Confused! Wedge or Flat?

"Paul Eaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me.

Well, that's because it *is* right! Running barefoot will
give anyone a great idea of how we are built to run, and
it's not heel first.

Quoted message said:

Yet all running shoes I have seen are wedge shape designed
to prevent the shock from landing on the heel, with only
limited cushioning under the forefoot.

Kind of strange, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Surely I should be running in a shoe with a flat sole with
the same cushioning from the front to rear? and surely
having a big fat wedge under the foot is going to
interfere with the natural mechanics of running?

Well, I think that too much cushioning makes it harder to
run as you'd be losing energy. All you need is just enough.
Also, when a shoe has excess cushioning the runner loses
"contact" with the running surface... you just can't feel it
much anymore through all the various materials.

Quoted message said:

I have seen some posts here pushing this stance, but it
still appears to be the minority. The majority of posts to
newbies(or relative newbie like myself) and in response to
injury (ie shinsplints) is to remind them to find a
friendly running shop and get 'properly' kitted out with
well fitting shoes (foam wedges).

I am confused.

Everyone has different opinions, and mine is that everyone
(not just those with great form, etc) would benefit by
wearing racing flats as their everyday trainers. I believe
that they "teach" you how to run properly faster than any
book or coach. My form changed when I started using them. I
couldn't help it. It just happens. You are forced to run
softly, striking with the midsole or balls of the feet. The
first couple weeks can be awkward (only time I've had
shinsplints in my life) as you make the transition, but it's
so worth it in the end.

Having said all that, I do believe in the use of a good
insert of some sort that has a nice arch support. A quality
insert in a flat is a much better pronation aid than "motion
contol" or "stability" shoes.

Again, this is all my opinion and of course anyone reading
it can make up their own mind.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

I have both wedges and flats, but neither is confused. How
do you tell anyway?

I have both wedges and flats, but neither is confused. How
do you tell anyway?

This is an interesting and unknown concept to me. If you run
with the forefoot/ball of foot first, what comes second?
Does your heel ever touch down? I'm confused!

Jenn

[email hidden] (Paul Eaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me. Yet all running shoes I have seen
are wedge shape designed to prevent the shock from landing
on the heel, with only limited cushioning under the
forefoot.

Surely I should be running in a shoe with a flat sole with
the same cushioning from the front to rear? and surely
having a big fat wedge under the foot is going to
interfere with the natural mechanics of running?

I have seen some posts here pushing this stance, but it
still appears to be the minority. The majority of posts to
newbies(or relative newbie like myself) and in response to
injury (ie shinsplints) is to remind them to find a
friendly running shop and get 'properly' kitted out with
well fitting shoes (foam wedges).

I am confused.

On 17 May 2004 12:42:58 -0700, [email hidden] (Jenn) wrote:

Dear Jenn,

Quoted message said:

I'm confused!

Don't be.

This is a trivial and completely pointless subject that
come up on here from time to time. You have those who
favour a graceful heel-to-toe movement as they stutter over
the ground at 2 mph, and those who flit like fairies over
the grass leaving barely a mark as they prance daintily
from ball-to-ball.

It's all nonsense. Run as you feel comfortable. If that's on
your heels, so be it. The style gurus are twits. Without
exception.

Emily. Who flits like a fairy. But doesn't care how
others run.

Paul Eaton said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me. Yet all running shoes I have seen
are wedge shape designed to prevent the shock from landing
on the heel, with only limited cushioning under the
forefoot.

As David mentioned, there's flats. Some trainers may have
flatter heels than most. I think I've seen descriptions (not
sure what brand or model) that are recommended for forefoot
strikers that are more even and have a little more something
in the forefoot. If you're running on trails, some of the
trail shoes have a lower profile for stability. They may use
a protection plate in the forefoot for running on point-side-
up rocky trails, but they can't increase the height of the
shoe without risking injury for the runner.

Quoted message said:

Surely I should be running in a shoe with a flat sole with
the same cushioning from the front to rear?

yep.

and surely having a big fat wedge

Quoted message said:

under the foot is going to interfere with the natural
mechanics of running?

Worse than that, they're unstable on uneven surfaces (like
newly emerging hay fields in the spring) and potentially
promote injury. And they hurt like heck on trail downhills
where there's less vertical space to land forefoot first.
It's hard to not catch your heel first.

Quoted message said:

I have seen some posts here pushing this stance, but it
still appears to be the minority. The majority of posts to
newbies(or relative newbie like myself) and in response to
injury (ie shinsplints) is to remind them to find a
friendly running shop and get 'properly' kitted out with
well fitting shoes (foam wedges).

Actually, the encouragement probably is (1) to increase
cadence which may result in a more forefoot landing and (2)
to get properly fitting shoes that have the right degree of
whatever (torsional control, heel control, etc) for your
biomechanics. Unfortunately, most shoes in shoe stores have
high heels. Well-fitting shoes does not mean foam wedges; it
means it fits the foot and biomechanics. [I think (not sure)
I've heard of some people slicing the heels off of otherwise
good shoes for them.]

And if you follow the recommendation to run lightly, flats
might work although most people aren't quite that light on
their feet.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

SwStudio said:

Well, that's because it *is* right! Running barefoot will
give anyone a great idea of how we are built to run, and
it's not heel first.

David, your capacity to write utter rubbish, post after
post, never ceases to amaze me.

How do you do it? Is there a school at which I could learn
this art? An examination I could take?

I feel that I have lost the title Uber-Troll Of Rec.Running
to you. How will I ever win it back for, try as I might, I
can't compete with your inconsistent, erroneous and inane
ramblings.

Emily. Wondering where it all went wrong.

"Jenn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

This is an interesting and unknown concept to me. If you
run with the forefoot/ball of foot first, what comes
second? Does your heel ever touch down? I'm confused!

It's not like what you are thinking, if you have a mental
picture of someone literally running on their toes (or close
to). It's more like the front part of the foot lands just
about the same time as the heel, almost the whole sole of
the shoe touching ground at the same time... but (here's the
important part).... the ball of the foot takes the weight of
the strike, then the heel very briefly makes light contact,
then the heel leaves the ground again as the ball remains in
contact for the push-off.

Try to increase your cadence and decrease your stride
length a little at first, to accomplish this - try for 3
footstrikes per second. At first it seems a little
awkward, but it's the way to go. You will have better
form, be less tired, and achieve faster race results. Just
be patient for a couple weeks as you get used to it (if
you were a big heel-striker).

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

In article said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me.

Well, different people will tell you different things.

Quoted message said:

Yet all running shoes I have seen are wedge shape designed
to prevent the shock from landing on the heel, with only
limited cushioning under the forefoot.

Most running shoes have decent cushioning both rear and
forefoot. The elevated heel reduces stress on the
achilles tendon.

Quoted message said:

Surely I should be running in a shoe with a flat sole with
the same cushioning from the front to rear?

My understanding is that the primary reason for relative
elevation difference is not to increase rearfoot cushioning.

Quoted message said:

and surely having a big fat wedge under the foot is going
to interfere with the natural mechanics of running?

Not sure what one means by "the natural mechanics of
running".

Quoted message said:

I have seen some posts here pushing this stance, but it
still appears to be the minority. The majority of posts to
newbies(or relative newbie like myself) and in response to
injury (ie shinsplints) is to remind them to find a
friendly running shop and get 'properly' kitted out with
well fitting shoes (foam wedges).

There are differences of opinion on this topic.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

"Paul Eaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me.

Well, that's because it *is* right! Running barefoot will
give anyone a great idea of how we are built to run, and
it's not heel first.

It's also not 70 miles per week or more with strenuous
interval training and yet this is an effective way to train
for performance.

The arguments about how "we were built to run" (whatever
that means)
(a) are an appeal to what is really a very vague notion, and
(b) ignore the fact that how "we were built to run" may not
necessarily by the most effective way given our goals.

Quoted message said:

Everyone has different opinions, and mine is that everyone
(not just those with great form, etc) would benefit by
wearing racing flats as their everyday trainers. I believe
that they "teach"

Yep. I personally doubt this -- you're an exceptionally
light runner. But the fact remains that neither of us can
really prove anything, so until someone does, this
impasse remains.

My opinion is that the bulk of the "training-in-flats"
boosters tend to justify their case with nutty arguments
(usually specious appeals to vague notions of how "we were
meant to run"😉 so I regard their position with scepticism.

Quoted message said:

Having said all that, I do believe in the use of a good
insert of some sort that has a nice arch support. A
quality insert in a flat is a much better pronation aid
than "motion contol" or "stability" shoes.

See, a hidden (and IMO crucial) detail you often omit is
that you use orthotics (IIRC) -- so you're effectively using
a sort of custom stability shoe, it's not truly minimalistic
anyway. Surely, we "weren't meant to run" using orthotics,
and yet you find these effective. FWIW, I don't doubt for a
moment that carefully fitted orthotics are several times
more effective than a medial post.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

I have wedges and flats, but none are confused.

I have wedges and flats, but none are confused.

SwStudio said:

"Paul Eaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me.

Well, that's because it *is* right! Running barefoot will
give anyone a great idea of how we are built to run, and
it's not heel first.

Of course, we are built to run on dirt, and not hard
surfaces like concrete or blacktop. If the inside of the
shoe has about as much give as dirt, then the shoe is more
like the natural surfaces.

And, of course, we are not really built to run. We are
really built to hang around in trees. Horses are built to
run.

Steve

Steve Hansen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

"Paul Eaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We are told to run forefoot/ball of foot first, indeed
this feels right for me.

Well, that's because it *is* right! Running barefoot
will give anyone a great idea of how we are built to
run, and it's not heel first.

Of course, we are built to run on dirt, and not hard
surfaces like concrete or blacktop. If the inside of the
shoe has about as much give as dirt, then the shoe is more
like the natural surfaces.

And, of course, we are not really built to run. We
are really built to hang around in trees. Horses are
built to run.

this just made me smile...any vet will tell you that if you
want to have a long, lucrative career specializing in equine
leg injuries is not a bad bet.

of course, a lot of that is due to breeding, etc. for
speed - but basically you have 1 ton of animal on long,
skinny legs...

now cheetahs... = )

Quoted message said:

Steve

Steve Hansen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio wrote: snip, snip Of course, we are built to run
on dirt.... And, of course, we are not really built to
run. We are really built to hang around in trees.> Steve

Are we or are we not built to run?

So how long do you hang around in the trees? What should a 3
day per week schedule look like? would this work Mon: LSH,
Wed: 30 x swing to 45 degress, 15 x swing to 90 degrees, 30
x swing 45 degrees, Sat: 20 Minutes branch to branch.

Oh yeah - and what is the best glove to wear?

Becca said:

Steve Hansen <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:<[email hidden]-
link.net>...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

"Paul Eaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Of course, we are built to run on dirt, and not hard
surfaces like concrete or blacktop. If the inside of the
shoe has about as much give as dirt, then the shoe is more
like the natural surfaces.

And, of course, we are not really built to run. We
are really built to hang around in trees. Horses are
built to run.

this just made me smile...any vet will tell you that if
you want to have a long, lucrative career specializing in
equine leg injuries is not a bad bet.

Quoted message said:

Steve

Almost....horses are born to run, but not with weight on
their backs. Possibly the worst place, anatomically, to put
weight on a moving horse, oddly enough!

Teresa in AZ (with two of the critters myself)