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contradictory information about nutrition

Started by Bennett Haselto · · Last activity · 7 posts · 416 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
12 April 2004
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17 April 2004
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Bennett Haselto
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  1. I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the ground up. I don't
    know if this will help with weight loss/maintenance and general
    health; one school of thought is that if we knew more, we'd be
    healthier, but of course another school of thought is that we know
    what things are bad for us but we eat them anyway, and what we need is
    more willpower, not more knowledge 🙂

    Anyway, it seems like if you go searching for information
    beyond the basics of what types of fats there are and what a
    calorie measures, there is (to make a point which must be
    crashingly obvious to anyone who has studied up on
    nutrition) a lot of contradictory information and advice.
    Sometimes this comes from different advice sources giving
    priority to different goals (one page may explain
    convincinly why the Atkins diet tricks your body into
    burning up its fat stores; another page might acknowledge
    that this is true, but that saturated fats in meat can also
    cause an increase in cholesterol levels, which won't be
    reflected in weight gain but can have other harmful
    effects). And sometimes two sources of information just say
    the exact opposite about what happens in a given situation.

    This page: countcarbs.comLCG Myth Realit
    y_Ketosis.htm says 'If your protein intake is adequate, the
    body will not cannibalize its own protein - muscle - but
    will utilize the protein eaten for what is called, in
    metabolic terms, "gluconeogenesis".'
    i.e. when your carbs are severely limited, your body uses
    dietary protein for glucose *first*, and then *only* if
    dietary protein is insufficient, does your body begin
    burning its own muscles for glucose.

    On the other hand, this page:
    dietitian.comlocarb.html says "The problem is
    when you've depleted your stores of glycogen (stored glucose
    in muscle and lean tissue) your body turns to burning
    muscles or organs (lean muscle tissue) and dietary protein
    or fat to provide blood glucose to supply energy needs. When
    this happens, your basal metabolic rate drops because you
    have less lean muscle tissue burning calories and your body
    thinks its starving and cuts back on energy requirements."
    In other words, if you don't eat enough carbs to make
    glucose, your body starts making glucose from dietary
    protein and the body's own muscles *at the same time*.

    Unless I read it wrong, it sounds like these can't both be
    correct at the same time -- and there are lots of other
    examples. Is the contradictory information due to lack of
    scientific knowledge about what actually happens, or is it
    just because columnists are not reliable?

    And sometimes, even if it's clear what an article says, the
    underlying logic just begs more questions. For example, the
    countcarbs.comLCG Myth Reality Ketosis.h
    tm article says that your body gets energy either from from
    glucose or from fat stores, and the idea behind limiting
    carbs is to limit the amount of glucose that gets made, so
    that your body starts burning fat for energy. But it goes on
    to say that since you need glucose for brain function, you
    should make sure you eat enough protein to get that glucose.
    This begs the question: if you need X amount of glucose per
    day (but no more -- so that your body will turn to fat
    stores for energy), then what difference does it make
    whether you get that from carbohydrates or from protein?

    By analogy, if I didn't know anything about computer viruses
    and Internet security threats, and you tried to learn how to
    protect yourself by reading the information that columnists
    have put out there, it would be a huge mess sorting out all
    the conflicting advice. Now that I have about an expert-
    level understanding of those topics, when I read some
    columnists' advice about the subject, I can usually tell how
    they might have reached those conclusions, and how with a
    sentence change or two the article would be pretty accurate
    -- but I can't imagine actually trying to learn from reading
    all that contradictory advice. It took learning about how
    computers and email worked, from the ground up, before I
    could tell which advice out there was valid. Is it the same
    for nutrition experts in this group, reading all the columns
    out there about diet and nutrition? Would it be better just
    to learn about nutrition from the ground up, to get to the
    point where you could be proofreading other people's
    columns, than to try and learn from the columns themselves?

    Oh, and if anyone happens to know the answer to the above
    question (when your body runs out of glucose from
    carbohydrates, does it make more glucose from dietary
    protein first and only burn up your muscles when the dietary
    protein runs out, or does it burn up both at the same time),
    that would also be useful...

    -Bennett

  2. Bennett Haselton wrote

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    -Bennet

    Why don't you ask the guys who actually know these answers
    from experience not just theory. I wresled with these same
    dilemmas, and came to the conclusion that bodybuilders can
    be living proof of concept of ideas if you get into the
    right crowd (read natural not drug assisted). Search for
    articles by Lyle Mcdonald in
    groups.google.com.auadvanced group search and
    have a look at bodyrecomposition.combodyrecomposition.com and
    thinkmuscle.comindex.htm. Some
    of the info is a little out of date but i doubt if thousands
    of weight trainers/bodybuilders would be hanging on this
    guys every word if he didn't have something right.
    --
    °¿ °
    2.6.4 GNU/Linux AMD Athlon(tm) Processor
    2:7:20 up 9 days, 10:17, 1 user, load average: 0.00,
    0.00, 0.00

  3. "Bennett Haselton" <[email hidden]> píse v diskusním príspevku
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the ground
    up. I don't

    So do I, just perhaps for several months longer 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, it seems like if you go searching for information
    beyond the basics of what types of fats there are and what
    a calorie measures, there is (to make a point which must
    be crashingly obvious to anyone who has studied up on
    nutrition) a lot of contradictory information and advice.

    Welcome to the world in nutrition "science" 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    priority to different goals (one page may explain
    convincinly why the Atkins diet tricks your body into
    burning up its fat stores; another page might acknowledge
    that this is true, but that saturated fats in

    BTW, I would finally like if somebody would show me a
    biochemic pathway that causes this satfat problem....

    That said, there probably are problems associated with
    saturated fats, or better to say, with SOME saturated fats,
    but if they change cholesterol levels, then it could be only
    indirectly.

    Quoted message said:

    the same time -- and there are lots of other examples. Is
    the contradictory information due to lack of scientific
    knowledge about what actually happens, or is it just
    because columnists are not reliable?

    I think both.

    Quoted message said:

    for energy. But it goes on to say that since you need
    glucose for brain function, you should make sure you eat
    enough protein to get

    Actually, if you eat low-carb for some time, brain
    requirements change, it starts to burn ketones instead
    of glucose.

    Normally you need about 100g of glucose per day for brain,
    but after adaptation your requirements will drop to about
    30g / day and rest of energy will be obtained from ketone
    bodies. BTW, most people (including
    me) report improved brain performance when running on
    ketones.

    Quoted message said:

    that glucose. This begs the question: if you need X amount
    of glucose per day (but no more -- so that your body will
    turn to fat stores for energy), then what difference does
    it make whether you get that from carbohydrates or from
    protein?

    Carbs inhibit glucogenesis. Of course, switching between glucose-

    Quoted message said:

    fat and fat->glucose happens all the time, anyway while glucose-
    fat is started quite fast (it must be, unless BG would go


    too high), fat->glucose gets much longer to kick-in and the
    problem is that body reacts to low BG with hunger.

    Quoted message said:

    reading all the columns out there about diet and
    nutrition? Would it be better just to learn about
    nutrition from the ground up, to get to the point where
    you could be proofreading other people's columns, than to
    try and learn from the columns themselves?

    I think you should start with biochemistry first:

    indstate.eduhome.html

    Mirek

  4. "Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Bennett Haselton" <[email hidden]> píse v
    diskusním príspevku
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the
    ground up. I don't



    SNIP

    Quoted message said:


    I think you should start with biochemistry first:

    indstate.eduhome.html

    Mirek


    ****

    And so should we all! Mirek, a great site, perhaps more than
    a little dangerous for mooshian dogmatists. Hope we do not
    hear of sudden heart attacks. Perhaps it should carry a
    warning label! Mike V

  5. On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:58:06 +0200, "Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]>
    posted:

    Quoted message said:


    "Bennett Haselton" <[email hidden]> píse v
    diskusním príspevku
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the ground
    up. I don't

    So do I, just perhaps for several months longer 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, it seems like if you go searching for information
    beyond the basics of what types of fats there are and
    what a calorie measures, there is (to make a point which
    must be crashingly obvious to anyone who has studied up
    on nutrition) a lot of contradictory information and
    advice.

    Welcome to the world in nutrition "science" 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    priority to different goals (one page may explain
    convincinly why the Atkins diet tricks your body into
    burning up its fat stores; another page might acknowledge
    that this is true, but that saturated fats in

    BTW, I would finally like if somebody would show me a
    biochemic pathway that causes this satfat problem....

    That said, there probably are problems associated with
    saturated fats, or better to say, with SOME saturated fats,
    but if they change cholesterol levels, then it could be
    only indirectly.

    Surely sat fats are not a particular problem when you are
    not fat and do enough exercise. Afterall, isn't your
    body's fat stores sat fat? Seems to me that lots of
    foodstuffs are a problem when too many calories are eaten
    and the body accumulates too much fat storage and less and
    less exercise is taken.

    A varied wholefood diet with no excess of calories and with
    regular moderate exercise brings no problems with metabolism
    abnormalities.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the same time -- and there are lots of other examples. Is
    the contradictory information due to lack of scientific
    knowledge about what actually happens, or is it just
    because columnists are not reliable?

    I think both.

    I don't believe there is a particular lack of scientific
    knowledge. Columnists are renowned.....

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for energy. But it goes on to say that since you need
    glucose for brain function, you should make sure you eat
    enough protein to get

    Actually, if you eat low-carb for some time, brain
    requirements change, it starts to burn ketones instead
    of glucose.

    Can you point me to some description of this, Mirek?
    The brain always objects to burning mostly ketone
    bodies I understand. Gluconeogenis increases until it
    has enough glucose.

    Quoted message said:

    Normally you need about 100g of glucose per day for brain,
    but after adaptation your requirements will drop to about
    30g / day and rest of energy will be obtained from ketone
    bodies. BTW, most people (including
    me) report improved brain performance when running on
    ketones.

    That's assuming that it really IS running on ketones. I've
    only heard this from the low carbers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that glucose. This begs the question: if you need X
    amount of glucose per day (but no more -- so that your
    body will turn to fat stores for energy), then what
    difference does it make whether you get that from
    carbohydrates or from protein?

    Carbs inhibit glucogenesis. Of course, switching between
    glucose->fat and fat->glucose happens all the time, anyway
    while glucose->fat is started quite fast (it must be,
    unless BG would go too high), fat->glucose gets much longer
    to kick-in and the problem is that body reacts to low BG
    with hunger.

    Well 10% of fat and much protein can be converted to
    glucose.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    reading all the columns out there about diet and
    nutrition? Would it be better just to learn about
    nutrition from the ground up, to get to the point where
    you could be proofreading other people's columns, than to
    try and learn from the columns themselves?

    I think you should start with biochemistry first:

    indstate.eduhome.html

    Good site, Thanks.

  6. On 11 Apr 2004 22:48:17 -0700, [email hidden] (Bennett
    Haselton) posted:

    Quoted message said:

    I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the ground
    up. I don't know if this will help with weight
    loss/maintenance and general health; one school of thought
    is that if we knew more, we'd be healthier, but of course
    another school of thought is that we know what things are
    bad for us but we eat them anyway, and what we need is more
    willpower, not more knowledge 🙂

    Anyway, it seems like if you go searching for information
    beyond the basics of what types of fats there are and what
    a calorie measures, there is (to make a point which must be
    crashingly obvious to anyone who has studied up on
    nutrition) a lot of contradictory information and advice.
    Sometimes this comes from different advice sources giving
    priority to different goals (one page may explain
    convincinly why the Atkins diet tricks your body into
    burning up its fat stores; another page might acknowledge
    that this is true, but that saturated fats in meat can also
    cause an increase in cholesterol levels, which won't be
    reflected in weight gain but can have other harmful
    effects). And sometimes two sources of information just say
    the exact opposite about what happens in a given situation.

    This page: countcarbs.comLCG Myth Reali
    ty_Ketosis.htm says 'If your protein intake is adequate,
    the body will not cannibalize its own protein - muscle -
    but will utilize the protein eaten for what is called, in
    metabolic terms, "gluconeogenesis".'
    i.e. when your carbs are severely limited, your body uses
    dietary protein for glucose *first*, and then *only*
    if dietary protein is insufficient, does your body
    begin burning its own muscles for glucose.

    On the other hand, this page:
    dietitian.comlocarb.html says "The problem is
    when you've depleted your stores of glycogen (stored
    glucose in muscle and lean tissue) your body turns to
    burning muscles or organs (lean muscle tissue) and dietary
    protein or fat to provide blood glucose to supply energy
    needs. When this happens, your basal metabolic rate drops
    because you have less lean muscle tissue burning calories
    and your body thinks its starving and cuts back on energy
    requirements." In other words, if you don't eat enough
    carbs to make glucose, your body starts making glucose
    from dietary protein and the body's own muscles *at the
    same time*.

    Unless I read it wrong, it sounds like these can't both be
    correct at the same time -- and there are lots of other
    examples. Is the contradictory information due to lack of
    scientific knowledge about what actually happens, or is it
    just because columnists are not reliable?

    Columnists are often quite wrong. The apparent
    contradictions are probably because energy from fat was not
    taken into account, and also whether excess energy was being
    consumed, or just the right amount or less than is needed.

    Quoted message said:

    And sometimes, even if it's clear what an article says, the
    underlying logic just begs more questions. For example, the
    countcarbs.comLCG Myth Reality Ketosis.
    htm article says that your body gets energy either from
    from glucose or from fat stores, and the idea behind
    limiting carbs is to limit the amount of glucose that gets
    made, so that your body starts burning fat for energy. But
    it goes on to say that since you need glucose for brain
    function, you should make sure you eat enough protein to
    get that glucose. This begs the question: if you need X
    amount of glucose per day (but no more -- so that your body
    will turn to fat stores for energy), then what difference
    does it make whether you get that from carbohydrates or
    from protein?

    It doesn't, so long as you are not eating way too much
    energy. Then all sorts of problems rear their ugly heads.

    Quoted message said:

    By analogy, if I didn't know anything about computer
    viruses and Internet security threats, and you tried to
    learn how to protect yourself by reading the information
    that columnists have put out there, it would be a huge mess
    sorting out all the conflicting advice. Now that I have
    about an expert-level understanding of those topics, when I
    read some columnists' advice about the subject, I can
    usually tell how they might have reached those conclusions,
    and how with a sentence change or two the article would be
    pretty accurate -- but I can't imagine actually trying to
    learn from reading all that contradictory advice. It took
    learning about how computers and email worked, from the
    ground up, before I could tell which advice out there was
    valid. Is it the same for nutrition experts in this group,
    reading all the columns out there about diet and nutrition?
    Would it be better just to learn about nutrition from the
    ground up, to get to the point where you could be
    proofreading other people's columns, than to try and learn
    from the columns themselves?

    Oh, and if anyone happens to know the answer to the above
    question (when your body runs out of glucose from
    carbohydrates, does it make more glucose from dietary
    protein first and only burn up your muscles when the
    dietary protein runs out, or does it burn up both at the
    same time), that would also be useful...

    Quoted message said:


    -Bennett

  7. "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 11 Apr 2004 22:48:17 -0700, [email hidden]
    (Bennett Haselton) posted:

    Quoted message said:

    I'm trying to learn a lot about nutrition from the ground
    up. I don't know if this will help with weight
    loss/maintenance and general health; one school of
    thought is that if we knew more, we'd be healthier, but
    of course another school of thought is that we know what
    things are bad for us but we eat them anyway, and what we
    need is more willpower, not more knowledge 🙂

    Anyway, it seems like if you go searching for information
    beyond the basics of what types of fats there are and
    what a calorie measures, there is (to make a point which
    must be crashingly obvious to anyone who has studied up
    on nutrition) a lot of contradictory information and
    advice. Sometimes this comes from different advice
    sources giving priority to different goals (one page may
    explain convincinly why the Atkins diet tricks your body
    into burning up its fat stores; another page might
    acknowledge that this is true, but that saturated fats in
    meat can also cause an increase in cholesterol levels,
    which won't be reflected in weight gain but can have
    other harmful effects). And sometimes two sources of
    information just say the exact opposite about what
    happens in a given situation.

    This page: countcarbs.comLCG Myth Rea
    lity_Ketosis.htm says 'If your protein intake is
    adequate, the body will not cannibalize its own protein -
    muscle - but will utilize the protein eaten for what is
    called, in metabolic terms, "gluconeogenesis".'
    i.e. when your carbs are severely limited, your body uses
    dietary protein for glucose *first*, and then *only*
    if dietary protein is insufficient, does your body
    begin burning its own muscles for glucose.

    On the other hand, this page:
    dietitian.comlocarb.html says "The problem is
    when you've depleted your stores of glycogen (stored
    glucose in muscle and lean tissue) your body turns to
    burning muscles or organs (lean muscle tissue) and
    dietary protein or fat to provide blood glucose to supply
    energy needs. When this happens, your basal metabolic
    rate drops because you have less lean muscle tissue
    burning calories and your body thinks its starving and
    cuts back on energy requirements." In other words, if you
    don't eat enough carbs to make glucose, your body starts
    making glucose from dietary protein and the body's own
    muscles *at the same time*.

    Unless I read it wrong, it sounds like these can't both
    be correct at the same time -- and there are lots of
    other examples. Is the contradictory information due to
    lack of scientific knowledge about what actually happens,
    or is it just because columnists are not reliable?

    Columnists are often quite wrong. The apparent
    contradictions are probably because energy from fat was
    not taken into account, and also whether excess energy
    was being consumed, or just the right amount or less than
    is needed.

    Quoted message said:

    And sometimes, even if it's clear what an article says,
    the underlying logic just begs more questions. For
    example, the countcarbs.comLCG Myth R
    eality_Ketosis.htm article says that your body gets
    energy either from from glucose or from fat stores, and
    the idea behind limiting carbs is to limit the amount of
    glucose that gets made, so that your body starts burning
    fat for energy. But it goes on to say that since you need
    glucose for brain function, you should make sure you eat
    enough protein to get that glucose. This begs the
    question: if you need X amount of glucose per day (but no
    more -- so that your body will turn to fat stores for
    energy), then what difference does it make whether you
    get that from carbohydrates or from protein?

    It doesn't, so long as you are not eating way too much
    energy. Then all sorts of problems rear their ugly heads.

    Quoted message said:

    By analogy, if I didn't know anything about computer
    viruses and Internet security threats, and you tried to
    learn how to protect yourself by reading the information
    that columnists have put out there, it would be a huge
    mess sorting out all the conflicting advice. Now that I
    have about an expert-level understanding of those topics,
    when I read some columnists' advice about the subject, I
    can usually tell how they might have reached those
    conclusions, and how with a sentence change or two the
    article would be pretty accurate -- but I can't imagine
    actually trying to learn from reading all that
    contradictory advice. It took learning about how
    computers and email worked, from the ground up, before I
    could tell which advice out there was valid. Is it the
    same for nutrition experts in this group, reading all the
    columns out there about diet and nutrition? Would it be
    better just to learn about nutrition from the ground up,
    to get to the point where you could be proofreading other
    people's columns, than to try and learn from the columns
    themselves?

    Oh, and if anyone happens to know the answer to the above
    question (when your body runs out of glucose from
    carbohydrates, does it make more glucose from dietary
    protein first and only burn up your muscles when the
    dietary protein runs out, or does it burn up both at the
    same time), that would also be useful...

    Quoted message said:


    -Bennett

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