a group of cyclists occurred, Mr Johnstone said.

    In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling" statistics
    which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    'Pack mentality'

    The Coronial inquest was prompted by the death of James Gould, 77 who
    died after he was struck by cyclist William Raisin-Shaw as he tried to
    cross a pedestrian crossing at Beach Road, Mentone, in August last year.

    Mr Raisin-Shaw, 31, of St Kilda, was one of up to 200 cyclists taking
    part in the Hell Ride - an informal, weekly 75-kilometre high-speed ride
    through Melbourne's bayside suburbs.

    He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge that
    carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the Melbourne
    Magistrates' Court next month.

    Mr Raisin-Shaw declined to give evidence at the inquest but his lawyer
    Michael Sharpley told the court last May that his client found himself
    "between a rock and a hard place" with riders behind him yelling at him
    to continue through the crossing, despite the fact the light had already
    turned red.

    "His view was that to brake heavily, in circumstances where those behind
    had clearly signalled their intentions, would inevitably cause an
    accident - potentially a serious one, involving a number of cyclists,"
    Mr Sharpley said in his submission.

    During the inquest Mr Johnstone condemned the ride, saying a dangerous
    "pack mentality" existed among cyclists.

    Accident 'extremely rare'

    President of Cycling Sport Victoria, Klaus Mueller, said it would be a
    "double tragedy" if Beach Road did not become the world's safest road
    for cyclists and pedestrians after Mr Gould's death.

    "Behaviour even within the Hell Ride has improved dramatically over
    recent years and I think it has improved further with this tragic
    incident," he told reporters outside court.

    But Mr Mueller said it was up to cyclists to take individual
    responsibility for their own and others' safety when riding in packs.

    "Every rider out there must recognise that they have got to comply with
    the rules. They are individually responsible for making sure that they
    don't run red lights or disobey the rules. They can't abrogate that
    responsibility to the larger group," Mr Mueller said.

    He said it was extremely rare for a cyclist to kill a pedestrian and
    hoped Mr Gould's death would remain an isolated incident.

    "In statistical terms, it's an extremely rare event for a cyclist to
    kill or hurt another road user. It's the cyclists themselves who are far
    and away the most vulnerable when they break the road rules."

    Julia Medew

  2. Dorfus Dippintush said:

    He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge that
    carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the Melbourne
    Magistrates' Court next month.

    Is that all?

  3. Terryc said:
    Dorfus Dippintush said:

    He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge that
    carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the Melbourne
    Magistrates' Court next month.

    Is that all?

    Not much different to what you get when you run over a cyclist these days.

  4. quote='Dorfus Dippintush'Terryc said:
    Dorfus Dippintush said:

    He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge that
    carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the Melbourne
    Magistrates' Court next month.

    Is that all?

    Not much different to what you get when you run over a cyclist these days.[/QUOTE]

    WHen I was taken out and my bike destroyed, the female p plate driver got a $150 fine and lost 3 dermit points. No insurance, nothing what so ever.

    It's still a disgrace though, we thank the government for that, for having no law in place to put the scumbag behind bars.

  5. Dorfus Dippintush said:


    http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/coroner-condemns-hell-ride/2007/07/26/1185339132250.html

    State Coroner Graeme Johnstone has found the death of an elderly man
    struck down by a cyclist on Melbourne's notorious Hell Ride was
    "unnecessary and preventable".

    Mr Johnstone said the ride, which speeds along Beach Road through
    bayside suburbs, had "degenerated into a disorganised race."

    There was no "effective leadership" to oversee the safety of riders and
    pedestrians, he said.

    Cyclist's behaviour during the ride was indicative of a "high risk
    event" that had no place on suburban streets. The large numbers of bikes
    travelling at speed suggested authorities needed to take control of the
    event, he said.

    Unless riders changed their behaviour and stopped running red lights, it
    was "only a matter of time" before a "catastrophic event" between a car
    and a group of cyclists occurred, Mr Johnstone said.

    In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling" statistics
    which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    'Pack mentality'

    The Coronial inquest was prompted by the death of James Gould, 77 who
    died after he was struck by cyclist William Raisin-Shaw as he tried to
    cross a pedestrian crossing at Beach Road, Mentone, in August last year.

    Mr Raisin-Shaw, 31, of St Kilda, was one of up to 200 cyclists taking
    part in the Hell Ride - an informal, weekly 75-kilometre high-speed ride
    through Melbourne's bayside suburbs.

    He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge that
    carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the Melbourne
    Magistrates' Court next month.

    Mr Raisin-Shaw declined to give evidence at the inquest but his lawyer
    Michael Sharpley told the court last May that his client found himself
    "between a rock and a hard place" with riders behind him yelling at him
    to continue through the crossing, despite the fact the light had already
    turned red.

    "His view was that to brake heavily, in circumstances where those behind
    had clearly signalled their intentions, would inevitably cause an
    accident - potentially a serious one, involving a number of cyclists,"
    Mr Sharpley said in his submission.

    During the inquest Mr Johnstone condemned the ride, saying a dangerous
    "pack mentality" existed among cyclists.

    Accident 'extremely rare'

    President of Cycling Sport Victoria, Klaus Mueller, said it would be a
    "double tragedy" if Beach Road did not become the world's safest road
    for cyclists and pedestrians after Mr Gould's death.

    "Behaviour even within the Hell Ride has improved dramatically over
    recent years and I think it has improved further with this tragic
    incident," he told reporters outside court.

    But Mr Mueller said it was up to cyclists to take individual
    responsibility for their own and others' safety when riding in packs.

    "Every rider out there must recognise that they have got to comply with
    the rules. They are individually responsible for making sure that they
    don't run red lights or disobey the rules. They can't abrogate that
    responsibility to the larger group," Mr Mueller said.

    He said it was extremely rare for a cyclist to kill a pedestrian and
    hoped Mr Gould's death would remain an isolated incident.

    "In statistical terms, it's an extremely rare event for a cyclist to
    kill or hurt another road user. It's the cyclists themselves who are far
    and away the most vulnerable when they break the road rules."

    Julia Medew

    The hypocrisy of the law is breathtaking sometimes.

    The law may very well complain about the mob mentality
    of cyclists when they get together in a large buch,
    and whinge about a pedestrian being killed.

    But what of the road toll? thousands get killed each year in Oz,
    and before worrying too much about cyclists, why not focus on the mob
    mentality
    of car, truck and bus drivers?

    I am well aware of the kind of thing that happens when you get 50
    cyclists together.
    Her in the ACT I comperted for 6 years and often did summer morning
    criteriums
    after which there would be a group ride, and some days there would be 60
    ppl.
    But our behaviour on main roads was exemplary, with pacemakers at the
    front
    going steady and observing lights. But once just out of town, the route
    went down a country road,
    Majura Lane, and often it turned to being a race for those with itchy
    legs.
    But there were no lights or pedestrians to worry about.
    One morning, after I went off ahead of those slower in the bunch a mob
    of sheep entered the road space,
    and several ppl ploughed into them, one breaking an arm. No sheep were
    killed or seriously hurt.

    Usually those taking part in this mellee ride after the morning's crits
    waited at the Lane end where
    it joined back into the busy road network, and the ride proceeded
    therafter for another 50k with leaders
    taking it steady and waiting for the slow coaches, and stopping for
    those who punctured, and obeying the lights.

    There has always been an antagonistic attitude against cyclists by SOME
    motorists
    ever since the car replaced the bicycle which was king between about
    1890 and 1920.

    Here they put in cycle lanes on the main roads here during the last 10
    years and
    still there are letter writers to newspapers complaining about the
    dimunition of car driver's rights.
    Many motorists want cyclists banned off roads altogether.
    Never do you hear car drivers spelling it out to their bretheren about
    the duty of care
    they have to all others. Rights cannot be assumed without the duty of
    care.

    If I had a dollar for each time a motorist has threatened my life I'd be
    rich.
    Its two sided though, because what cyclists do which may cause an
    accident
    and often because of motorist action to avoid hitting a cyclist.
    No wonder some car drivers get mad at cyclists!

    I have watched in dismay when a cyclist has disobeyed a traffic signal
    to edge across a road against the red light without checking the light's
    sequences
    with turning traffic, and thus putting risk to himself and the motorist
    who must avoid him,
    or stop suddenly and risk getting rear ended.

    Here in the ACT, with population of 330,000, we have an extensive
    network of "recreation paths" which are for walkers, riders et all,
    and I can cycle way across town while spending only 10% of the 80km
    journey
    on a public road. Every kilometre I have to deal with someone walking a
    dog,
    or a toddler, or a woman pushing a pram, walkers, but its all better
    than dealing with cars.
    Iv'e nearly rung the ring out of my bell alerting people ahead
    cluttering my progress. They welcome that courtesy, as it avoids the
    argy bargy.

    Perhaps some serious roadway changes could be made to better accomodate
    the cyclist
    rather than penalizing all of them for the inevitable accidents when
    many
    of them gather to ride together.

    I own and drive a car, but I'd like to see the budget allowances for
    cyclist increase rather than fall. Good for greenhouse too. With better
    bike paths, more of the fickle public might
    actually get off their backsides and ride.

    Patrick Turner.

  6. Dorfus Dippintush <[email hidden]> wrote in news:46a810f1_
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling" statistics
    which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    Um, I think this "blame the victim" interpretation is troubling. Surely
    the vast majority of these cyclist deaths are "from" motoring rather than
    cycling.

  7. MoreBikesPlease said:

    Dorfus Dippintush <[email hidden]> wrote in news:46a810f1_
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling" statistics
    which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    Um, I think this "blame the victim" interpretation is troubling. Surely
    the vast majority of these cyclist deaths are "from" motoring rather than
    cycling.


    We are reading the press view, and a few quotes (misquotes?)...

    I have access to an official copy from the Coroner, it is in the mail at this time...will digest and report on WoJ when to hand...meantime more of the usual misquote/misinterpret/redherrring scullduggery by the snailmedya...

  8. On Jul 26, 11:47 pm, rooman <rooman.2ub...@no-

    mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

    MoreBikesPlease Wrote:> Dorfus Dippintush <[email hidden]> wrote in

    Quoted message said:

    news:46a810f1_
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling"


    statistics

    Quoted message said:

    which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    Quoted message said:

    Um, I think this "blame the victim" interpretation is troubling. Surely
    the vast majority of these cyclist deaths are "from" motoring rather
    than
    cycling.

    We are reading the press view, and a few quotes (misquotes?)...

    I have access to an official copy from the Coroner, it is in the mail
    at this time...will digest and report on 'WoJ' (http://www.woj.com.au)
    when to hand...meantime more of the usual
    misquote/misinterpret/redherrring scullduggery by the snailmedya...

    --
    rooman

    Speaking of media portrayals, the ACT gove has been running a series
    of big yellow ads in newspapers about road safety issues, one issue
    per ad. Issues such as "speeding", "tailgating" and "cyclists". Huh, I
    am an issue like speeding? I'm still waiting for the ad that's about
    "cars" or "drivers". I think the gov had good intentions but it just
    makes cyclists look like illegitimate road users.

    Could maybe dig up the series if WoJ is interested...

  9. Simon said:

    Speaking of media portrayals, the ACT gove has been running a series
    of big yellow ads in newspapers about road safety issues, one issue
    per ad. Issues such as "speeding", "tailgating" and "cyclists". Huh, I
    am an issue like speeding? I'm still waiting for the ad that's about
    "cars" or "drivers". I think the gov had good intentions but it just
    makes cyclists look like illegitimate road users.

    Could maybe dig up the series if WoJ is interested...

    I've seem the green lane TV ads on You Tube, which were a reasonable effort, but if you can either get a copy or scan these other ad's it would be an interesting exercise to compare what the ACT govmint are attempting to promote. Regarding the yellow newspaper ads, were these all TAM's work or were they endorsed by Pedal Power, like the TV ads?

  10. On Jul 27, 12:34 pm, cfsmtb <cfsmtb.2uc...@no-

    mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:
    Simon said:

    Speaking of media portrayals, the ACT gove has been running a series
    of big yellow ads in newspapers about road safety issues, one issue
    per ad. Issues such as "speeding", "tailgating" and "cyclists". Huh, I
    am an issue like speeding? I'm still waiting for the ad that's about
    "cars" or "drivers". I think the gov had good intentions but it just
    makes cyclists look like illegitimate road users.

    Quoted message said:

    Could maybe dig up the series if WoJ is interested...

    I've seem the green lane TV ads on You Tube, which were a reasonable
    effort, but if you can either get a copy or scan these other ad's it
    would be an interesting exercise to compare what the ACT govmint are
    attempting to promote. Regarding the yellow newspaper ads, were these
    all TAM's work or were they endorsed by Pedal Power, like the TV ads?

    --
    cfsmtb

    I'll have a rummage through the waste paper when I get home tonight. I
    think they were TAMs, but I do remember a BUG report from John Warren
    mentioning something about it a few months ago before they were
    released. I don't think there's a BUG page in Canberra so I can't
    check. If I remember correctly, the issues John had were more to do
    with the content being directed more towards driver behaviour and
    emphasising that cyclists are legit road users. I'm not sure if they
    were discussed in the context of the series of ads though, which is
    the real "issue".

  11. Simon said:


    On Jul 26, 11:47 pm, rooman <rooman.2ub...@no-

    mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

    MoreBikesPlease Wrote:> Dorfus Dippintush <[email hidden]> wrote in

    Quoted message said:

    news:46a810f1_
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    > In delivering his findings, Mr Johnstone quoted "troubling"
    statistics
    > which showed there were 220 deaths from cycling since 2000.

    Quoted message said:

    Um, I think this "blame the victim" interpretation is troubling. Surely
    the vast majority of these cyclist deaths are "from" motoring rather
    than
    cycling.

    We are reading the press view, and a few quotes (misquotes?)...

    I have access to an official copy from the Coroner, it is in the mail
    at this time...will digest and report on 'WoJ' (http://www.woj.com.au)
    when to hand...meantime more of the usual
    misquote/misinterpret/redherrring scullduggery by the snailmedya...

    --
    rooman

    Speaking of media portrayals, the ACT gove has been running a series
    of big yellow ads in newspapers about road safety issues, one issue
    per ad. Issues such as "speeding", "tailgating" and "cyclists". Huh, I
    am an issue like speeding? I'm still waiting for the ad that's about
    "cars" or "drivers". I think the gov had good intentions but it just
    makes cyclists look like illegitimate road users.

    Could maybe dig up the series if WoJ is interested...

    Please give everyone a link if you can.

    I live here in the ACT and read the yellow blurbs the ACT Govt
    has placed in the papers.

    I have not ever gained the impression that cyclists should not speed,
    or tailgate.

    Over the last 10 years ACT Govt has installed cycle lanes on many busy
    roads.
    The classic road is Northbourne Ave, where thousands of cars commute in
    and out of the city each day.
    It was a main road established as a wide 6 lane road early in Canberra's
    history, and at
    a time when far less respect was given to cyclists but then also at a
    time when
    there was a very small population and tiny % of car ownership.

    Its now the busiest road here and suffers traffic jams.
    some years ago they moved all the 6 lanes closer together to squeeze the
    drivers closer
    together to make room for a 1.5M wide cycle lane to encourage ppl out of
    cars to ride to work.

    But if you sit on the roadside and observe at almost any time, there are
    hardly any cyclists
    using what was given to them.
    The only time I have ever seen a few cyclists is during peak hours
    before and after work
    mainly during warm dry weather. The appearance of a few clouds, or a day
    maximum of 8C
    has ppl choosing to drive their car.
    The busiest time I have seen is about 9am on a sunny summer morning and
    I've passed
    maybe 20 fellows riding to work slowly.
    I saw maybe 30 riding the other way in 7km from Watson to Civic.
    One morning I was elbowed out into the car lanes by some idiot on a
    mountain bike who didn't like being passed
    by an old guy like me. Many didn't like keeping over to allow passing.
    Another time saw me just get past a slow bunch but then 4 other cyclists
    turned into the lane
    from a side road, forcing me into the car lanes again.
    This was more utter stupidity from fellow cyclists.
    An irate car driver chased me and verbally abused me for the next 3km at
    lights
    when we stopped.
    I could go on, but just because lanes are given it doesn't mean humans
    will behave any better.
    So I avoid Northbourne Ave like the plague in peak hour times, and
    fortunately that's easy because
    I don't ride to work. Buses also stop in the cycle lanes to interfere
    with the flow,
    and one has to go out into the car lanes and around the bus, usually
    there is room,
    but its all a dance with death, and anyone slow witted can me mown down.

    Motorists continue to write letters to the paper complaining about
    having their road space
    reduced for the green left looney tune cycling monority of mainly angry
    young men.
    But I have driven a car down Northbourne, and had a bus on one side and
    a lorry on the other, and its not the slightest bit worse
    than Sydney or melbourne roads where traffic jams and tight clearances
    are really worth the complaints.
    So man ACT motorists act like incompetent spoiled brats much of the time
    as they have no
    experience of motoring conditions which would be really challenging.

    In the yellow adds, cyclists are spoken of without severe disrespect.

    However, very little firm road rules are cited, and very litle is being
    said about
    basic rights and duty of care, and about bunch behaviour,
    and riding two abreast. Nothing is said about cycle path locations or
    any other helpful
    information to persuade cyclists from roads that are suicidal to ride
    upon.

    In fact the yellow bloody adds are a ratepayers waste of money because
    they don't tell us any more
    than most ppl already know, and they don't want to agravate either
    cyclists or car drivers
    because both are fickle voters.

    So they spend this money doing what govermements do, ie, to be seen to
    be doing
    something when absolutely NOTHING IS BEING DONE to better the conditions
    of the
    very slowly increasing small minority number of brave souls who are
    strong and healthy enough
    to ride around on bicycles, mainly young men between 17 and 37.

    I began riding seriously for health this time last year after a 14 year
    layoff
    which was after a 6 year stint when I raced as a veteran.
    In the late 80s I averaged 300km a week WITHOUT ANY CYCLE LANES AND
    MOSTLY ON ROADS.
    Now that I am back into wheeling it, the presence of the lanes is a TRUE
    LIBERATION
    compared to the risks I took daily without them.

    Lots of people write to newspapers to complain about everything able
    to be complained about, and just because we have a
    Labour Government supposedly representing working
    and sporting people, it doesn't mean there is nothing to complain about.

    There are regular letters to papers complaining of the glass on roads,
    and how
    bad this is, and how ppl shouldn't throw bottles out of car windows.
    They never say what really ought to be done about it.
    Trouble is, ppl do misdemeanours that are un-policable.

    But bugger me, but ain't these folks heard about Vitoria Randonneur
    tyres?

    I rode about 6,000 Km in the last 12 months at least, and wore out
    ONE of these tyres right down to the red warning rubber layer.
    Only then did I get a puncture. A month later when it really was time to
    replace the tyre I got another.
    That is 2 lousy punctures in 12 months, and despite riding over roads
    and cycle paths littered with glass
    all along.
    Much of my rides were during the dry months before the drought broke,
    and without the natural rain washing effects
    of the roads.
    Road sweeping is rare, and a broken bottle will lay undisturbed for
    months.
    Far worse there occasional half brick, lump of concrete, piece of metal,
    lump of 4x2 that litter the edges of roads. One must keep one's
    eyes wide open and spot trouble a'coming.
    Oh, and pot holes.
    Anyway, glass is just part of the risk.

    Things used to be a heck of a lot worse before drink suppliers
    turned to the plastic bottle, because it was cheaper for them.

    I used to run 25mm thin light clinchers, because I could race on those
    as well as train,
    and used to get an average of a puncture a week,
    but I never once thought writing letters to a paper would give me less
    punctures.
    I even used singles to race on, but why I don't know; I am such a big
    heavy [censored]
    it probably made little difference to my times.

    The research I have done on the Web indicates the 28mm Vittoria tyres
    waste just
    1% more energy than the previous brands of tyres I once used which were
    so much
    more fragile.

    I get overtaken by very few other riders when I am out, especially in
    winter when the weekend
    athletes and triathletes all seem to be hibernating.
    So it appears the slightly more rugged tyres are not slowing me down
    much,
    and because I am not delayed by anything like as many punctures as I
    used to get
    I am getting more value for time spent on the bike.

    Despite MORE cars, lorries and buses, I can manage a 100+km a week
    without
    feeling I am risking my life too much.

    The biggest enemy is often ourselves, for not choosing the right place
    to go fast and hard,
    and for dicing with lights, and being in the wrong place at the wrong
    moment.

    Patrick Turner.

  12. cfsmtb said:


    Simon said:

    Speaking of media portrayals, the ACT gove has been running a series
    of big yellow ads in newspapers about road safety issues, one issue
    per ad. Issues such as "speeding", "tailgating" and "cyclists". Huh, I
    am an issue like speeding? I'm still waiting for the ad that's about
    "cars" or "drivers". I think the gov had good intentions but it just
    makes cyclists look like illegitimate road users.

    Could maybe dig up the series if WoJ is interested...

    I've seem the green lane TV ads on You Tube, which were a reasonable
    effort, but if you can either get a copy or scan these other ad's it
    would be an interesting exercise to compare what the ACT govmint are
    attempting to promote. Regarding the yellow newspaper ads, were these
    all TAM's work or were they endorsed by Pedal Power, like the TV ads?

    --
    cfsmtb

    A few folks I have spoken to think riding the green lanes is suicidal.
    Once your'e out in one without a rear vision mirror there is nowhere to
    go
    if a driver coming up behind you is late making up his mind about
    turning left,
    or gets confused, or just doesn't see you at all.

    But I've ridden the green lanes for a year and never been threatened.

    I rode a BMW R75/5 motorcycle in Sydney for 100,000 miles between age 23
    and 30.

    Poor brakes on a damned Matchless in 1965 broke my ankle. No more
    running for me.

    I have ridden at least 100,000 kms on bicycles, even one year in Sydney
    traffic in 1988.

    I am still here. [censored] happens, but maybe not today.

    Patrick Turner.

  13. Patrick Turner said:

    ........

    Wow... I agree the current ACT gov is very good (does the opposition
    still have a policy of removing all cycle lanes?). There is good and
    bad about cycle lanes too. The green lanes are only dangerous because
    the drivers here are so bad - there's not even a proper test to get
    your licence!

    It wasn't the one particular ad that I meant was the problem. It was
    it's context in the series of road issues. The fact the "cyclists"
    are put in the same bategory as speeding and tailgating was my issue,
    and it gives the suggestion that cyclists are a road problem.

  14. On 2007-07-26, MikeyOz (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

    Quoted message said:


    Dorfus Dippintush said:
    Terryc said:

    Dorfus Dippintush wrote:

    > He has been charged with failing to stop at a red light, a charge


    that

    Quoted message said:

    > carries a maximum fine of $215, and is due to appear in the


    Melbourne

    Quoted message said:

    > Magistrates' Court next month.

    Is that all?

    Not much different to what you get when you run over a cyclist these
    days.

    WHen I was taken out and my bike destroyed, the female p plate driver
    got a $150 fine and lost 3 dermit points. No insurance, nothing what
    so ever.

    Mine got nothing, and I didn't even scratch their fricking car.
    *That* [censored] me off.

    --
    TimC
    Chairman: We continue with an afternoon of numerical stimulations.
    -- An astronomy talk

  15. Simon said:


    Patrick Turner said:

    ........

    Wow... I agree the current ACT gov is very good (does the opposition
    still have a policy of removing all cycle lanes?). There is good and
    bad about cycle lanes too. The green lanes are only dangerous because
    the drivers here are so bad - there's not even a proper test to get
    your licence!

    The cycle lanes may just end up being scrapped by the existing Labour
    Governemnt who brought them in.

    Simon Corbell was mainly responsible, in an effort to foster people
    power and cycling
    to work and green things, and to fulfil expctations of the people.
    When he criticized the the proposal to re-cycle sewerage after
    processing back into the drinking supply
    our Chief Minister, the very Ghung Ho Jon Stanhope fired Corbell as fast
    as possible
    and out the door went the one guy with any sense of caution about water,
    and good news for cyclists.
    The replacement has said its a "town made for cars" and is the usual
    redneck rightwing loony.

    Stanhope does a lap on his bicycle each morning; its how he looks so
    fit, mean and intimidating.
    Well, they say he cycles each day, but maybe that's maybe what he makes
    the press think he does,
    in the hope of being seen as the cyclist's friend, and of course,
    cyclists vote.
    And there are lots of them. Australians purchased 1 million bicycles
    last year.

    The Liberal Opposition's stance cannot be relied upon to be for/against
    cycle lanes unless
    they see votes in it.

    The bumbling old farts on both Labour and Liberal sides govern us by
    taking turns to neglect
    system maintenance.
    The cycle path ideology and initial creation goes back to the
    1960s and 70s before self government and before the locals had to pay
    for their creation
    out of their own pockets.
    So thus the staid non green non cyclist friendly old [censored] who con
    their way into power
    just go on as if the system is fine and will care for itself by miracle.
    If the paths get real bumpy because of neglect, then folks will buy
    bikes with bigger tyres and suspension,
    or mountain bikes, or equivalent to what ppl used in 1910, but with
    modern things like index gears.

    The trouble is that once a system is created, abolition by neglect can
    cause an accident or a death,
    and its a false economy to sustain the legal claims of millions when
    some repairs
    or innovations could have prevented the bother for much less money.

    There is much that could be done to integrate the cycle path system to
    enable cyclists to get off the roads
    and back on easily from areas where danger is most present.
    I believe Canberra could learn much from Amsterdam.

    And its relatively flat here. A fit young rider has no trouble commuting
    all around Canberra on a bike with 48 x 18 gearing ( 72 inches ).

    I have just changed to 44 x 18, because I turn 60 next week, and
    now I really need the lower gear. I can't wait to get my other bike
    back together with this new fangled indexed gearing stuff on it.

    What [censored] me is that the Stanhope Government is so arrogant.
    They have huge plans to allow developers open slather to change the
    whole place my making it all so much more densely populated,
    and thus reap the benefits in far greater charges and taxes,
    but so little seems to be really being done to make it better for
    cyclists.

    I will give them credit for bringing in the cycle lanes though, even
    though they may backflip.

    And another thing they deserve some credit for is the grinding down of
    joints in the concrete
    paving slabs on so many of Canberras many many kilometres of cycle
    path/footpath network.
    Rather than pull up and replace old concrete, they have merely sent out
    a guy/s with a machine to grind and chamfer
    all the bumps in excess of 10mm so that now you really don't have to
    worry about buckling
    your rims when you go from road to cycle path.
    After a couple of years it seems that 99% have been gone over this way,
    saving a huge sum on immediate replacements.

    Bumps of 20mm can lead to people walking and tripping over and falling,
    and perhaps they did all that work because they knew they could be sued
    so easily.
    I am not sure of the motives. But anyway, there isn't a footpath I have
    found
    where I cannot ride tolerably, and many tarred country roads
    around Canberra are worse than the concrete paths.
    And the footpaths go for kilos well away from houses, and for long
    distances.
    Many are old and crumbling, so they just grind 'em down.
    Better than nothing.
    But one must keep one's eyes wide open 100% of the time!

    And its no wonder so many ignore the cycle paths. Its difficult to
    legislate
    a law and enforce it to make ppl use them. People take the risk on the
    road because it
    goes where they want to get to and its smoother and faster.
    You don't see many of the racing guys using cycle paths to train;
    it'd seem a sissy thing to do.
    Real men ride the road, ( where they are killed every now and then ).

    I'd be happy if compelled to use the paths only, but they'd have tp
    spend a huge amount
    to force ppl onto them, and with much access improvements.

    Without perfection we muddle through......

    Quoted message said:


    It wasn't the one particular ad that I meant was the problem. It was
    it's context in the series of road issues. The fact the "cyclists"
    are put in the same bategory as speeding and tailgating was my issue,
    and it gives the suggestion that cyclists are a road problem.

    I have to say I have not read all these adds, bt from the few I have
    read it seemed to me
    they were just part of a be seen to be educating the public, and what
    needed to be said was completely
    left out. What was said was just the same boring old lines,
    although much is common sense.

    I have seen too many shenanigans on the road caused by both cyclists and
    motorists
    to know that both can act stupidly, and without due care, and nothing
    much will ever change human nature and the way ppl change when they get
    behind a wheel,
    like Toad, Beep Beep!!, get out of my way!

    The government doesn't need to ever promote the idea that cyclists are a
    road problem.
    A large number of motorists are well convinced cyclists are a problem.
    The same ppl usually hate cats, muslims, asians, indigenous, and anyone
    who isn't normal.

    They whinge like hell when they see money being spent on cycle paths,
    yet they see cyclists on the damn road, where they think they shouldn't
    be.
    They see the cyclists as a special interest minority who should pay
    their own way,
    and use only what they pay for.
    I have been told quite often to "get orf the f----- road!!"

    One day this happened and I caught up to the guy at a set of lights,
    and asked him if had any more to say. He did, and said something
    unprintable about
    my mother. I quickly learnt in through his window, and spat right
    between his eyes.
    He was so stunned he froze, while I quickly backed away and crossed the
    road to a known escape route.
    Thinking this plan out took me just 2 seconds.
    His two dogs went beserko in his van when they smelt his rage, and he
    stalled trying to move from the lights.
    I watched at a distance as he fumbled in fury, and then he got out,
    shook a fist and yelled a bit more,
    and I urged him come follow me.
    But he wasn't that brave, or very fit. Only a young bloke. And he'd
    spilt his beer.
    I smiled and rode off, satisfied.

    I have to admit I should have not protested in reply to his attitude
    about my presence on a lonely stretch of road where there was a huge
    amount of room to pass me.
    I sometimes feel the same about abusive motorists now, but I now ain't
    so foolhardy to
    respond as I did. But I once bailed up a bus driver who'd cut me off by
    moving towards the curb
    too soon after passing me. Boy, did I let the [censored] have it about
    murder at the next lights.
    I fully shamed him in front of all his passengers, and hopefully he got
    a message....
    You just cannot go around casually killing cyclists.

    Many motorists spend 20% of their income on owning and running a car,
    and much time is spent earning the money for a motor,
    but they never complain about the poor average speed they attain when
    you add in the
    earning time just to pay for the motor. They don't realise their
    addiction.
    And its a catchy addiction too. India and China are trying desperately
    to get
    more mobile, and away from the farting bullock pulling the cart,
    and into something with a door, and plush seats, and to a new life of
    plenty.
    But all that is another deeper story, where every little man wants to be
    a big man.

    Australia has no shortage of the bigoted, the ignorant, the intolerant.
    But someone said to me once, the big bronze Aussie is mainly all bronze.

    Patrick Turner.

  16. Patrick Turner said:


    The government doesn't need to ever promote the idea that cyclists are a
    road problem.
    A large number of motorists are well convinced cyclists are a problem.
    The same ppl usually hate cats, muslims, asians, indigenous, and anyone
    who isn't normal.

    You'll get along fine with most folks on a.b.

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