Compact Frame sizing

In article <[email hidden]>

SMS said:

Sparky said:

It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.

Quoted message said:

I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
and it's down to $836 versus $700.

Quoted message said:

In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
$1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
road bicycle.

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

--
I'm trying a new usenet client for Mac, Nemo OS X.
You can download it at http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

landotter said:

SMS said:

Sparky said:

I'm looking at getting a road/commuter bike. I want disc brakes (for
the rain) and drop handlebars. I don't want to spend more than
$1,000.00. My target right now is the Schwinn Super Sport DBX. There
are some 2006's still available. My problem is I can't tell if I need
a small or a medium frame. I'm about 5'7". I have an 18" Yukon Giant
MTB and I think it's just a touch big. Any idea what frame size would
be best? I don't really have an opportunity to ride one.

Is there some reason you're looking at a compact frame? For most riders,
a compact frame is a very bad idea.

[drivelsnip]

That's [censored]. Just ride a properly sized compact and you can avoid
using a bunch of spacers or stupid stem dohicky to get the bars at a
comfortable height.

You could eliminate spacers if the compact frame had a longer headtube
than a flat top with the same top tube length (measured horizontally),
but with most compacts I think you'd need to buy a custom geometry
to get that. For the compact frames I looked at when I bought my
last bike, when I picked the compact frame size with the top tube length
I prefer I found the head tube was almost exact the same length as my
other bikes, with few exceptions (the Trek Pilot might have been one).
The one I bought (a Gunnar Sport) has the same stem angle and number
of spacers as my horizontal top tube bikes, and the same cockpit length,
it just has more seat post showing.

Quoted message said:

You might think a flat top looks better--but please, stop with the
[censored] to back up your "faith". The problem is that people buy
frames too small, whether it be sloping top tube or not.

Certainly if you are willing to ride a bike with a longer top tube
you'll be able to get by with fewer spacers, but this is equally true
whether the top tube slopes or not. To reduce the stack of spacers
you would need a longer head tube relative to the horizontal top tube
length, and the standard geometries of the sloping tube bikes I've
looked at mostly don't provide this.

Personally I don't care much about the slope of the top tube, nor
the height of the stack of spacers (except that the latter is limited
if the steerer isn't steel). I just don't think that the standard
geometry of most sloping top tube bikes is designed to achieve want
you want.

Dennis Ferguson

SMS said:

Run like hell away from any compact frame road bicycle.

If I had followed this advice six years ago, I would have failed to
buy the best-fitting and most comfortable and reliable bike I've ever
owned.

People come in all different shapes, sizes, builds, proportions. The
availability of more different approaches to frame design only
increases the probability that anyone can find the perfect fit.

Some manufacturers may use compact frames as a way to sell less for
more. So condemn those manufacturers, not the design, because other
manufacturers use the same approach to make better-fitting road bikes
available to people who once had to accept more uncomfortable
compromises.

r

Sparky said:

In article <[email hidden]>

SMS said:

Sparky said:

It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.

I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
and it's down to $836 versus $700.
In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
$1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
road bicycle.

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

r

rdclark said:

Sparky said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

SMS said:

Sparky wrote:
> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
and it's down to $836 versus $700.
In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
$1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
road bicycle.

Quoted message said:

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

ISTM that a CF fork is right up there with low spoke-count wheels on
the list of things you *don't want* on a commuter.

(Hey, if you buy a Trek Portland, you can get both stupid things for
one high price.) ;-)

Ozark Bicycle said:

rdclark said:

On Sep 24, 12:08 am, Sparky <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SMS<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Sparky wrote:
>> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
>> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
>> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
>> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
>> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
>> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
>> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
> I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
> coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
> usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
> and it's down to $836 versus $700.
> In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
> $1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
> bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
> difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
> road bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Quoted message said:

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

ISTM that a CF fork is right up there with low spoke-count wheels on
the list of things you *don't want* on a commuter.

(Hey, if you buy a Trek Portland, you can get both stupid things for
one high price.) ;-)

Don't forget the mono [censored] frame!

Dennis Ferguson said:

landotter said:

SMS said:

Sparky wrote:
> I'm looking at getting a road/commuter bike. I want disc brakes (for
> the rain) and drop handlebars. I don't want to spend more than
> $1,000.00. My target right now is the Schwinn Super Sport DBX. There
> are some 2006's still available. My problem is I can't tell if I need
> a small or a medium frame. I'm about 5'7". I have an 18" Yukon Giant
> MTB and I think it's just a touch big. Any idea what frame size would
> be best? I don't really have an opportunity to ride one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there some reason you're looking at a compact frame? For most riders,
a compact frame is a very bad idea.

Quoted message said:

[drivelsnip]

Quoted message said:

That's [censored]. Just ride a properly sized compact and you can avoid
using a bunch of spacers or stupid stem dohicky to get the bars at a
comfortable height.

You could eliminate spacers if the compact frame had a longer headtube
than a flat top with the same top tube length (measured horizontally),
but with most compacts I think you'd need to buy a custom geometry
to get that. For the compact frames I looked at when I bought my
last bike, when I picked the compact frame size with the top tube length
I prefer I found the head tube was almost exact the same length as my
other bikes, with few exceptions (the Trek Pilot might have been one).
The one I bought (a Gunnar Sport) has the same stem angle and number
of spacers as my horizontal top tube bikes, and the same cockpit length,
it just has more seat post showing.

Quoted message said:

You might think a flat top looks better--but please, stop with the
[censored] to back up your "faith". The problem is that people buy
frames too small, whether it be sloping top tube or not.

Certainly if you are willing to ride a bike with a longer top tube
you'll be able to get by with fewer spacers, but this is equally true
whether the top tube slopes or not. To reduce the stack of spacers
you would need a longer head tube relative to the horizontal top tube
length, and the standard geometries of the sloping tube bikes I've
looked at mostly don't provide this.

Personally I don't care much about the slope of the top tube, nor
the height of the stack of spacers (except that the latter is limited
if the steerer isn't steel). I just don't think that the standard
geometry of most sloping top tube bikes is designed to achieve want
you want.

Dennis Ferguson- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dennis, how do you like your Gunnar Sport? I'm considering purchasing
one in the future.

Smokey

Quoted message said:

Dennis, how do you like your Gunnar Sport? I'm considering purchasing
one in the future.

I can recommend it. It is the bike I commute on in California so, these
days, it gets more mileage than my other bicycles.

I do have a list of tiny things I wish were different on the bike:

- The pump peg is too fat, and too low on the headtube, to be useful
for the frame-fit pumps I have.

- Fenders fit best on a bike with standard reach calipers if the
brake pads are close to the bottom of the slot. On my Gunnar
they are about half way up, which makes it a bit tight under there.

- There's only one eyelet on each rear dropout, which means if you
mount both a rack and a fender it is hard to do it in a way which
lets you remove either without effecting the other (this is probably
only a problem of my own making; I have both, but I like to
remove them if I won't be needing them).

- I wish the hole in the chainstay bridge was threaded.

I actually went to the shop with the intention of buying a bike with
a Soma frame, but the Gunnar was on sale and it looked so pretty
that I let the salesperson up-sell me.

Dennis Ferguson

Dennis Ferguson said:

Quoted message said:

Dennis, how do you like your Gunnar Sport? I'm considering purchasing
one in the future.

I can recommend it. It is the bike I commute on in California so, these
days, it gets more mileage than my other bicycles.

I do have a list of tiny things I wish were different on the bike:

- The pump peg is too fat, and too low on the headtube, to be useful
for the frame-fit pumps I have.

- Fenders fit best on a bike with standard reach calipers if the
brake pads are close to the bottom of the slot. On my Gunnar
they are about half way up, which makes it a bit tight under there.

Dopey! I didn't notice that the last time I checked one out. It's off
my personal wanna list then, unless you can sincerely get a 28mm tire
and a 35mm mudguard in there at the same time.

Sparky said:

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

One more reason to get the Novara.

In article <[email hidden]>,

rdclark said:

Sparky said:

In article <[email hidden]>

SMS said:

Sparky wrote:
> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
and it's down to $836 versus $700.
In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
$1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
road bicycle.

At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Sold,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

rdclark said:

Sparky said:

In article <[email hidden]>

SMS<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Sparky wrote:
>> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
>> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
>> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
>> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
>> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
>> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
>> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
> I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
> coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
> usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
> and it's down to $836 versus $700.
> In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
> $1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
> bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
> difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
> road bicycle.
At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Sold,

That was my idea. No rust.

landotter said:

Dennis Ferguson said:

- Fenders fit best on a bike with standard reach calipers if the
brake pads are close to the bottom of the slot. On my Gunnar
they are about half way up, which makes it a bit tight under there.

Dopey! I didn't notice that the last time I checked one out. It's off
my personal wanna list then, unless you can sincerely get a 28mm tire
and a 35mm mudguard in there at the same time.

I usually use Michelin 25mm tires, but Conti 28mm tires from my other
bike (1mm taller) do fit under 35mm SKS mudguards, just barely. I suspect
Planet Bike mudguards might not work since they seem to need a bit more
space under the brakes than SKS.

The extra 3 or 4 mm space you get with other frames certainly makes
everything less fiddly. It might not be necessary to qualify what fits
by brand.

Dennis Ferguson

landotter said:

On Sep 24, 3:09 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Sep 24, 3:04 pm, rdclark <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sep 24, 12:08 am, Sparky <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> In article <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> SMS<[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Sparky wrote:
> >> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
> >> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
> >> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
> >> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
> >> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
> >> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
> >> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
> > I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
> > coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
> > usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
> > and it's down to $836 versus $700.
> > In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
> > $1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
> > bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
> > difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
> > road bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
> rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
> also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

Quoted message said:

ISTM that a CF fork is right up there with low spoke-count wheels on
the list of things you *don't want* on a commuter.

Quoted message said:

(Hey, if you buy a Trek Portland, you can get both stupid things for
one high price.) ;-)

Don't forget the mono [censored] frame!

"Family newsgroup", buddy.......

Ryan Cousineau said:

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Every bike I've ever had has been in more than one crash. The
likelihood of some sort of crash is IMO fairly high, sooner or later,
for a daily urban bike commuter. Since even many CF fork manufacturers
hedge on the subject of whether a CF fork should be replaced after a
crash, this is a degree of uncertainty I'm not willing to accept on a
commuter. I have steel forks on all my bikes. There's no rust. because
the only exposed metal is in places that are greased.

Then there's the whole fender- and rack-mount issue.

r

In article <[email hidden]>,

rdclark said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Every bike I've ever had has been in more than one crash. The
likelihood of some sort of crash is IMO fairly high, sooner or later,
for a daily urban bike commuter. Since even many CF fork manufacturers
hedge on the subject of whether a CF fork should be replaced after a
crash, this is a degree of uncertainty I'm not willing to accept on a
commuter. I have steel forks on all my bikes. There's no rust. because
the only exposed metal is in places that are greased.

Then there's the whole fender- and rack-mount issue.

I have more forks with rust on them than I have forks that I have
crashed. I've had one noteworthy MVA in six years of commuting (not
counting a ludicrous incident in which I did a low-speed berf into the
back of a car, doing no damage to bicycle or car). The one incident
didn't write off the steel fork, though the frame did need realignment.

Of course, I usually get my commuters at garage sales or from other
people's trash piles, so they sometimes come pre-rusted.

Seriously though, I'd say that while there are lots of decent pro/con
arguments to CF forks on commuter bikes, crashing should be a rare
enough event (and at-fault crashing so much more so) that I'm not going
to pick my commuter bike fork for its crashworthiness.

Rust, on the other hand, that I'm sure I'll be dealing with.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

rdclark said:

On Sep 25, 1:13 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

[CF forks]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Quoted message said:

Then there's the whole fender- and rack-mount issue.

Sorry, I should have addressed this in my last post. Aside from the fact
that fender/rack-mounts are hardly excluded by the design of a CF fork,
the sport of cyclocross offers plenty of all-rounder CF forks that have
(removable) canti posts and fender/rack mounts. I did a 5-second search
(googled "carbon touring fork"😉 and found a CF-bodied CX fork with
mid-mounts (!) on eBay.

Here's an assembled tourer with the same features:

http://www.veloeuropa.com/products/framesets/rando_photos.html

As it happens, the Nashbar fork on my Nashbar X-framed CX bike has no
mid-mounts, but does have a disc brake mount. Fender mount? But of
course.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevin said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

rdclark said:

On Sep 24, 12:08 am, Sparky <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>
>
>
>
>
>
> SMS<[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Sparky wrote:
>>> It's not my first road bike. My first one was run over by a pickup
>>> truck when it hit me. I was young and stupid, and riding on the
>>> wrong side of the road. The driver was looking to his left as he
>>> pulled out of a parking lot and made a right turn and ran me down.
>>> Scary, I had to hold onto the bumper and grill as he dragged me and
>>> the bike into the street. Thank goodness lots of people were honking
>>> their horns, as he was an oblivious SOB.
>> I'd wait for an REI sale or coupon. They often send out 20% off
>> coupons for one item, and while it excludes most bicycles, it doesn't
>> usually exclude Novara bicycles. Add that to their 5% Visa rebate,
>> and it's down to $836 versus $700.
>> In any case, you said $1000, so that's why I came up with the best
>> $1000 bicycle I could find. Remember, you're going to have this
>> bicycle a long time (hopefully), so you'll forget about a $200
>> difference soon enough. Run like hell away from any compact frame
>> road bicycle.
> At $836, it's not too bad a deal. It's way over priced at the $1099
> rei wants. The front derailleur is shimano 2200, really low end. It
> also comes with a steel fork, and the schwinn has a carbon fiber.
Do you really want a CF fork on a commuter? On an *all weather*
commuter?

A fork that can't rust on my commuter? On my *all weather* commuter?

Sold,

That was my idea. No rust.

In fairness, now that I've spent a couple of posts rubbishing others for
not liking this, I have to admit that for most commuter bikes, rust on
the fork legs is just not a big deal. The rust on my rusty forks has all
started where the paint was scratched off, or on the 20 year old forks,
maybe near the drain holes and some chrome pitting or similar.

Unless you ride in an especially corrosion-prone area, you probably
shouldn't use that as a consideration. There's about 20 parts on a bike
that are more likely to be damaged by corrosion than the fork.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos