Considering a 'bent

Quoted message said:

I think I would like

Stop there! I've seen it more than once that someone goes into 'bents
with well-researched preconceptions about what they want but when they
get some time in on real ones they end up using something else entirely.

So my advice would be get time in on as many models as you can find and
/then/ decide what you want (possibly extending to forgetting the whole
thing).

Quoted message said:

under seat steering, mostly because having my
arms hang from bars seems like it would be less comfortable, plus I
like the idea of a less obstructed view.

I prefer USS myself, but I've used ASS a fair bit and the comfort
difference is actually negligible. While "superman" type bars do get in
the line of view, tiller bars typically don't, being held just above the
chest. So you can get ASS that doesn't compromise on what you're really
after (comfort and view)., and it should be better aerodynamically so
that means faster, and you say you want speed.

Quoted message said:

I also think I would like
more of a high-racer type than a low racer. This would be for improved
visibilty, and being able to participate in pacelines with upright
bikes and have it work to some degree.

Experienced 'bent riders typically find the visibility thing is a bit of
a non-issue. As for the paceline, you'll need to be aware that 'bents
and uprights have their relative strengths in different places so even
if you're higher up it may not work that well. But I've not tried it
(i'm slow and don't race), so that's a "possible" rather than a
"definite" in the problem stakes.

Quoted message said:

I have long legs (shins in
particular) so I'm not too worried about starting or stopping. But I
really want speed and stability, so maybe a low racer is the way to
go?

No particular reason for a low to be more stable than a high: I think
handling differences will be implementation specific, so again try
things out to see.

Quoted message said:

Mostly I've been looking at the bikes from Challenge. So what do I
want? A Serian, a Hurricane, or a Jester? Or something else? And why?

The times I've tried Challenge the seat really didn't agree with me that
much at all. If the seat isn't to your liking then the point of getting
a 'bent tends to become rather limited... You may like Challenge seats
where I don't, but the only way to be sure is to try them, and the same
goes for other manufacturers (quite a lot of the preference difference
between my HP Velotechnik Streetmachine and my wife's Nazca Fiero is
down to the difference in the seat, hers being cut away around the
shoulder blades and mine supporting them, she prefers hers, I prefer mine).

Try everything you can get your hands on. Then you'll know what you want.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

<[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted message said:

I race upright bikes, like to ride fast, and just ride a lot in
general.

Bike racing (UCI) and recumbents don't jive. %^P

You should be aware that there are people, some quite
accomplished fast upright riders, who don't end up
getting what they expect when they try recumbents.

It's best to calibrate your expectations by trying as
many different recumbents as you can before you
buy. Yes, there is a body adjustment time,-- slightly
different muscles used, for instance. Be prepared
to spin, spin, spin for hills. Push too hard, too fast
on a recumbent, and you may damage your knees.

Quoted message said:

The idea behind getting a recumbent would be to just ride
around for fun,

I have three different recumbent bikes. The one I choose to
"ride around for fun" isn't the fastest, newest, or most expensive.
It's a BikeE! %^) But that almost certainly isn't the bike
for you! I also have a Tour Easy for touring and a Volae
Sport for road riding.

Quoted message said:

and perhaps to do some endurance races.

Increased comfort and better ergonomics of recumbents
may help with endurance.

Quoted message said:

I think I would like under seat steering,

Note, USS may be less aerodynamic than OSS.

Quoted message said:

I also think I would like more of a high-racer type than a low
racer. This would be for improved visibilty,

Visibility differences between low and high racers may be
less than you think.

Quoted message said:

and being able to participate in pacelines with upright
bikes

Participation in pacelines may depend more on the
group dynamics of the upright riders. You may be
like Rudolf, not welcome to join their games. %^)
A high racer may be more compatible with their
view of what a proper bike is,-- at least it has
wheels and wheelbase similar to their bikes.

Quoted message said:

and have it work to some degree.

Different recumbents will have different slipstream
potential. I ride both my Voale high racer and
my Tour Easy LWB with friends who ride uprights.
This isn't team/club riding, but mainly social riding,--
a friend and me riding mostly side-by-side.

On the rare occasion when we ride nose-to-tail, I
get plenty of benefit when they're pulling regardless
of which bike I'm on.

When I'm on my Tour Easy, riding into a strong
wind I often do the pulling. That bike has a front fairing
that probably adds 2-3 mph for the same pedalling
effort once wind speed is 20 mph or higher. I suspect
the Tour Easy generates a larger "shadow" than the
Volae, just based on the difference in front profile.

Of course, going up hill the 38 lbs the Tour Easy
weighs is not necessarily an advantage. %^P

Quoted message said:

[...] I really want speed and stability, so maybe a
low racer is the way to go?

All other things being equal, speed advantage goes
to the lower bike.

Stability at speed likely goes to the longer wheelbase bike.

Acceleration and climbing advantage generally goes
to the lighter bike and stiffer frame.

But the only way to know what works best for
you is to try them.

Quoted message said:

Mostly I've been looking at the bikes from Challenge. So what do I
want? A Serian, a Hurricane, or a Jester? Or something else? And why?

If it's "about the bike", a carbon fiber lower racer may be
the answer. http://www.velokraft.com

Check out the message boards at www.bentrideronline.com.
Join and ask your questions there, there are a number of
fast recumbent riders who seem to hang out there.

Jon

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

I think I would like

Stop there!  I've seen it more than once that someone goes into 'bents
with well-researched preconceptions about what they want but when they
get some time in on real ones they end up using something else entirely.

So my advice would be get time in on as many models as you can find and
/then/ decide what you want (possibly extending to forgetting the whole
thing).

Wise words I'm sure!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under seat steering, mostly because having my
arms hang from bars seems like it would be less comfortable, plus I
like the idea of a less obstructed view.

I prefer USS myself, but I've used ASS a fair bit and the comfort
difference is actually negligible.  While "superman" type bars do get in
the line of view, tiller bars typically don't, being held just above the
chest.  So you can get ASS that doesn't compromise on what you're really
after (comfort and view)., and it should be better aerodynamically so
that means faster, and you say you want speed.

I was thinking mostly about shoulder comfort, but I suppose I just
have to try to see. I'm not worried that ASS would obstruct my view in
a way that would make me uncomfortable or nervous, just that the more
open view appeals to me for some reason.

I do want speed, but since I won't be measuring against other racing
recumbents, the difference with USS probably won't make much of a
difference. It would be fun to come clean everyone's clock at out
local TT series (for uprights).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also think I would like
more of a high-racer type than a low racer. This would be for improved
visibilty, and being able to participate in pacelines with upright
bikes and have it work to some degree.

Experienced 'bent riders typically find the visibility thing is a bit of
a non-issue.  As for the paceline, you'll need to be aware that 'bents
and uprights have their relative strengths in different places so even
if you're higher up it may not work that well.  But I've not tried it
(i'm slow and don't race), so that's a "possible" rather than a
"definite" in the problem stakes.

I would only ride in a paceline with a handful of friends for the
novelty of them trying to hold my wheel as I punch a small hole in the
air with my 400W. But apart from the differing strengths and
weaknesses, do you think a high-racer type would be more likely to be
able to succesfully paceline with uprights?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have long legs (shins in
particular) so I'm not too worried about starting or stopping. But I
really want speed and stability, so maybe a low racer is the way to
go?

No particular reason for a low to be more stable than a high: I think
handling differences will be implementation specific, so again try
things out to see.

I was considering the longer wheelbase of low-racer types, but I
suppose you are correct that there are many other factors at play.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mostly I've been looking at the bikes from Challenge. So what do I
want? A Serian, a Hurricane, or a Jester? Or something else? And why?

The times I've tried Challenge the seat really didn't agree with me that
much at all.  If the seat isn't to your liking then the point of getting
a 'bent tends to become rather limited...  You may like Challenge seats
where I don't, but the only way to be sure is to try them, and the same
goes for other manufacturers (quite a lot of the preference difference
between my HP Velotechnik Streetmachine and my wife's Nazca Fiero is
down to the difference in the seat, hers being cut away around the
shoulder blades and mine supporting them, she prefers hers, I prefer mine).

Try everything you can get your hands on.  Then you'll know what you want.

The seat is something that I was concerned about. I am 6'3", so I'd
want something that could accomodate the length of my back properly.

Part of my problem is I live in rural Norway. Not that in the
civilized world there are recumbent shops on every corner, but here
they are indeed scarce. So trying lots of bikes is going to prove
difficult. There is however an HP Velotechnik dealer not that far
away. Their adjustable seat looks promising on their website. Maybe a
Speedmachine is in my future... A test ride at least.

Thanks for the info.

Joseph

[email hidden] wrote:

[cuuuuuuut]

Quoted message said:

I was thinking mostly about shoulder comfort, but I suppose I just
have to try to see. I'm not worried that ASS would obstruct my view in
a way that would make me uncomfortable or nervous, just that the more
open view appeals to me for some reason.

The shoulder comfort is just fine on my cruzbike freerider with big
handlebars. I dont think other recumbents with normal steering has
any worse shoulder comfort. I think it will be fine on all.

Quoted message said:

I do want speed, but since I won't be measuring against other racing
recumbents, the difference with USS probably won't make much of a
difference. It would be fun to come clean everyone's clock at out
local TT series (for uprights).

Are you sure you are allowed to use a recumbent in a upright race?
They are usually uptight! it must be the hard saddle.

[cuuuuuut]

Quoted message said:

Part of my problem is I live in rural Norway. Not that in the
civilized world there are recumbent shops on every corner, but here
they are indeed scarce. So trying lots of bikes is going to prove
difficult. There is however an HP Velotechnik dealer not that far
away. Their adjustable seat looks promising on their website. Maybe a
Speedmachine is in my future... A test ride at least.

You might want to try this guy
www.sykkel-bent.no

He has almost the same kind of bike as i do, only the handlebars
are different and it has more gears. I frequent the cruzbike forum,
where he talks about his ride with racers. He might give you some
advice.

On the cruzbike forum i read that the cruzbike Silvio frame is really
fast and it takes standard road racing parts.

JonB

Jon Bendtsen said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[cuuuuuuut]

Quoted message said:

I was thinking mostly about shoulder comfort, but I suppose I just
have to try to see. I'm not worried that ASS would obstruct my view in
a way that would make me uncomfortable or nervous, just that the more
open view appeals to me for some reason.

The shoulder comfort is just fine on my cruzbike freerider with big
handlebars. I dont think other recumbents with normal steering has
any worse shoulder comfort. I think it will be fine on all.

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do want speed, but since I won't be measuring against other racing
recumbents, the difference with USS probably won't make much of a
difference. It would be fun to come clean everyone's clock at out
local TT series (for uprights).

Are you sure you are allowed to use a recumbent in a upright race?
They are usually uptight! it must be the hard saddle.

Probably not, but it is rather informal, so my times might not count,
but they would certainly let me ride and report my times.

Quoted message said:

[cuuuuuut]

Quoted message said:

Part of my problem is I live in rural Norway. Not that in the
civilized world there are recumbent shops on every corner, but here
they are indeed scarce. So trying lots of bikes is going to prove
difficult. There is however an HP Velotechnik dealer not that far
away. Their adjustable seat looks promising on their website. Maybe a
Speedmachine is in my future... A test ride at least.

You might want to try this guy
       www.sykkel-bent.no

He has almost the same kind of bike as i do, only the handlebars
are different and it has more gears. I frequent the cruzbike forum,
where he talks about his ride with racers. He might give you some
advice.

I'll contact that guy for advice, but he is about 5 hours drive from
me, so unlikely I'll go try/buy one of his bikes. If I travel, I'll go
someplace like Denmark and find a place with a big selection and
combine the trip with some other task.

Quoted message said:

On the cruzbike forum i read that the cruzbike Silvio frame is really
fast and it takes standard road racing parts.

That's pretty cool. I could use the same race wheels. I'm 6'3", so I
wonder how open my position would be. Does it make any differenc ein
terms of power how open or closed one is?

Thanks for tips.

Joseph

email hidden said:

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

There are two kinds of USS--the kind that has your hands out in front,
arms extended to some extent, to the side of your thighs and the kind
that has your hands truly under your seat. If shoulder comfort is one
of your concerns, you don't want the latter kind of USS. You will end
up effectively reaching behind your back for the handlebars. My
shoulders don't like that after too long.

One other USS consideration is thigh interference. While long shins
help you put a foot down, long thighs are important too so that while
seated and leaned back you can comfortably get your knee beyond the
steering, especially on direct-steered (as opposed to those with a
linkage that lets them sit further back and out of the way) USS
systems.

The Challenge Seiran does seem like it should be at the top of your
list based on your criteria.

I used to be an USS fanatic, but have found that the "superman" or
tweener OSS steering is nice too and the view out the front is only a
little bit blocked by the steering mechanism. What is blocked/lost
more though is the *feeling* of having nothing in front of you that
USS gives over any type of OSS, including the "begging hamster" type.

So I'd also suggest one of the Bacchetta high racers.

But as Peter wrote, try everything you can.

Quoted message said:

Part of my problem is I live in rural Norway. Not that in the
civilized world there are recumbent shops on every corner, but here
they are indeed scarce. So trying lots of bikes is going to prove
difficult.

If it's something you'll be spending well over 10,000 Krone on then I
think it makes sense to spend a little more for insurance... see if you
can get a cheap flight to NL and once you're there it's /relatively/
easy to spend a weekend testing alternatives (even the other side of the
country is quite close and fairly well connected by public transport,
after all).

And I wouldn't worry too much about being 6'3": the Dutch are the
tallest nation in Europe and they're also the ones making the most
recumbents.

Quoted message said:

There is however an HP Velotechnik dealer not that far
away. Their adjustable seat looks promising on their website. Maybe a
Speedmachine is in my future... A test ride at least.

Certainly worth a test ride. I'm actually a bit ambivalent about the
Bodylink seat, finding the distinctly sized (choice of small, medium or
large) non-adjusting ones they used to use quite a bit more comfortable.
Having spent some considerable time faffing with lots of adjustments
just to endup with something not quite as good as what as I had to start
with is a bit frustrating, but obviously the market feedback suggests a
lot of happy customers that don't feel the same way!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Jon Bendtsen said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[cut]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The shoulder comfort is just fine on my cruzbike freerider with big
handlebars. I dont think other recumbents with normal steering has
any worse shoulder comfort. I think it will be fine on all.

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

Okay, i'll think about what my elbow angle is next time i ride
it. My bikes handlebar mount can be pushed forward, or backwards
which would change the angle.

[cuuuuuut]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Part of my problem is I live in rural Norway. Not that in the
civilized world there are recumbent shops on every corner, but here
they are indeed scarce. So trying lots of bikes is going to prove
difficult. There is however an HP Velotechnik dealer not that far
away. Their adjustable seat looks promising on their website. Maybe a
Speedmachine is in my future... A test ride at least.

You might want to try this guy
www.sykkel-bent.no

He has almost the same kind of bike as i do, only the handlebars
are different and it has more gears. I frequent the cruzbike forum,
where he talks about his ride with racers. He might give you some
advice.

I'll contact that guy for advice, but he is about 5 hours drive from
me, so unlikely I'll go try/buy one of his bikes. If I travel, I'll go
someplace like Denmark and find a place with a big selection and
combine the trip with some other task.

I am not sure Denmark is such a good place, maybe the netherlands
is more the place to look. In Denmark we have no manufactures other
than Leitra, and i doubt thats what you want. As for resellers, i
think there is only one big place, but take a look at:
http://liggecykelforeningen.dk/Generelt/Forhandlere
it is in Danish, but that shouldnt really bother a Norvegian.

The big reseller is
Cykel-Optimisten (Horsens) - http://www.cykel-optimisten.dk/
I was there myself. Nice guy, but he didnt have what i wanted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the cruzbike forum i read that the cruzbike Silvio frame is really
fast and it takes standard road racing parts.

That's pretty cool. I could use the same race wheels. I'm 6'3", so I
wonder how open my position would be. Does it make any differenc ein
terms of power how open or closed one is?

I think the open or closed thing makes a difference. The cruzbike
website and forum talks about pulling in the handlebars and thus
closing to gain extra strength. I tried it myself, and it appears
to be working, especially uphill. Unfortunately my stamina is not
yet there where i can do this for longer times.

The good thing about the cruzbike design is that even while the
seat is pretty static, then you can move the bottom bracket in
and out to adjust for a small or tall riders. So, if you want a more
closed position, move it in.

JonB

Jon Bendtsen said:

Quoted message said:

Jon Bendtsen said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[cut]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The shoulder comfort is just fine on my cruzbike freerider with big
handlebars. I dont think other recumbents with normal steering has
any worse shoulder comfort. I think it will be fine on all.

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

Okay, i'll think about what my elbow angle is next time i ride
it. My bikes handlebar mount can be pushed forward, or backwards
which would change the angle.

It seems like shoulder angle is 40-45 degrees if 0 is standing
up straight and having the arm hanging down.

Elbow angle was about 135.

Victor Kan said:

email hidden said:

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

There are two kinds of USS--the kind that has your hands out in front,
arms extended to some extent, to the side of your thighs[...]

I have been advocating that this should be called besides seat steering
(BSS).

Quoted message said:

and the kind
that has your hands truly under your seat. If shoulder comfort is one
of your concerns, you don't want the latter kind of USS. You will end
up effectively reaching behind your back for the handlebars. My
shoulders don't like that after too long.

The latter (or true USS) is also unnatural from a control (steering and
balance) standpoint. True USS has almost disappeared from the recumbent
scene, with almost all non-OSS bikes (and most trikes) having BSS.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Victor Kan said:

email hidden said:

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

There are two kinds of USS--the kind that has your hands out in front,
arms extended to some extent, to the side of your thighs[...]

I have been advocating that this should be called besides seat steering
(BSS).

Quoted message said:

and the kind
that has your hands truly under your seat. If shoulder comfort is one
of your concerns, you don't want the latter kind of USS. You will end
up effectively reaching behind your back for the handlebars. My
shoulders don't like that after too long.

The latter (or true USS) is also unnatural from a control (steering and
balance) standpoint. True USS has almost disappeared from the recumbent
scene, with almost all non-OSS bikes (and most trikes) having BSS.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Victor Kan said:

email hidden said:

Another thing was the elbow angle. When I read in bed for example with
elbows at 90 deg or more for any length of time my hands get numb.
Obviously apples and oranges, but the more extended arm position of
USS looks more comfortable to me.

There are two kinds of USS--the kind that has your hands out in front,
arms extended to some extent, to the side of your thighs[...]

I have been advocating that this should be called besides seat steering
(BSS).

Quoted message said:

and the kind
that has your hands truly under your seat. If shoulder comfort is one
of your concerns, you don't want the latter kind of USS. You will end
up effectively reaching behind your back for the handlebars. My
shoulders don't like that after too long.

The latter (or true USS) is also unnatural from a control (steering and
balance) standpoint. True USS has almost disappeared from the recumbent
scene, with almost all non-OSS bikes (and most trikes) having BSS.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful