complete idiots at Fox

Try going to scholar.google.com or pubmed and searching "gingivitis and
heart disease".

There are a few studies that back the claim that gum infections increase the
risk of heart disease. In addition, one of the proteins in the blood whose
concentrations are increased with inflamatison (c-reactive protein, CRP) is
a risk a factor for heart disease, indicating that inflammation, like with
gum disease, may be a risk factor.

There are also studies that show no relationship between gum disease and
heart disease.

http://intl-atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/11/1816

Fox reporters don't appear as idiotic as you think (at least in this case
;-) ).

Jeff

This phenomenon is very easy to explain, and it's a model I will likely
use in my upcoming book, because it's so easy to understand. The
"association" stuff is silly - you can link heart attacks to smelly
socks if you want. The reality is that oxidized cholesterol in the
arteries causes similar damage to arteries that plaque causes to gums.
Opportunistic, pathogenic bacteria then have a cozy home, but the
inflammatory process (essentially, the body damaging itself because you
keep eating oxidized cholesterol or don't clean you teeth well) is the
key, and CRP levels could indeed be raised in both situations. Stay
away from anything that causes oxidative stress (in the diet, this
means unsaturated fats, rancid meats, meats cooked while exposed to
air, powdered dairy, etc.), and eat antioxdiant rich foods:
blueberries, dark chocolate, etc., but you still should clean your
teeth. If your mouth has a sour smell in the morning, that bacteria's
not bad, but if you have rancid or really foul morning breath, that's a
bad sign, at least for your gums.

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease????? Give me
a friggin' break.

Hey, someone has colitis, he also has a stinky butt, washing their butt
with soap and water after every [censored] will cure his colitis, right?

That is the same stupid logic that is being used to equate brushing and
flossing ones teeth to avoid heart disease. It is pure unadulterated
nonsense.

The only good thing about it is that it illustrates so very clearly
just how idiotic these advanced degree pinheads can be. Anyone
connected with that study should be laughed out of the profession. The
fact that these morons can say this with a straight face and no-one in
the profession challenges it is absolutely pathetic and shows clearly
the state of the science. A complete joke.

TC

Jeff said:

Try going to scholar.google.com or pubmed and searching "gingivitis

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease".

There are a few studies that back the claim that gum infections

increase the

Quoted message said:

risk of heart disease. In addition, one of the proteins in the blood

whose

Quoted message said:

concentrations are increased with inflamatison (c-reactive protein,

CRP) is

Quoted message said:

a risk a factor for heart disease, indicating that inflammation, like

with

Quoted message said:

gum disease, may be a risk factor.

There are also studies that show no relationship between gum disease

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease.

http://intl-atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/11/1816

Fox reporters don't appear as idiotic as you think (at least in this

case

Quoted message said:

;-) ).

Jeff

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease????? Give me
a friggin' break.

It may. I think the jury is still out. But the indications are that
inflammation is a factor in heart disease. Of course, people should do other
things that are good for them, like loosing weight, excercising and not
doing stupid things, like smoking.

Quoted message said:

Hey, someone has colitis, he also has a stinky butt, washing their butt
with soap and water after every [censored] will cure his colitis, right?

No. Someone's stinky butt doesn't play a causal role in colitis. Inflamation
plays a causal role in heart disease.

Quoted message said:

That is the same stupid logic that is being used to equate brushing and
flossing ones teeth to avoid heart disease. It is pure unadulterated
nonsense.

Nope.

The hypothesis is based on scientific observations. It will take a few years
to sort this out.

Quoted message said:

The only good thing about it is that it illustrates so very clearly
just how idiotic these advanced degree pinheads can be. Anyone
connected with that study should be laughed out of the profession.

Why? There is good evidence that CRP (c-reactive peptide), a peptide that is
associated with inflammation is increased in people with heart disease.
Until you ask the questions and do the proper studies, you won't know
whether the hypothesis is true.

Quoted message said:

The
fact that these morons can say this with a straight face and no-one in
the profession challenges it is absolutely pathetic and shows clearly
the state of the science. A complete joke.

Actually, it shows that you actually have to study and understand
something. THen make hypotheses and test them with real scientific studies.

It is rather stupid to dismiss something until you look at the evidence.

What evidence have you looked at?

Jeff

Quoted message said:

TC

Jeff said:

Try going to scholar.google.com or pubmed and searching "gingivitis

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease".

There are a few studies that back the claim that gum infections

increase the

Quoted message said:

risk of heart disease. In addition, one of the proteins in the blood

whose

Quoted message said:

concentrations are increased with inflamatison (c-reactive protein,

CRP) is

Quoted message said:

a risk a factor for heart disease, indicating that inflammation, like

with

Quoted message said:

gum disease, may be a risk factor.

There are also studies that show no relationship between gum disease

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease.

http://intl-atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/11/1816

Fox reporters don't appear as idiotic as you think (at least in this

case

Quoted message said:

;-) ).

Jeff

Jeff wrote:
:: "TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease?????
::: Give me a friggin' break.
::
:: It may. I think the jury is still out. But the indications are that
:: inflammation is a factor in heart disease. Of course, people should
:: do other things that are good for them, like loosing weight,
:: excercising and not doing stupid things, like smoking.
::
::: Hey, someone has colitis, he also has a stinky butt, washing their
::: butt with soap and water after every [censored] will cure his colitis,
::: right?
::
:: No. Someone's stinky butt doesn't play a causal role in colitis.
:: Inflamation plays a causal role in heart disease.
::
::: That is the same stupid logic that is being used to equate brushing
::: and flossing ones teeth to avoid heart disease. It is pure
::: unadulterated nonsense.
::
:: Nope.
::
:: The hypothesis is based on scientific observations. It will take a
:: few years to sort this out.
::
::: The only good thing about it is that it illustrates so very clearly
::: just how idiotic these advanced degree pinheads can be. Anyone
::: connected with that study should be laughed out of the profession.
::
:: Why? There is good evidence that CRP (c-reactive peptide), a peptide
:: that is associated with inflammation is increased in people with
:: heart disease. Until you ask the questions and do the proper
:: studies, you won't know whether the hypothesis is true.

You are right. It is important to take care of /any/ inflammation in
preventing heart disease.

--
Juhana

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease????? Give me
a friggin' break.

No one said that it will STOP heart disease; however, there is evidence that
chronic infection, or low level inflamation, that releases the
pro-inflamitory prostaglandins (from arachadonic acid, through the COX 2 or
COX 3 pathway), can promote heart disease by setting up the conditions which
contribute to the build up of plaques in the arteries. So, taking care of
your gums can HELP prevent heart disease. Like not smoking will HELP prevent
heart disease (smoking elevates the 8-iso-PGF2a isoprostanes--among
others--which are an isomers of the inflammitory prostanglandins).

--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

TC said:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150211,00.html

Fighting Gum Disease Can Fight Heart Disease
Friday, March 11, 2005
By Miranda Hitti

Brushing and flossing not only battle gum disease (search) but also
help dodge heart disease.

Taking care of your teeth and gums may reduce your chances of heart
disease, the second leading cause of death for U.S. men and women
following cancer.

Chronic inflammation from gum disease has been linked to a greater risk
of heart disease. The latest findings on oral and heart health
highlight a direct association between certain bacteria in the mouth
and heart disease. Cleaning your teeth canhelp solve the problem.

Heart Disease, Gum Disease

Of course, dental health probably won't single-handedly defeat heart
disease. To best nurture your heart, you'll still need to be active,
eat healthfully, manage stress, and get whatever medical attention you
need. You can't eat lots of artery-clogging foods and then hope a
quick swirl of the toothbrush will undo the damage.

But look at it this way: You probably already have a toothbrush and
dental floss. They're cheap, readily available, and you don't have
to break a sweat or get a prescription to use them.

*********

What a pile of dog excrement!

The facts are that a diet high in refined carbs will cause heart
disease and dental and gum disease.

Any medical person who actually believes that treating a side symptom
(dental or gum disease) will somehow mitigate a serious symptom (heart
disease) is a complete and utter moron, just like the idiots at Fox who
write [censored] like this.

And only a naive moron is going to believe that the general population
is just going to give up refind carbs because somebody says it causes
heart disease. In an ideal world yes, in the real world it is pick up
a tooth brush and don't forget to floss.

Quoted message said:

This is what passes as medical science today!!!!!

TC

Then there are people who don't just cut out refined carbs but all
carbs instead of just following a healthy diet of so called "real"
foods as you call them. This of course is treating the side symptom
of lack of exercise.

You guys just do not get it.

A subject has two symptoms, A and B. Both are caused by cause C.
Treating symptom A does not mitigate symptom B and treating symptom B
does not mitigate symptom A. Treating cause C mitigates both symptoms A
and B.

It is pretty simple. Why you guys don't get it I'll never know. Must be
a combination of the the American (lack of) sensibility, american
naivete, and the american educational system. You guys are proving PT
Barnum right.

TC

Jeff said:

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease?????

Give me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a friggin' break.

It may. I think the jury is still out. But the indications are that
inflammation is a factor in heart disease. Of course, people should

do other

Quoted message said:

things that are good for them, like loosing weight, excercising and

not

Quoted message said:

doing stupid things, like smoking.

Quoted message said:

Hey, someone has colitis, he also has a stinky butt, washing their

butt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with soap and water after every [censored] will cure his colitis, right?

No. Someone's stinky butt doesn't play a causal role in colitis.

Inflamation

Quoted message said:

plays a causal role in heart disease.

Quoted message said:

That is the same stupid logic that is being used to equate brushing

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flossing ones teeth to avoid heart disease. It is pure

unadulterated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nonsense.

Nope.

The hypothesis is based on scientific observations. It will take a

few years

Quoted message said:

to sort this out.

Quoted message said:

The only good thing about it is that it illustrates so very clearly
just how idiotic these advanced degree pinheads can be. Anyone
connected with that study should be laughed out of the profession.

Why? There is good evidence that CRP (c-reactive peptide), a peptide

that is

Quoted message said:

associated with inflammation is increased in people with heart

disease.

Quoted message said:

Until you ask the questions and do the proper studies, you won't know

Quoted message said:

whether the hypothesis is true.

Quoted message said:

The
fact that these morons can say this with a straight face and no-one

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the profession challenges it is absolutely pathetic and shows

clearly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the state of the science. A complete joke.

Actually, it shows that you actually have to study and understand
something. THen make hypotheses and test them with real scientific

studies.

Quoted message said:

It is rather stupid to dismiss something until you look at the

evidence.

Quoted message said:

What evidence have you looked at?

Jeff

Quoted message said:

TC

Jeff said:

Try going to scholar.google.com or pubmed and searching

"gingivitis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease".

There are a few studies that back the claim that gum infections

increase the

Quoted message said:

risk of heart disease. In addition, one of the proteins in the

blood

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whose

Quoted message said:

concentrations are increased with inflamatison (c-reactive

protein,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CRP) is

Quoted message said:

a risk a factor for heart disease, indicating that inflammation,

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

gum disease, may be a risk factor.

There are also studies that show no relationship between gum

disease

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

heart disease.

http://intl-atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/11/1816

Fox reporters don't appear as idiotic as you think (at least in

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

case

Quoted message said:

;-) ).

Jeff

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You guys just do not get it.

A subject has two symptoms, A and B. Both are caused by cause C.
Treating symptom A does not mitigate symptom B and treating symptom B
does not mitigate symptom A. Treating cause C mitigates both symptoms A
and B.

Cause C would infection, and symptoms A and B would be gigivitis and heart
disease.

we got it.

Quoted message said:

It is pretty simple. Why you guys don't get it I'll never know. Must be
a combination of the the American (lack of) sensibility, american
naivete, and the american educational system. You guys are proving PT
Barnum right.

Actually, it is more like causes A (obesity), B (cholesterol), C
(triglycerides), D (diabetes), E (genetics), F (inflamation), G (lack of
excercise), H (smoking) each help cause I (heart disease).

But reducing any of any of the things that help cause I (heart disease), you
help reduce the incidence of heart disease (for a population) and the risk
of heart disease (for a particular person).

Reducing gum disease appears to reduce inflammation and may reduce heart
disease.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

TC

Jeff said:

"TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease?????

Give me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a friggin' break.

It may. I think the jury is still out. But the indications are that
inflammation is a factor in heart disease. Of course, people should

do other

Quoted message said:

things that are good for them, like loosing weight, excercising and

not

Quoted message said:

doing stupid things, like smoking.

Quoted message said:

Hey, someone has colitis, he also has a stinky butt, washing their

butt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with soap and water after every [censored] will cure his colitis, right?

No. Someone's stinky butt doesn't play a causal role in colitis.

Inflamation

Quoted message said:

plays a causal role in heart disease.

Quoted message said:

That is the same stupid logic that is being used to equate brushing

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flossing ones teeth to avoid heart disease. It is pure

unadulterated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nonsense.

Nope.

The hypothesis is based on scientific observations. It will take a

few years

Quoted message said:

to sort this out.

Quoted message said:

The only good thing about it is that it illustrates so very clearly
just how idiotic these advanced degree pinheads can be. Anyone
connected with that study should be laughed out of the profession.

Why? There is good evidence that CRP (c-reactive peptide), a peptide

that is

Quoted message said:

associated with inflammation is increased in people with heart

disease.

Quoted message said:

Until you ask the questions and do the proper studies, you won't know

Quoted message said:

whether the hypothesis is true.

Quoted message said:

The
fact that these morons can say this with a straight face and no-one

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the profession challenges it is absolutely pathetic and shows

clearly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the state of the science. A complete joke.

Actually, it shows that you actually have to study and understand
something. THen make hypotheses and test them with real scientific

studies.

Quoted message said:

It is rather stupid to dismiss something until you look at the

evidence.

Quoted message said:

What evidence have you looked at?

Jeff

Quoted message said:

TC

Jeff wrote:
> Try going to scholar.google.com or pubmed and searching

"gingivitis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> heart disease".
>
> There are a few studies that back the claim that gum infections
increase the
> risk of heart disease. In addition, one of the proteins in the

blood

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whose
> concentrations are increased with inflamatison (c-reactive

protein,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CRP) is
> a risk a factor for heart disease, indicating that inflammation,

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with
> gum disease, may be a risk factor.
>
> There are also studies that show no relationship between gum

disease

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> heart disease.
>
> http://intl-atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/11/1816
>
> Fox reporters don't appear as idiotic as you think (at least in

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

case
> ;-) ).
>
> Jeff

Now you're on the right track. The next step is to avoid
polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet, so that your body will make
the Mead acid intead of arachidonic, and then these inflammatory
problems will vanish, for all practical purposes. Very simple,
apparently too simple for those looking for complicated explanations to
grasp. Carbs have nothing to do with this. Just eat the "simple"
carbs will a good helping of saturated fatty acids, in the form of
butter or coconut oil, and you'll be doing your body a great favor.
And inflammatory problems will be no concern.

TC said:

So flossing your *teeth* is supposed to stop heart disease????? Give me
a friggin' break.

Look for TNF-alpha and heart disease and TNF-alpha and gum diseases
(or infections in general)

Increased synthesis of TNF-alpha is directly involved in the
pathogenesis of artery diseases by increasing oxidative processes.

TC said:

You guys just do not get it.

A subject has two symptoms, A and B. Both are caused by cause C.
Treating symptom A does not mitigate symptom B and treating symptom B
does not mitigate symptom A. Treating cause C mitigates both symptoms A
and B.

Well, since C is TNF-alpha, any inflammation may give you problems.
And inflammations induce TNF-alpha expression (and activation of
NFKappaB)

On 15 Mar 2005 14:16:24 -0800, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Now you're on the right track. The next step is to avoid
polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet, so that your body will make
the Mead acid intead of arachidonic, and then these inflammatory

I have a feeling that you only know about the effects of arachidonic
acid derived eicosanoids, and not about the series of EPA and DHGLA
(which easily is converted to arachidonic acid when presence of
omega-3 acids are lacking)

The effects of the 1- and 3-series are opposite to that of 2-series
products of COX.

Oleic acid do no good here at all, (while on the other side, no bad
neither).

For those looking strictly on total cholesterol, both omega-6 and
omega-3 are of the good thing since they decrease total cholesterol.
But those looking at the different effects of HDL and LDL, there is a
difference since omega-6 decrease only HDL while LDL is decreased by
omega-3 acids. While transfats increase LDL strictly and some
saturated fats increase HDL.

Alf Christophersen said:

On 15 Mar 2005 14:16:24 -0800, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Now you're on the right track. The next step is to avoid
polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet, so that your body will make
the Mead acid intead of arachidonic, and then these inflammatory

I have a feeling that you only know about the effects of arachidonic
acid derived eicosanoids, and not about the series of EPA and DHGLA
(which easily is converted to arachidonic acid when presence of
omega-3 acids are lacking)

My understanding is that EPA can never be converted to arachidonic
acid.

Quoted message said:

The effects of the 1- and 3-series are opposite to that of 2-series
products of COX.

Oleic acid do no good here at all, (while on the other side, no bad
neither).

For those looking strictly on total cholesterol, both omega-6 and
omega-3 are of the good thing since they decrease total cholesterol.
But those looking at the different effects of HDL and LDL, there is a
difference since omega-6 decrease only HDL while LDL is decreased by
omega-3 acids. While transfats increase LDL strictly and some
saturated fats increase HDL.

"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now you're on the right track. The next step is to avoid
polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet, so that your body will make
the Mead acid intead of arachidonic, and then these inflammatory
problems will vanish, for all practical purposes. Very simple,
apparently too simple for those looking for complicated explanations to
grasp. Carbs have nothing to do with this. Just eat the "simple"
carbs will a good helping of saturated fatty acids, in the form of
butter or coconut oil, and you'll be doing your body a great favor.
And inflammatory problems will be no concern.

Yeah, avoid those polyusaturated fatty acids, the ensuing brain damage will
make you forget about the inflammation, and the problem will be no concern.
--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that EPA can never be converted to arachidonic
acid.

That's right, but many PUFA compete for active COX.That's the clue
here.

To activate COX you need first of all substrates (freed by PLA2
(phospholipase A2) that is activated mostly by free radicals. And you
need lipoxides,eg. formed by Ca2+ activated lipoxygenase 5 (which may
also be triggered by free radicals from glucose downgrading, either by
NADPH oxidase or from leakage from mitochondria)

when active, COX converts DHGLA into PG1-series, arachidonate into
PG2-series and EPA into PG3-series. But, DHGLA produce inactive
PGE1,while EPA cannot produce TXA,while PGI3 is fully active. And most
other PG1 and PG3-series has opposite effects (there are about 80
variants here so I will not go into details.

What is interesting is that EPA binds around 10 times more effective
to active site, while having a Vmax much lower. Since enzymes and road
cross has much in common at abstraction (the mathematics is almost the
same, the hyperbola), concurring substrates of this kind is like
mixing smart sportscar (arachidonate) with lots of tanks in a road
cross :-) The more EPA, the more tanks there are around, and if diet
contain no omega-3, delta-5 desaturase (that has about same situation,
except that omega-3 just binds to enzyme and do not produce anything
(delta-6 do that work)(or was it opposite, do not have time to borrow
a book from some colleagues right now), binding of EpA brakes
arachidonate formation likewise DHGLA brakes EPA formation from the
substrate.) is slowed down. And at COX, lack of omega-3 let the enzyme
concentrate completely on arachidonate and produce quickly far more
PG's than produced in a mixture of EPA and AA. A 50%/50% mix may
reduce total PG production by far more than 50% because the
differences in Km and Vm.
(The same applies to DHGLA and AA,but the differences is far lower.
And if EPA is lacking, DHGLA will mostly be converted to AA in liver.

Dr_Dickie said:

Yeah, avoid those polyusaturated fatty acids, the ensuing brain damage will
make you forget about the inflammation, and the problem will be no concern.

Or the psychic depression coming from lack of EPA will possibly make
you end your life too fast to observe any bad effects on cell DNA
damages.

"Alf Christophersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dr_Dickie said:

Yeah, avoid those polyusaturated fatty acids, the ensuing brain damage

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

make you forget about the inflammation, and the problem will be no

concern.

Quoted message said:

Or the psychic depression coming from lack of EPA will possibly make
you end your life too fast to observe any bad effects on cell DNA
damages.

Like I always say, "If we would just do what our bodies were designed to do:
work hard, eat a ton of calories occasionally, starve sometimes, and die at
40; most of our problems would disappear."
Problem is, no one wants to get with the program. ;-)

--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov