conspiracy theorists unite!

Scott said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

Maybe they spiked his OJ.

Fred

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

I try to keep things in perspective. I will let you choose which scenario is
more likely.

Option A is any version, single or multiple, of your situations above.

Option B is that Floyd knowingly took illegal, performance enhancing
substances.

If you were betting your house which would you choose?

Frank Drackman said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

I try to keep things in perspective. I will let you choose which scenario is
more likely.

Option A is any version, single or multiple, of your situations above.

Option B is that Floyd knowingly took illegal, performance enhancing
substances.

If you were betting your house which would you choose?

Frankly (pardon the pun),

I don't think either scenario represents what happened. I believe it
was a faulty test. As the manufacturer of the equipment used to do the
testing for exogenous testosterone himself has stated, there's a huge
likelyhood of false-positives. Okay, not huge, but large enough as to
cast serious doubts on the validity of the test results.

As for the T/E ratio itself being out of whack, there are any number of
plausible explanations for that. Time will tell, I guess.

Scott said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

Do they even bother to drug-test the masters fatties? If so, it must
be the most thrilling thing in the world (for that "old hand"😉 to get
drug tested like his favorite pros.

Quoted message said:

Scott said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

Do they even bother to drug-test the masters fatties? If so, it must
be the most thrilling thing in the world (for that "old hand"😉 to get
drug tested like his favorite pros.

Quoted message said:

From what I understand, the test the winners. I've only heard this 2nd

or 3rd hand, so can't say for sure. I can say definitively that I
heard a multi-year, multi-event winner proclaim his serious concern
about failing a test due to someone sabotaging his water bottles.

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think either scenario represents what happened. I believe it
was a faulty test. As the manufacturer of the equipment used to do the
testing for exogenous testosterone himself has stated, there's a huge
likelyhood of false-positives. Okay, not huge, but large enough as to
cast serious doubts on the validity of the test results.

As for the T/E ratio itself being out of whack, there are any number of
plausible explanations for that. Time will tell, I guess.

It is important to note - if the MANUFACTURER tells you that one out of 20
will be a false positive, that's with people who are competent to use the
equipment.

Let me relate something. I worked for Beckman Instruments and we designed
liquid chromotography equipment. I worked on both the fixed and variable
wavelength detectors and the high pressure pumps. I also wrote a good deal
of the firmware for the system controller. We also designed and
manufacturered the LC columns and we had a very good LC lab that designed
the precedures for using the equipment.

Every morning one of the PhD chromotography experts and myself would make a
batch of coffee in his office. As a top notch chemist he always made a great
deal out of this and always we had nearly perfect coffee.

Very often during this time he would receive phone calls from all over the
world requesting information on how to use our equipment. The very worst
users were Nobel prize winners who couldn't even bother themselves to read
the instruction manual.

I knew what our sales were and I knew how many chemists were calling in to
ask questions, and I heard what they were doing and how they were doing it.
And my chemist friend who very often had designed the tests these people
were trying to do was at his wits end because most of these guys wouldn't
follow the simplest of directions. And the very WORST at this were the
highest level French chemists who seemed to believe that their reputation
would make the results come out properly despite using the equipment
entirely incorrectly.

If someone tells me that French lab was competent I would take that with a
heavy dose of salt.

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think either scenario represents what happened. I believe it
was a faulty test. As the manufacturer of the equipment used to do the
testing for exogenous testosterone himself has stated, there's a huge
likelyhood of false-positives. Okay, not huge, but large enough as to
cast serious doubts on the validity of the test results.

As for the T/E ratio itself being out of whack, there are any number of
plausible explanations for that. Time will tell, I guess.

It is important to note - if the MANUFACTURER tells you that one out of 20
will be a false positive, that's with people who are competent to use the
equipment.

Yes, but he also said hat one out of 20 is only with INCOMPETENT people.
As the manufacturer also said that the French Lab was competent, the chance
of false positive are now less than 0 %

Quoted message said:

Let me relate something. I worked for Beckman Instruments and we designed
liquid chromotography equipment. I worked on both the fixed and variable
wavelength detectors and the high pressure pumps. I also wrote a good deal
of the firmware for the system controller. We also designed and
manufacturered the LC columns and we had a very good LC lab that designed
the precedures for using the equipment.

Every morning one of the PhD chromotography experts and myself would make
a batch of coffee in his office. As a top notch chemist he always made a
great deal out of this and always we had nearly perfect coffee.

Very often during this time he would receive phone calls from all over the
world requesting information on how to use our equipment. The very worst
users were Nobel prize winners who couldn't even bother themselves to read
the instruction manual.

I knew what our sales were and I knew how many chemists were calling in to
ask questions, and I heard what they were doing and how they were doing
it. And my chemist friend who very often had designed the tests these
people were trying to do was at his wits end because most of these guys
wouldn't follow the simplest of directions. And the very WORST at this
were the highest level French chemists who seemed to believe that their
reputation would make the results come out properly despite using the
equipment entirely incorrectly.

If someone tells me that French lab was competent I would take that with a
heavy dose of salt.

The french Lab is not more competent than the others. It is competent and
that's enough for us.
Of course it is French, and it seems to be a problem to you.
France, as you know, is a Republic. Well, call it Repubblican Lab
Think about it.

Quoted message said:

Montesquiou said:

The french Lab is not more competent than the others. It is competent and
that's enough for us.
Of course it is French, and it seems to be a problem to you.
France, as you know, is a Republic. Well, call it Repubblican Lab
Think about it.

We must have different ideas of what a competent lab is,
because I certainly wouldn't say that a lab which releases
confidential information about lab test results, could be
considered competent. i.e. both LA and FL test results.
In fact, I would be asking why this lab is still a contractor
for the UCI...

CowPunk said:

Montesquiou said:

The french Lab is not more competent than the others. It is competent and
that's enough for us.
Of course it is French, and it seems to be a problem to you.
France, as you know, is a Republic. Well, call it Repubblican Lab
Think about it.

We must have different ideas of what a competent lab is,
because I certainly wouldn't say that a lab which releases
confidential information about lab test results, could be
considered competent. i.e. both LA and FL test results.
In fact, I would be asking why this lab is still a contractor
for the UCI...

If the UCI hired the labs, you'd never see a positive test. These labs
are all certified and chosen by WADA (which is empowered by the IOC)

If conspiracy is an issue, is it possible that for a price, a tainted sample
container was provided specifically for Landis???

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

Quoted message said:

If the UCI hired the labs, you'd never see a positive test. These labs
are all certified and chosen by WADA (which is empowered by the IOC)

Oh? but previous posters have stated that a lab would never fudge test
results because they have no motive to do so. They get paid to do
a test and don't have any motive to commit such a crime.

So I'll ask my question again. How does a "certified" lab remain
certified
after releasing confidential information about test results to the
press for
publicity?

Don't you think it's odd that FL was the only positive test during the
entire
tour? And it's the same lab that tried to screw LA. Don't you think
that
just maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit of "payback" going on here
for
LA's comments about the lab to the media?

CowPunk wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Sounds like questions for Mike Vandeman,

Has he got the clearance for it? You can't be too careful, or drunk.

--
Bill Asher

The Paris lab must be really good at detecting doping offenses, since
they had the second highest rate of positive samples in 2005 of all 33
WADA labs worldwide. 5.3% of the Paris lab's A samples tested
positive, compared to 2.1% of all A samples worldwide.

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/LABSTATS_2005.pdf

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If conspiracy is an issue, is it possible that for a price, a tainted
sample container was provided specifically for Landis???

If the test hasn't changed in about 10 years, then no.

There is a box full of non-numbered plastic specimen jars in sealed plastic
bags. The rider simply grabs one out of the box, tears open the plastic bag,
and takes the jar to the bathroom or where ever riders are peeing to provide
a sample. When he returns (he is observed at all times from the moment of
notification), he selects another pair of non-numbered specimen jars in
sealed plastic bags from a different box and hands the bag and the jar with
the urine to a doping control worker. The worker measures the specific
gravity of the urine to see if it is sufficient (perhaps the temperature for
correctness also). If it is, he pours x cc's into each of the paired jars
and seals them. All this is done in the presence of the rider.

Quoted message said:

The Paris lab must be really good at detecting doping offenses, since
they had the second highest rate of positive samples in 2005 of all 33
WADA labs worldwide. 5.3% of the Paris lab's A samples tested
positive, compared to 2.1% of all A samples worldwide.

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/LABSTATS_2005.pdf

So here's a question:

Why do they use the same lab for the A and B tests? Wouldn't it make
sense to ship the A samples to one lab, and ship the B samples to
another lab? That way, there would be two custody streams and
conspiracy theories would be less plausible.

Yes, this would be more expensive because you would have two shipments
a day instead of one, but in the context of an event like the TdF the
added cost would seem tolerable.

Carl Sundquist said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If conspiracy is an issue, is it possible that for a price, a tainted
sample container was provided specifically for Landis???

If the test hasn't changed in about 10 years, then no.

There is a box full of non-numbered plastic specimen jars in sealed plastic
bags. The rider simply grabs one out of the box, tears open the plastic bag,
and takes the jar to the bathroom or where ever riders are peeing to provide
a sample. When he returns (he is observed at all times from the moment of
notification), he selects another pair of non-numbered specimen jars in
sealed plastic bags from a different box and hands the bag and the jar with
the urine to a doping control worker. The worker measures the specific
gravity of the urine to see if it is sufficient (perhaps the temperature for
correctness also). If it is, he pours x cc's into each of the paired jars
and seals them. All this is done in the presence of the rider.

Unless, of course, The Amazing Randi or Penn and Teller were in on the
conspiracy.

Quoted message said:

CowPunk said:

Montesquiou said:

The french Lab is not more competent than the others. It is competent and
that's enough for us.
Of course it is French, and it seems to be a problem to you.
France, as you know, is a Republic. Well, call it Repubblican Lab
Think about it.

We must have different ideas of what a competent lab is,
because I certainly wouldn't say that a lab which releases
confidential information about lab test results, could be
considered competent. i.e. both LA and FL test results.
In fact, I would be asking why this lab is still a contractor
for the UCI...

If the UCI hired the labs, you'd never see a positive test. These labs
are all certified and chosen by WADA (which is empowered by the IOC)

Which has essentially nothing whatever to do with professional cycling. It does
host one race every four years about on par with a lesser classic.

Ron

William Asher said:

Ken said:

If conspiracy is an issue, is it possible that for a price, a tainted
sample container was provided specifically for Landis???

So you're saying they had a tainted sample container ready for Landis just
in case he won Stage 17?

No, a tainted sample container simply at hand for whenever it might prove
convenient. Floyd, or whoever or whatever.

l'Equipe will sell more papers no matter who it is that gets busted.

Ron

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is the issue of sabotage really that far outside the realm of
possibility? I'm not so sure.

Some years ago while sitting in the infield at Masters Track Nationals,
I overheard some guys talking about going to Worlds later that year.
One guy had never been, the other many times. The never-been guy was
asking about all manner of important things like getting from the
airport to the track, hotels, where to eat, etc... The old hand kept
focusing on ONE thing: don't take any food or drink from anyone and
don't leave a water bottle unattended at any time. He was obsessed
with protecting himself from someone tampering with his food and water.

Why would anyone be so concerned about something like that? It's only
a Masters' level competition and the only real reward is bragging
rights. Who would be so low as to bring down a competitor by tampering
with his water bottles just to attain unearned bragging rights? I
guess there are people out there who would do that. Otherwise, why was
the guy so concerned about it? He didn't think it up, he'd been
advised by others, some of whom had raced at the elite international
level. They must have KNOWN something that perhaps the rest of us
would only suspect.

Well, if someone would stoop that low for bragging rights, imagine what
someone might do to earn the sort of money, both prize money and future
contracts, that moving up the finish order at the Tour would bring.

Of course, there's also the possibility that someone, a well-meaning
someone, tried to help Landis without his knowledge. Any one of his
coaches, directors, soigneurs, teammates, etc... could have put who
knows what into his food, water, chamois creme, etc... Maybe his
director or some other person within the team's organization, who
helped all his former disgraced teammates and who knew that Landis
would not dope, did something without his knowledge.

I try to keep things in perspective. I will let you choose which scenario
is
more likely.

Option A is any version, single or multiple, of your situations above.

Option B is that Floyd knowingly took illegal, performance enhancing
substances.

If you were betting your house which would you choose?

Frankly (pardon the pun),

I don't think either scenario represents what happened. I believe it
was a faulty test. As the manufacturer of the equipment used to do the
testing for exogenous testosterone himself has stated, there's a huge
likelyhood of false-positives. Okay, not huge, but large enough as to
cast serious doubts on the validity of the test results.

As for the T/E ratio itself being out of whack, there are any number of
plausible explanations for that. Time will tell, I guess.

I am confused, your post was about all of the possibilities of how he could
have gotten drugs into his system but your response is that the test is
wrong. What am I missing?