Cooperatives att. Joshua

Mikael Seierup must be edykated coz e writed:

Quoted message said:

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions to bikeshops that basically
just order parts and sell them for _a lot_ more.

I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link and buying direct from the importers
or manufacturers? Would a cooperative be the way to go. How, what and why? Would importers do
business with us?

Also I have my own company already (not bikerelated). Would they do business with me? I do not
want to start a bikeshop though, so I was imagining something where a group of people or even the
national club run some sort of nonprofit cooperative that would allow them/us to buy cheap parts
at cost without too much hassle from taxpeople etc.

Anywhere on the net that has a "Starting a cooperative for dummies"-text? :-) I realize we are
half a world apart but still any opinions and ideas would be nice.

Cheers Mikael

Just don't whinge when there are no bike shops around because you have advocated cutting off a
section of their income.

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗

"Ian" skrev

Quoted message said:

Just don't whinge when there are no bike shops around because you have advocated cutting off a
section of their income.

Gee why am I not surprised at that comment. :-)

I guess its okay that they fleece us? I happened to see what my LBS actually paid for tires compared
to his price and I should really be sitting in a dark corner now going "The horror... the horror..."

Anyway we are talking 300 lost customers distributed all over the country here at most. I doubt that
would close many bikeshops and its a free market after all. Welcome to capitalism, comrade. ;-)

Joshua. If you read this could you reply via mail? Because I guess this thread will quickly combust.
(But not something my Hotmail will see as spam as I told it to delete that instantly. 40 messages on
enlarging this and that and other scams finally got to me.)

Toodles Mikael

GEE Mikael. lets turn this around, using your sentence.

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions

Quoted message said:

to "Mikael's company" that basically just order parts and sell

them for _a lot_ more. > I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link > and buying
direct from the importers or manufacturers? Would a cooperative be > the way to go...

And what if your bicycle REALLY needed something repaired? Could / would your so-called cooperative
be able to assist in that issue? Just as I'm sure you run your company to make a profit (C'mom you
don't really offer your companies goods at your cost do you) to be able to pay your bills, so does a
bike shop. EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero & GRR Ti Pilot)

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions to bikeshops that basically
just order parts and sell them for _a lot_

more.

Quoted message said:

I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link and buying direct from the importers
or manufacturers? Would a cooperative

be

Quoted message said:

the way to go. How, what and why? Would importers do business with us?

Also I have my own company already (not bikerelated). Would they do

business with me?

Quoted message said:

I do not want to start a bikeshop though, so I was imagining something where a group of people or
even the national club run some sort of

nonprofit cooperative

Quoted message said:

that would allow them/us to buy cheap parts at cost without too much

hassle from taxpeople etc.

Quoted message said:

Anywhere on the net that has a "Starting a cooperative for dummies"-text?

:-)

Quoted message said:

I realize we are half a world apart but still any opinions and ideas would

be nice.

Quoted message said:

Cheers Mikael

"EZ Biker :-)" skrev...

Quoted message said:

GEE Mikael. lets turn this around, using your sentence.

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions

Quoted message said:

to "Mikael's company" that basically just order parts and sell

them for _a lot_ more. > I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link > and
buying direct from the importers or manufacturers? Would a cooperative be > the way to go...

A: I dont get paid very well per subtitle if you are referrring to my actual company.
B: And I work for my fee. Theres more to subtitling and translation than picking up the phone,
ordering a part and then selling it with a 200% markup as a bikeshop does.

Quoted message said:

And what if your bicycle REALLY needed something repaired? Could / would your so-called
cooperative be able to assist in that issue? Just as I'm sure you run your company to make a
profit (C'mom you don't really offer your companies goods at your cost do you) to be able to pay
your bills, so does a bike shop.

Well you are once again assuming that every bikeshop on the face of the planet would instantly
vanish. Would people make noises if I had announced I wanted to start my own competing bikeshop with
favourable prices? Thats just as likely to put someone out of business.

And how about people that build their own bikes? Isn't that terrible? Think of all the poor
framebuilders whose children will go hungry. Soon you won't be able to buy a finished recumbent. All
companies will have folded because N.N. built himself a bike.

Or people who cook their own food? Ye gods! Soon the streets will be full of destitute waiters and
chefs. Stop!

I guess you catch my drift. ;-) Mikael

"EZ Biker :-)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:o0gcb.423647$cF.131200@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

And what if your bicycle REALLY needed something repaired? Could / would your so-called
cooperative be able to assist in that issue?

Well, a little competition in the market of the special parts we need for the recumbents, isn't
likely to set any bikemechanics on the street. I can't really see how it is related.

Quoted message said:

Just as I'm sure you run your company to make a profit (C'mom you don't

really offer your

Quoted message said:

companies goods at your cost do you) to be able to pay your bills, so does

a

Quoted message said:

bike shop.

I don't think Mikael would think these thoughts, if the LBS's profits were reasonable. We don't have
hostelshoppe (I wonder how that business started..) here, so we have to find other ways of doing
things. Most LBS's around here doesent give a [censored] about recumbents, others just see them as a way
to inflate the profit a bit (gee, that's a very rare tire size, that could be expensive..). Example
: 2 90 degrees banjo bolts for magura hs33 - 2 months of waiting, and a bill of 35,3$. (No NOT
including mounting).

I for one wellcome Mikaels initiative.

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"EZ Biker :-)" skrev...

Quoted message said:

GEE Mikael. lets turn this around, using your sentence.

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions

Quoted message said:

to "Mikael's company" that basically just order parts and sell

them for _a lot_ more. > I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link > and
buying direct from the importers or manufacturers? Would a cooperative be > the way to go...

A: I dont get paid very well per subtitle if you are referrring to my actual company. B: And I
work for my fee. Theres more to subtitling and translation than picking up the phone, ordering
a part and then selling it with a 200% markup as a bikeshop does.

I can see both sides of this, as bike shops also have other expenses such as for the building, money
invested in items gathering dust,etc that all goes into the formula for the price I pay for parts. I
would not mind so much paying for the shop to stay in existence if:

a)they actually could fix my bike. They've shown in the past that they can't.( a "free" 30 day
tune-up, after which I had to go over everything myself because it no longer shifted properly and
the brakes rubbed, and a bonus big nick in the paint that wasn't there before)

b)when I go to buy something, they didn't always have to order it. I can order from a catalog with
no special training /^: So much for immediate gratification!

c)they knew more about the parts than I.

The above makes them little more than a middleman with an out-stretched hand. Recumbent specific
shops I can support, as even though it is at a distance, they meet 2 of the 3 criteria. The problem
in that is: for me that is still mailorder.

The LBS I do biz with has prices inline (about 50% of the time) with mailorder houses if you figure
in shipping, on the stuff they have IN STOCK. With exceptions, every thing ordered is not a bargain.
The selection is very limited on necessities like tubes and tires. The pool of employees are fairly
knowledgeable, so long as it is wedgie related. That knowledge then depends on my own ability to
translate it to recumbent usage.

Not knowing very well how a CoOp works, I would be interested in learning more.

happy trails, rorschandt

--
May all beings be happy. May they be joyous and live in safety. All living beings, whether weak or
strong, in high or middle or low realms of existence, small or great, visible or invisible, near or
far, born or to be born, Let no one deceive another, nor despise any being in any state; Let none by
anger or hatred wish harm to another. Even as a mother at the risk of her life watches over and
protects her only child, so with a boundless mind should one cherish all living things,

All these comments on the follow ups are hilarious. And I guess nobody here shops at Wal Mart, and
hurts their local businesses, or shops on the Internet to bypass their local shop and sales taxes.
If you can save money, then save it. I don't think any of the bike shops around are for charitable
purposes? And I highly doubt one person wanting to bypass using a local bike shop is going to throw
the world economy off any time soon?

Besides, you get what you pay for. Some people want the Yugo (which is the best built car in all of
Yugoslavia!), and some want the Toyota.

I myself use my local bike shop for repairs, and some parts. Just last night I was quoted 375.00 for
a crank set on my tandem, that costs 175.00 on the Internet. Now, I want my kids to go to college
just as bad as the bike shop owner. So guess where I am gonna buy the cranks? And if I could get
them from a cooperative any less expensive, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions to bikeshops that basically
just order parts and sell them for _a lot_

more.

Quoted message said:

I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link and buying direct from the importers
or manufacturers? Would a cooperative

be

Quoted message said:

the way to go. How, what and why? Would importers do business with us?

Also I have my own company already (not bikerelated). Would they do

business with me?

Quoted message said:

I do not want to start a bikeshop though, so I was imagining something where a group of people or
even the national club run some sort of

nonprofit cooperative

Quoted message said:

that would allow them/us to buy cheap parts at cost without too much

hassle from taxpeople etc.

Quoted message said:

Anywhere on the net that has a "Starting a cooperative for dummies"-text?

:-)

Quoted message said:

I realize we are half a world apart but still any opinions and ideas would

be nice.

Quoted message said:

Cheers Mikael

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"EZ Biker :-)" skrev...

Quoted message said:

GEE Mikael. lets turn this around, using your sentence.

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions

Quoted message said:

to "Mikael's company" that basically just order parts and

sell

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them for _a lot_ more. > I wondered if you had any experiences with

skipping

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that link > and buying direct from the importers or manufacturers? Would

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cooperative be > the way to go...

A: I dont get paid very well per subtitle if you are referrring to my

actual company.

Quoted message said:

B: And I work for my fee. Theres more to subtitling and translation than

picking up the phone,

Quoted message said:

ordering a part and then selling it with a 200% markup as a bikeshop

does.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And what if your bicycle REALLY needed something repaired? Could / would your so-called
cooperative be able to assist in that issue? Just as I'm

sure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you run your company to make a profit (C'mom you don't really offer your companies goods at your
cost do you) to be able to pay your bills, so

does a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike shop.

Well you are once again assuming that every bikeshop on the face of the

planet

Quoted message said:

would instantly vanish. Would people make noises if I had announced I

wanted

Quoted message said:

to start my own competing bikeshop with favourable prices? Thats just as

likely

Quoted message said:

to put someone out of business.

And how about people that build their own bikes? Isn't that terrible? Think of all the poor
framebuilders whose children will go hungry. Soon you won't be able to buy a finished recumbent.
All companies will

have folded

Quoted message said:

because N.N. built himself a bike.

Or people who cook their own food? Ye gods! Soon the streets will be full of destitute waiters
and chefs.

Stop!

Quoted message said:

I guess you catch my drift. ;-) Mikael

I get your drift, but I wonder if the Luddites ever will. There is absolutely nothing wrong about
the idea. If you can provide a better product, a better service, or lower prices than others the
world will be a better place for it. With that said it has been my experience (from trying a time or
two) that providing better service and lower prices than the rest of the world is no piece of cake
kind of easy. The devil is always in the details.

skip

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I (and a few others maybe) are a bit tired of paying huge commisions to bikeshops that basically
just order parts and sell them for _a lot_ more.

I wondered if you had any experiences with skipping that link and buying direct from the importers
or manufacturers? Would a cooperative be the way to go. How, what and why? Would importers do
business with us?

Check with Jens Soendergaard < [email hidden]> in Randers. He works for HF Cykler
A/S. He might be able to help. I stayed the night with him when I passed through Randers.

Small world "ain't it"?

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

"Cletus Lee" skrev

Quoted message said:

Check with Jens Soendergaard < [email hidden]> in Randers. He works for HF Cykler
A/S. He might be able to help. I stayed the night with him when I passed through Randers.

Ehm, sorry for being dense here but in what way could he help? Does he know about cooperatives or
work for an importer?

Regards Mikael

"Mikael Seierup" skrev...

Quoted message said:

"Cletus Lee" skrev

Quoted message said:

Check with Jens Soendergaard < [email hidden]> in Randers. He works for HF Cykler
A/S. He might be able to help. I stayed the night with him when I passed through Randers.

Ehm, sorry for being dense here but in what way could he help? Does he know about cooperatives or
work for an importer?

Ah, slapped my searchengine around and it coughed up an answer so nevermind. Ta for the heads-up
though. Might come in handy.

Regards Mikael

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Mikael Seierup" skrev...

Quoted message said:

"Cletus Lee" skrev

Quoted message said:

Check with Jens Soendergaard < [email hidden]> in Randers. He works for HF Cykler
A/S. He might be able to help. I stayed the night with him when I passed through Randers.

Ehm, sorry for being dense here but in what way could he help? Does he know about cooperatives
or work for an importer?

Ah, slapped my searchengine around and it coughed up an answer so nevermind. Ta for the heads-up
though. Might come in handy.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that HF Cykler is an importer of bicycle parts (THE danish importer
of bicycleparts?).

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Mikael Seierup said:

"Ian" skrev

Quoted message said:

Just don't whinge when there are no bike shops around because you have advocated cutting off a
section of their income.

Gee why am I not surprised at that comment. :-)

I guess its okay that they fleece us? I happened to see what my LBS actually paid for tires
compared to his price and I should really be sitting in a dark corner now going "The horror... the
horror..."...

A 30-40% markup on major items such as bicycles and a 100% markup on parts and accessories would be
typical. Most LBS owners will make nothing more that a decent middle class living with these
markups, however.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Mikael Seierup said:

... Well you are once again assuming that every bikeshop on the face of the planet would instantly
vanish. Would people make noises if I had announced I wanted to start my own competing bikeshop
with favourable prices? Thats just as likely to put someone out of business....

Most likely a LBS owner named Mikael Seierup who discovered all the expenses of running a shop that
need to be paid for with the markups on parts and accessories.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

I haven't been to a bike shop in years and years--I do all my own work and frankly don't trust bike
shop mechanics to know their ass from a bottom bracket.

So in my case, I'm already avoiding them. I doubt they'll go out of business--most people don't want
to get their hands dirty (can't say I blame them).

200% markup? Where? Who?

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗

"Ian" skrev...

Quoted message said:

200% markup? Where? Who?

Local bike shop who got me some Stelvios. I just got a fleeting glimpse of the invoice so I'm not
100% sure but I think the rear tire cost him 76 DKK and his price was 225 DKK. Wrong tire however.
(1 USD = 6.47 DKK) However he's very nice and have been very helpful when I refitted the TE and
lately when it got a new coat of paint. Spent at least 1000 USD over the last year there for parts
and repairs/refits and I will continue to do so when possible. But I guess my longterm goal would be
to be independent of bikeshops for repairs also. Its annoying having to haul a frame down to the
bikeshop just to have headsetcups installed.

And I am a bit tired of having to run all over town to get some parts and very tired of some of the
bikeshops. The price on an S-Licks 406 have varied from 119 DKK to 200 DKK in the same shop for
instance. I paid 99 DKK for my Stelvio front. Other places sell it at 150 DKK. I'm sure some would
try to ask for more if they could get away with it.

Also there are those shops that promise to order something and promise to call you when they know
more or get the parts and then you never hear a word even after repeated queries. I know that others
have the same problems so some sort of co-op would also save us a lot of bother.

Regards Mikael

"Ian" skrev...

Quoted message said:

200% markup? Where? Who?

There was also a local recumbent brand that went from selling directly and got some bikeshop
dealers. The prices they wanted was also a real eye-opener. It went from around 8000 DKK to 15000
DKK or more. They didn't even have it in stock. Why pay 7000 DKK at worst for someone to pick up a
phone? He quickly went back to selling them himself btw.

Regards Mikael

Mikael Seierup must be edykated coz e writed:

Quoted message said:

"Ian" skrev...

Quoted message said:

200% markup? Where? Who?

Local bike shop who got me some Stelvios. I just got a fleeting glimpse of the invoice so I'm not
100% sure but I think the rear tire cost him 76 DKK and his price was 225 DKK. Wrong tire however.
(1 USD = 6.47 DKK) However he's very nice and have been very helpful when I refitted the TE and
lately when it got a new coat of paint. Spent at least 1000 USD over the last year there for parts
and repairs/refits and I will continue to do so when possible. But I guess my longterm goal would
be to be independent of bikeshops for repairs also. Its annoying having to haul a frame down to
the bikeshop just to have headsetcups installed.

And I am a bit tired of having to run all over town to get some parts and very tired of some of
the bikeshops. The price on an S-Licks 406 have varied from 119 DKK to 200 DKK in the same shop
for instance. I paid 99 DKK for my Stelvio front. Other places sell it at 150 DKK. I'm sure some
would try to ask for more if they could get away with it.

Also there are those shops that promise to order something and promise to call you when they know
more or get the parts and then you never hear a word even after repeated queries. I know that
others have the same problems so some sort of co-op would also save us a lot of bother.

Regards Mikael

About 150DKK is standard retail for Stelvio's, I charge the equivalent of 125DKK. So the 225DKK was
a rip off and no mistake.

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗