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Composite parts building.

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Cycling Equipment
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5 December 2007
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webhead
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  1. Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:
    http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

  2. webhead said:


    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth.

    Fiberglass is cheap, but it's horrible itchy stuff to work with.
    Kevlar is easier than carbon or glass, but it's expensive. A strong
    natural fiber like ramie might be good-- soft and relatively easy to
    work. Ramie is much stronger than linen (flax) or cotton. Either
    ramie or linen would be relatively easy to find as woven cloth for
    laying up a composite structure.

    Quoted message said:

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    I hope you've had a look at Damon Rinard's page on homebuilding carbon
    frames:

    http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbon_fiber.htm

    Chalo

  3. webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it ...So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Pretty much all production of CF or FG items are done either AROUND a core (that may either be left in place or removed by various means) or IN a mold. So something like a drop handlebar is definitely going to be a challenge as a DIY project...
    Building your own TT helmet around a sacrifical core could probably be a good first project, or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"?

    A tempo bar might also be reasonably within reach for a DIY project.

  4. On Dec 5, 10:57 am, dabac <dabac.314...@no-

    mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:
    webhead said:

    Hey all,

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    Quoted message said:

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it ...So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing
    I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Pretty much all production of CF or FG items are done either AROUND a
    core (that may either be left in place or removed by various means) or
    IN a mold. So something like a drop handlebar is definitely going to be
    a challenge as a DIY project...
    Building your own TT helmet around a sacrifical core could probably be
    a good first project, or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle
    "bag"?

    A tempo bar might also be reasonably within reach for a DIY project.

    --
    dabac

    Thats a good idea, a TT helmet crossed my mind as well.
    I though about making a wire mesh first (from something like chicken
    run fence wire mesh, thin wire big gaps) and drape my fiber around it
    in narrow ends, much like handlebar tape. That way I would have a form
    which would be hollow and lightweight.

    I saw that page from Damon Rinard but that's complex stuff to begin
    with. For instance I'm missing info on the usable polymers. Is an
    epoxy two compound resin the only polymer that's sufficient in terms
    of structural rigidity? I've known people to construct a boat hull
    with sheets of fiberglass and polyester coatings, sanding and
    smoothing it out in between layers but a boat hull is not a thin
    handlebar or frametube.
    I'll be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves when I should handle
    fiberglass 😉

    webhead

  5. webhead said:


    I though about making a wire mesh first (from something like chicken
    run fence wire mesh, thin wire big gaps)

    If you want to go that route there are better types of mesh available. Try a type used behind ventilator grilles to prevent rodents and bugs from entering for instance. There are several several different gauges and gap sizes available.
    It's not that easy to get such a design nice and symmetric though, at the very least you should consider adding some ribs and other braces for it to keep its shape during lay-up.

    webhead said:


    .. and drape my fiber around it in narrow ends, much like handlebar tape.

    Although that would work it would lend itself to unnecessary weight in the finished item. In FG manufacture you need a certain overlap for good adhesion between layers, and that method would give more an excessive amount of overlap. As big as possible w/o wrinkling is the ticket.

    And I still think you'd be better off sculpting your helmet out of Styrofoam, sealing the surface against solvents and then doing your layup on that. It'll retain its shape far better and give you a better shot at coming out with a symmetrical product.

    webhead said:

    ...For instance I'm missing info on the usable polymers. Is an epoxy two compound resin the only polymer that's sufficient in terms
    of structural rigidity?


    Rigidity is a joint characteristic of material properties and design features. There are lots of stuff out there that you can build strong enough components out of as long as you adapt the wall thicknesses, exterior dimensions (and perhaps internal bracers as well) to suit. But if you want a strength/weight ratio that makes it worthwhile to leave alloys behind then you're pretty much limited to the exotics.

    webhead said:

    ...I've known people to construct a boat hull
    with sheets of fiberglass and polyester coatings, sanding and
    smoothing it out in between layers but a boat hull is not a thin
    handlebar or frametube.

    apparently you've never seen a racing yacht up close...

    But the thing is simply that for most people the weight/strength ratio of the material that goes into a boat isn't critical enough to merit the extra cost of going to CF and epoxy. OTOH FG and polyester can easily be shaped into double-curved surfaces, which is a feature that is quite desirable in boat building.

    webhead said:

    ...I'll be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves when I should handle fiberglass.

    While that is a sensible thing it isn't the right priority. First protect your brain, then your hands. Get a GOOD mask, one capable of handling solvents and hydrocarbons. A simple dust filter is OK for the sanding but it's nowhere near enough for the actual resin work.

  6. webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    you could also try bamboo and epoxies to build lets say a simple
    single speed bike. nothing fancy. check what calffee bikes did. it is
    pretty awesome
    http://www.calfeedesign.com/bamboo.htm
    carlos
    http://www.bikingthings.com

  7. webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:
    http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF mixture.

    A summary of current natural fiber composites:
    http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2006/February/1183

    A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames:
    http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil.htm
    http://www.bmeres.com/carbonframe1.htm

    Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not
    done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat
    building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main
    nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than
    polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of
    cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes,
    but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation
    become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead",
    check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars!

  8. Peter Cole said:
    webhead said:

    Hey all,

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    Quoted message said:

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:
    http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    Quoted message said:

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Quoted message said:

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF mixture.

    A summary of current natural fiber composites:http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2006/February/1183

    A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames:http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil.htmhttp://www.bmeres.com/carbonframe1.htm

    Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not
    done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat
    building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main
    nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than
    polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of
    cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes,
    but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation
    become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead",
    check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars!- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Meres does a carbon/bamboo bike as well:
    http://www.bmeres.com/bambooframe.htm

  9. Peter Cole said:
    webhead said:

    Hey all,

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    Quoted message said:

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:
    http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    Quoted message said:

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Quoted message said:

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF mixture.

    A summary of current natural fiber composites:http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2006/February/1183

    A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames:http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil.htmhttp://www.bmeres.com/carbonframe1.htm

    Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not
    done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat
    building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main
    nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than
    polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of
    cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes,
    but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation
    become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead",
    check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars!- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Meres does a carbon/bamboo bike as well:
    http://www.bmeres.com/bambooframe.htm

  10. webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with. I'd get really, really
    thin sheets of fiberglass cloth and some blocks of foam, and carve the
    shape of what I wanted into the foam. When you're happy with the
    mold, fiberglass over it.

  11. webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with. I'd get really, really
    thin sheets of fiberglass cloth and some blocks of foam, and carve the
    shape of what I wanted into the foam. When you're happy with the
    mold, fiberglass over it.

  12. On Dec 5, 4:57 am, dabac <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"?

    I've worked with fiberglass in other situations, and have considered
    making something out of carbon fiber a few times. I never did for a
    variety of reasons, and the lack of need for anything in carbon that
    wouldn't be really difficult has always been one. You may have just
    inspired me...

  13. On Dec 5, 4:57 am, dabac <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"?

    I've worked with fiberglass in other situations, and have considered
    making something out of carbon fiber a few times. I never did for a
    variety of reasons, and the lack of need for anything in carbon that
    wouldn't be really difficult has always been one. You may have just
    inspired me...

  14. dabac said:


    And I still think you'd be better off sculpting your helmet out of
    Styrofoam, sealing the surface against solvents and then doing your
    layup on that. It'll retain its shape far better and give you a better
    shot at coming out with a symmetrical product.

    Epoxy resin will not disolve sf, when cured just disolve the core
    with acetone. For a strong resin chemical bond add any layers before
    cure. Some epoxies leave an amine blush after cure which must be
    removed to get a mechanical bond.

    Bob

  15. Quoted message said:
    webhead said:

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.
    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.
    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.
    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    Quoted message said:

    Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with. I'd get really, really
    thin sheets of fiberglass cloth and some blocks of foam, and carve the
    shape of what I wanted into the foam. When you're happy with the
    mold, fiberglass over it.

    Or a Deda carbon 'kit':
    http://www.yellowjersey.org/dedacarb.html
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  16. This is a very informative thread. Molding a TT helmet is probably the
    best form to start with.
    I'm very intrigued by using a dissolvable foam, it would allow for an
    easy construction and allow the core to be removed.
    I'm pretty confident I'll be able to construct whatever form I like as
    long as it isn't load bearing.

    From what I've gathered the load bearing characteristics come from
    carefully overlapping and choosing the right fiber orientation.
    Suppose I'd like to construct a load bearing beam or to return to my
    handlebar idea, how would this come into play? Is the rigidity
    provided by just using enough layers and crossing the fiber
    orientation?

  17. DanKMTB said:


    Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with.

    Make your bed with fiberglass covers. Sleep in it one night, and get
    back to us.

    Chalo

  18. dabac said:
    webhead said:

    I though about making a wire mesh first (from something like chicken
    run fence wire mesh, thin wire big gaps) If you want to go that route there are better types of mesh available.


    Try a type used behind ventilator grilles to prevent rodents and bugs
    from entering for instance. There are several several different gauges
    and gap sizes available.
    It's not that easy to get such a design nice and symmetric though, at
    the very least you should consider adding some ribs and other braces for
    it to keep its shape during lay-up.

    webhead said:

    .. and drape my fiber around it in narrow ends, much like handlebar
    tape. Although that would work it would lend itself to unnecessary weight in


    the finished item. In FG manufacture you need a certain overlap for good
    adhesion between layers, and that method would give more an excessive
    amount of overlap. As big as possible w/o wrinkling is the ticket.

    And I still think you'd be better off sculpting your helmet out of
    Styrofoam, sealing the surface against solvents and then doing your
    layup on that. It'll retain its shape far better and give you a better
    shot at coming out with a symmetrical product.

    webhead said:

    ...For instance I'm missing info on the usable polymers. Is an epoxy two
    compound resin the only polymer that's sufficient in terms
    of structural rigidity?


    Rigidity is a joint characteristic of material properties and design
    features. There are lots of stuff out there that you can build strong
    enough components out of as long as you adapt the wall thicknesses,
    exterior dimensions (and perhaps internal bracers as well) to suit. But
    if you want a strength/weight ratio that makes it worthwhile to leave
    alloys behind then you're pretty much limited to the exotics.

    webhead said:

    ...I've known people to construct a boat hull
    with sheets of fiberglass and polyester coatings, sanding and
    smoothing it out in between layers but a boat hull is not a thin
    handlebar or frametube. apparently you've never seen a racing yacht up close...

    But the thing is simply that for most people the weight/strength ratio
    of the material that goes into a boat isn't critical enough to merit the
    extra cost of going to CF and epoxy. OTOH FG and polyester can easily be
    shaped into double-curved surfaces, which is a feature that is quite
    desirable in boat building.

    webhead said:

    ...I'll be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves when I should handle
    fiberglass.

    While that is a sensible thing it isn't the right priority. First
    protect your brain, then your hands. Get a GOOD mask, one capable of
    handling solvents and hydrocarbons. A simple dust filter is OK for the
    sanding but it's nowhere near enough for the actual resin work.

    Epoxy is much nicer to work with rather than polyester resins. Not so
    smelly and it seems to flow better, and you get a stronger product for
    the same weight. (Or less weight.)

    Dorf

  19. Peter Cole said:
    webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:
    http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF
    mixture.

    A summary of current natural fiber composites:
    http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2006/February/1183

    A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames:
    http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil.htm
    http://www.bmeres.com/carbonframe1.htm

    Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not
    done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat
    building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main
    nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than
    polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of
    cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes,
    but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation
    become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead",
    check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars!

    Carbon is easy to work with, kevlar is a nightmare, it's very difficult
    to trim and fluffs up when sanded. A common practice is to make the
    outside layer normal glass so you can get a good finish to it, that is,
    you can sand and polish it easier. Carbon breaks catastrophically but
    kevlar will never break, so a layer of kevlar sandwiched in between
    other layers may save you in critical situations.

    Dorf

  20. Quoted message said:
    webhead said:

    Hey all,

    I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing
    that is easier said than done.

    I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth
    in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy
    from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get
    the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw
    (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought
    It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg
    A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass.

    So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a
    piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on.

    Experiences and testimonies anyone?

    Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with. I'd get really, really
    thin sheets of fiberglass cloth and some blocks of foam, and carve the
    shape of what I wanted into the foam. When you're happy with the
    mold, fiberglass over it.

    You'd be amazed at how accurate the eye can be when shaping things. Once
    you get the mold made you can pop out as many as you like for your friends.

    Dorf

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