Cornering question

Leo Lichtman said:

What I don't understand is why everyone talks about pushing *down* on one
side or the other. Don't you really push *forward?*

There are two actions going on, that which you consciously do, and what
you do unconsciously. You will naturally countersteer in order to induce
the lean. Everyone does, since you have to. Anyone who has learned to
ride a bike will do that without being aware that that is what they are
doing. The "pushing down" on one side or the other is just a way of
distributing your weight on the bike as you go into the turn. If you
"push down" on the inside of the bars, you are moving your shoulders and
upper body in a more vertical position, which will force you to lean your
lower body (and the bike) more to compensate, so your bike is leaning into
the turn more than necessary. Pushing down with outside arm helps keep
your upper body over the bike.

Similarly, I have always cornered with my outside pedal down. This has
another advantage, in that there is no chance of scraping the inside pedal
on the ground, which could happen if the road is banked negatively. But,
for me, it just feels better, probably because it keeps my body in the
plane of the bike.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
_`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
(_)/ (_) |

Richard Amirault said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on your
hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right). The
broom tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very quickly
follow the broom left. That's what a countersteered fast turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike.

Probably because it *is* better on a four wheeled vehicle, tricycle, etc.,
and people wrongly assume the same logic applies to single track vehicles.

Quoted message said:

You can balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is
on the top. If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes
very, very hard to balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

Yes, exactly.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Ken said:

"Bob Garrison" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Countersteering is pressing on the inside hand. To go left you press
left. To go right you press right. It's called countersteering because
you are pointing the front wheel in the direction which is counter to
the one you wish to go.

Your coach is teaching you wrong, too. To turn left (efficiently), you press
down with the right hand. Go to google.com and type in "countersteer bicycle".
You will find numerous articles describing countersteering in detail (and
mostly correctly).

To make a left turn by counter steering, you point the front wheel to the
right. This causes the bike to "fall" into a left turn. To point the front
wheel to the right your push with the left hand and/or pull with the right
hand.

Ben

"Ben Kaufman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

"Bob Garrison" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Countersteering is pressing on the inside hand. To go left you press
left. To go right you press right. It's called countersteering because
you are pointing the front wheel in the direction which is counter to
the one you wish to go.

Your coach is teaching you wrong, too. To turn left (efficiently), you

press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

down with the right hand. Go to google.com and type in "countersteer

bicycle".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You will find numerous articles describing countersteering in detail (and
mostly correctly).

To make a left turn by counter steering, you point the front wheel to

the

Quoted message said:

right. This causes the bike to "fall" into a left turn. To point the

front

Quoted message said:

wheel to the right your push with the left hand and/or pull with the

right

Quoted message said:

hand.

Ben

That's what I said.

"Richard Amirault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on your
hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right). The

broom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very quickly follow

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broom left. That's what a countersteered fast turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You can
balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is on the

top.

Quoted message said:

If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes very, very hard to
balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

Richard in Boston, MA, USA

Theoretically (well not theoretically - actually - since it just physics)
the lower COG means less effort is needed to bring the bike back into
balance once it starts to tip and less counterweight needs to be applied to
right it again. With a higher COG, when the bike starts to go over, you
need to be faster with your correction before it tips over, and you have to
be careful because of your quick reaction needed that you don't overcorrect
too forcefully and tip the bike the other way. Think of walking on the
ground vs. walking on a pair of 5 foot stilts.

Fred Hall said:

Theoretically (well not theoretically - actually - since it just physics)
the lower COG means less effort is needed to bring the bike back into
balance once it starts to tip and less counterweight needs to be applied
to right it again. With a higher COG, when the bike starts to go over,
you need to be faster with your correction before it tips over

You don't, though, because it doesn't tip as fast (angular velocity).

Quoted message said:

and you have to be careful because of your quick reaction needed that you
don't overcorrect too forcefully and tip the bike the other way. Think
of walking on the ground vs. walking on a pair of 5 foot stilts.

The only reason stilts can be tricky in this regard is because it's more
difficult to exert a restoring force once you start to tip. The analogy
with the balanced broomstick is a better one. Try it -- first balance a
regular broomstick vertically on your hand. Then cut off part of the broom
stick, leaving maybe half a foot or so, and try balancing this in the same
manner.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Cat Dailey said:

I went to a women's cycling clinic this weekend where we spent some
time doing cornering drills. Cornering has always been a weakness
of mine and no one has ever really "taught" me how to corner. I
noticed that in initiating the turn, I push down on my inside hand,
which seems to tip the bike into the turn. When I asked the coach
about this, he stated that pushing down on the inside hand was "old
school" turning and that he recommended pulling up on the outside
hand (outside leg is down and weighted in both styles). I tried his
way, which felt really awkward and sort of naturally gravitated back
to my "old school way". With the other pointers that he taught us,
my cornering improved dramatically and I felt really confident in
the turns. Later, another woman asked him about countersteering,
which he said was what I was doing by pushing down on my inside hand
and that he could teach her about it later. So what is the right
way to weight the bars, or not? And is there a consensus on a new,
improved way to corner?

There is no "trick" to cornering other than to not be afraid to lean
the bicycle. Knowing the limit halps too, but then few people ever
get close to the limit, being sure it is closer to their speed than it
is. You might find something useful in the following item:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Bob Garrison said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, I am sure I heard right. I am sure that I push on the inside
hand and the coach said that it was countersteering. If you push
down on the outside hand, how does that help you get your bike to
the inside? And this coach said DO NOT lean your body, only your
bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, after reading about pushing down on the outside hand, I tried
it, and found that it seemed to help. But it's not very natural to
me, and so I don't tend to do it regularly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, it is nonsense to try to not lean your body into
a turn. The only way you will turn is with the plane determined by
your center of mass and the tires in line with the net force
direction. Otherwise you will fall over. This is also true when
riding in a straight line. What the coach is suggesting really is
to lean the bike over further than it needs to be, which is not a
good idea.

Quoted message said:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CounterSteering

Don't read this item if you want to avoid hearing someone dither and
quote old myths mixed with motorcycling.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Ken who? said:

Quoted message said:

Countersteering is pressing on the inside hand. To go left you
press left. To go right you press right. It's called
countersteering because you are pointing the front wheel in the
direction which is counter to the one you wish to go.

Quoted message said:

Your coach is teaching you wrong, too. To turn left (efficiently),
you press down with the right hand. Go to google.com and type in
"countersteer bicycle". You will find numerous articles describing
countersteering in detail (and mostly correctly).

What does pressing down have to do with steering? If you want to turn
the handlebar, do so, but pressing down does nothing for the attitude
of the bicycle. This may work for riders unclear on what they do when
leaning on one end of the handlebar because it requires shifting body
weight to that side, somethng that can be done more easily by
steering. Besides, when cornering no-hands, how do you expect to push
down on one end of the handlebar?

Riding no-hands is the best way to observe what countersteering means
because it is visible... but first you need to learn how to ride
no-hands.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Richard Amirault said:

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on
your hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right).
The broom tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very
quickly follow the broom left. That's what a countersteered fast
turn is like.

Quoted message said:

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You
can balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is
on the top. If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes
very, very hard to balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a
bike?

It is not more stable nor does height limit cornering. People think a
low CG is an advantage because they are afraid of falling, falling
from a greater height. If the effect of height is not obvious, try
balancing a whisk broom on you hand in contrast to a long handled
floor broom.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Frank Krygowski said:

Richard Amirault said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on
your hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right).
The broom tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very
quickly follow the broom left. That's what a countersteered fast
turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You can
balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is on the
top. If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes very,
very hard to balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

I know by experience that learning to ride an antique high wheeler is
amazingly easy, once you're up there. Those bikes can be effortlessly
balanced at 2 or 3 mph.

OTOH, when I first tried to balance a recumbent, I looked ridiculously
clumsy. Faster tipping due to low COG, and (on that model) longer
wheelbase made balancing tricky.

I would think this is because the Penny Farthing has a much greater
angular momentum, whereas the 'bent probably had a lot less angular
momentum. So, the COG is not the whole story...

Quoted message said:

With standard geometry, the COG height really doesn't vary much. My
guess is that a low COG would allow faster initiation of turns for crit
or track sprint work, but that you'd soon run into pedal scrapes if you
went too low.

And picking up on that idea, I think bottom bracket height is more
imporatant for clearance than for COG. For example, mountain bikers and
cyclocrossers prefer to clear logs, not bend chainrings. Touring bikes
often feature lower bottom brackets (thus lower COGs) but I bet it's
more so you can reach the ground easier when seated and stopped at a
light, or get better crotch clearance when standing over the bike. And
tourists don't worry about scraping pedals, because they won't pedal
corners during fast cornering.

Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:44:08 -0400, <[email hidden]>, Frank

Krygowski said:

I know by experience that learning to ride an antique high wheeler is
amazingly easy, once you're up there. Those bikes can be effortlessly
balanced at 2 or 3 mph.

OTOH, when I first tried to balance a recumbent, I looked ridiculously
clumsy. Faster tipping due to low COG, and (on that model) longer
wheelbase made balancing tricky.

I've experienced the same thing with tall bikes and choppers.
Tall bikes are elegant, choppers make you look like you're drunk.
--
zk

Bob Garrison said:

"Ben Kaufman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

"Bob Garrison" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> Countersteering is pressing on the inside hand. To go left you press
> left. To go right you press right. It's called countersteering because
> you are pointing the front wheel in the direction which is counter to
> the one you wish to go.

Your coach is teaching you wrong, too. To turn left (efficiently), you

press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

down with the right hand. Go to google.com and type in "countersteer

bicycle".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You will find numerous articles describing countersteering in detail (and
mostly correctly).

To make a left turn by counter steering, you point the front wheel to

the

Quoted message said:

right. This causes the bike to "fall" into a left turn. To point the

front

Quoted message said:

wheel to the right your push with the left hand and/or pull with the

right

Quoted message said:

hand.

Ben

That's what I said.

I said "push with the left" and you said "press with the right". How are they
the same thing? Press= push ?

Ben

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:02:58 -0400, "Richard Amirault" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on your
hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right). The broom
tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very quickly follow the
broom left. That's what a countersteered fast turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You can
balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is on the top.
If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes very, very hard to
balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

Richard in Boston, MA, USA

Your analogy works for the case of someone trying to balance on a bike with
little or no forward motion. However, once under sufficient forward motion the
need for corrections to maintain balance are so subtle that the location of the
COG doesn't matter for this. Howerver, when making turns, a lower center of
gravity means a faster response and the bike does not have to lean as much into
the turn.

Ben

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:31:10 GMT, "Fred Hall" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

With a higher COG, when the bike starts to go over, you
need to be faster with your correction before it tips over, and you have to
be careful because of your quick reaction needed that you don't overcorrect
too forcefully and tip the bike the other way.

I'd have to have that proved to me. I've ridden 58cm diamond frames,
'mid-sized' SWB recumbents and low LWB recumbents. The shorter the
bike, the faster your reaction has to be and the less time you have to
react. While it may be anecdotal, the stories are wide-spread about
losing a wheel due to ice or sand and having no time to react on a
recumbent. On a diamond frame I could have a wheel go out and still
have time to recover. And I didn't feel as if it were an instant of
time either.

Won't give up recumbents, but I won't pretend that there aren't some
issues with them. Also why I have a diamond frame for really nasty
conditions, like ice and snow.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Richard Amirault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right). The

broom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very quickly follow

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broom left. That's what a countersteered fast turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You can
balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is on the

top.

Quoted message said:

If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes very, very hard

to

Quoted message said:

balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

With a conventional diamond-frame bike, it's pretty hard to really change
the COG much, so the whole issue is pretty trivial (as well as being the
inverse of what many think it is). Wheelbase, on the other hand, is not
nearly as constrained, and has a larger effect on stability, and on
braking. People always get that wrong, too.

"Ben Kaufman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:02:58 -0400, "Richard Amirault"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high, on

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand right). The

broom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you can very quickly follow

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broom left. That's what a countersteered fast turn is like.

(snip)

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You can
balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is on the

top.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it becomes very, very hard

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

balance. Would not the same apply to balancing a bike?

Richard in Boston, MA, USA

Your analogy works for the case of someone trying to balance on a bike

with

Quoted message said:

little or no forward motion. However, once under sufficient forward

motion the

Quoted message said:

need for corrections to maintain balance are so subtle that the location

of the

Quoted message said:

COG doesn't matter for this. Howerver, when making turns, a lower

center of

Quoted message said:

gravity means a faster response and the bike does not have to lean as

much into

Quoted message said:

the turn.

This is wrong. You can confirm this yourself by seeing if you can run
through a slalom course faster with a short broom than a tall one. You will
find the length of the broom doesn't effect lean angle or the rate you can
initiate a turn. Countersteer works exactly the same way.

Ben Kaufman said:

Your analogy works for the case of someone trying to balance on a bike with
little or no forward motion. However, once under sufficient forward motion the
need for corrections to maintain balance are so subtle that the location of the
COG doesn't matter for this.

In my experience, "sufficient forward motion" is different for different
bikes. Again, my first time on an antique ordinary (or high wheeler) I
was able to balance at less than 3 mph. I still can't balance at that
speed on a long wheelbase recumbent - at least, not last time I tried.

Howerver, when making turns, a lower center of

Quoted message said:

gravity means a faster response and the bike does not have to lean as much into
the turn.

Nope. The angle of lean into a turn is completely independent of COG
height. All bikes have to lean the same amount.

If you're in a level turn of radius R going at speed V, the angle of
tilt MUST be the one that fits this equation: Tangent of the angle =
V^2/(R * g) where g is the acceleration of gravity.

Nothing you can do will change that, including changing the height of
the COG.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

Ben Kaufman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this by balancing a broom, brushy side high,
on your hand. "Steer" your broom handle right (move your hand
right). The broom tips left. If you're coordinated enough, you
can very quickly follow the broom left. That's what a
countersteered fast turn is like.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As long as you brought it up .... I don't understand why folks keep
insisting that a lower center of gravity is better on a bike. You
can balance a broom (as the above example) easily when the brush is
on the top. If you reverse it, brush on the bottom, then it
becomes very, very hard to balance. Would not the same apply to
balancing a bike?

Quoted message said:

Your analogy works for the case of someone trying to balance on a
bike with little or no forward motion. However, once under
sufficient forward motion the need for corrections to maintain
balance are so subtle that the location of the COG doesn't matter
for this.

Stability is relative and dependent on speed. A low CG is still less
stable than a higher CG, whether it is conspicuous or not.

Quoted message said:

Howerver, when making turns, a lower center of gravity means a
faster response and the bike does not have to lean as much into the
turn.

Faster response means it tips over faster, just as was stated earlier.
The lean angle does not change with CG height. It is entirely related
to speed and curvature. If you believe otherwise, then you probably
don't corner fast.

http://tinyurl.com/a8zs

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:NMd6d.64096$wV.6975@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Amirault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote...
(snip)

Lots of snippage....

Quoted message said:

With a conventional diamond-frame bike, it's pretty hard to really change
the COG much, so the whole issue is pretty trivial (as well as being the
inverse of what many think it is). Wheelbase, on the other hand, is not
nearly as constrained, and has a larger effect on stability, and on
braking. People always get that wrong, too.

I am so happy to have asked the original cornering question! I have learned
a lot already, and if it weren't for tropical storm Jeanne, I might be
working on it right now ;< I think that the FAQ that Jobst pointed to was
the most helpful (although it's under "Descending II" and "Descending I"
gives some contrary advice.)

And who said NG's were a waste of time <G>

Thanks all,

Cat