Common Cause - Just zis Website

Alistair J Murray said:

Now that we're all playing nicely...

I was having a look around (Just zis) Guy's website when I read this:

"I do not know whether the experi[e]ments where all road markings and
signage were removed as a traffic calming measure were influenced by
Adams, but it seems to me a good example of how you would apply this
model - by interfering with the perceptual filters (white paint and
road signs) we force the driver to make his own judgements."

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Risk?OpenDocument

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

Yes, far to many people are either unwilling or incapable of thinking. We
all need to be forced to use our brains.

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

depends. Did they have that certain breed of BMW driver in Montana?

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana .....

Coupled with the fact that all the ones without brains to engage quickly
removed themselves from the gene pool ;-)

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

Tony Raven said:

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana .....

Coupled with the fact that all the ones without brains to engage quickly
removed themselves from the gene pool ;-)

That would have been my suspicion too.

Montana experienced an immediate and ongoing reduction in accident and
casualty rates.

No nutter clearing period of carnage, just improved safety.

A

--
Trade Oil in €

Brimstone said:

Alistair J Murray wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

Yes, far to many people are either unwilling or incapable of thinking. We
all need to be forced to use our brains.

Ho yuss... 🙂

*Far* too much "common sense" going down.

A

--
Trade Oil in €

Phil Clarke said:

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

depends. Did they have that certain breed of BMW driver in Montana?

Dunno...

I used to drive a BMW but it had a girly 250km/h limiter so now I drive
an ALPINA.

I'm not a speedophile by either my own definition nor Guy's because;

by Guy's:

I do argue for the abolition of speed limits.

By mine:

I watch the road not the speedo

I confess that my main motivation in campaigning for the removal of
speed limits is not to improve safety. I would rather have unlimited
M-ways even if it meant German levels of casualty.

A

--
Trade Oil in €

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

You have to be very careful how you measure safety. A town can appear
much safer because the roaming gangs have frightened all their
potential victims away...

But I am coming round to the view that less is more in traffic
management, and I would not be averse to trying this, provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it safe to go faster (e.g.
white lines at the margins, deviation markers, warning signs with
acres of yellow Diamond Grade behind them and so on) were removed at
the same time.

And of course provided that the penalty for driving like a [censored] is
made significant.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 25 May 2005 19:09:17 +0100, Alistair J Murray
<[email hidden]> wrote in message <[email hidden]>:

...provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it appear safe to go faster...

I corrected your ommision :-)

Just zis Guy said:

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

You have to be very careful how you measure safety. A town can appear
much safer because the roaming gangs have frightened all their
potential victims away...

But I am coming round to the view that less is more in traffic
management, and I would not be averse to trying this, provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it safe to go faster (e.g.
white lines at the margins, deviation markers, warning signs with
acres of yellow Diamond Grade behind them and so on) were removed at
the same time.

And of course provided that the penalty for driving like a [censored] is
made significant.

I have to disagree.

However if you were to insert "very" between "made" and "significant". I
might be persuaded. However, if you were to suggest that driving like a
[censored] be made a very serious offence and that upon commision (with low
levels of proof) be made jailable you'de have my support all the way.

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

I thought the Montana experience was largely down to:

(a) Very low population density - 2.39 per km2 (243 per km2 in UK).
(b) Very long, straight, wide roads with few junctions (compared to the
UK - bendy, narrow roads with many junctions).

When we have a hundred times the population density and much poorer
roads, I don't see how raising speed limits would improve safety here.

This is pure supposition on my part, but I would wager that you'd meet
less traffic on your average Montana interstate during the rush hour,
than you ever would on the M1, even at 3am.

--
chris

Chris said:

Alistair J Murray said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe we
should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

I thought the Montana experience was largely down to:

(a) Very low population density - 2.39 per km2 (243 per km2 in UK).
(b) Very long, straight, wide roads with few junctions (compared to the
UK - bendy, narrow roads with many junctions).

Another aspect is that while average speeds only rose a few mph the
level of seatbelt wearing increased significantly at the same time. Most
of the benefits seem to be ascribed to seat belt wearing and better lane
discipline on the Interstates. It would be interesting to know whether
there was an Isles Report effect on pedestrian and other deaths.

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

Just zis Guy said:

But I am coming round to the view that less is more in traffic
management, and I would not be averse to trying this, provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it safe to go faster (e.g.
white lines at the margins, deviation markers, warning signs with
acres of yellow Diamond Grade behind them and so on) were removed at
the same time.

I personally find the white lines at the margins to be a Good Thing when
cycling, as they are sight easier to pick out than the interface betwixt
dark road and dark scenery...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Me, I wanna be an anglepoise lamp, yeah!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Should we "force the driver to make his own judgements"?

Might go toward making people responsible for their own actions.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Of course what may have worked in the largely empty state of Montana
(popn two rednecks and a moose called Eric) is also bound to work on
the windy, congested and overburdened roads of the UK.

Dave Larrington said:

I personally find the white lines at the margins to be a Good Thing when
cycling, as they are sight easier to pick out than the interface betwixt
dark road and dark scenery...

Ditto. But they do encourage Captain Cager to pursue his zeal for
speed.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Quoted message said:

Of course what may have worked in the largely empty state of Montana
(popn two rednecks and a moose called Eric)

Montana also has a large amount of traffic transiting on its way East or
West on busy Interstates which also benefited from the safety improvements.

Quoted message said:

is also bound to work on the windy, congested and overburdened roads
of the UK.

I wouldn't go that far, but I think it's worth trying.

A

--
Trade Oil in €

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

But I am coming round to the view that less is more in traffic
management, and I would not be averse to trying this, provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it safe to go faster (e.g.
white lines at the margins, deviation markers, warning signs with
acres of yellow Diamond Grade behind them and so on) were removed at
the same time.

I personally find the white lines at the margins to be a Good Thing when
cycling, as they are sight easier to pick out than the interface betwixt
dark road and dark scenery...

But this illustrates this reason why these lines are counterproductive - if
you can't see the different between dark road and dark scenery, you won't be
able to see the difference between dark scenery and dark
pedestrian/log/stealth-cyclist/whatever - whats more you still won't be able
to make this distinction if white lines are present. The white lines only
serve to generate an illusion that you can see further than you actually
can.

Just zis Guy said:

On Wed, 25 May 2005 19:09:17 +0100, Alistair J Murray
<[email hidden]> wrote in message <[email hidden]>:

[...treating folks like adults...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now this is, I think, one of the mechanisms by which removing speed
limits improved safety in Montana and one of the reasons I believe
we should abolish extra-urban speed limits here.

You have to be very careful how you measure safety. A town can
appear much safer because the roaming gangs have frightened all their
potential victims away...

AFAIK there was no reduction in traffic density, just a reduction in
accidents and casualties.

Quoted message said:

But I am coming round to the view that less is more in traffic
management, and I would not be averse to trying this, provided that
all the other clutter designed to make it safe to go faster (e.g.
white lines at the margins, deviation markers, warning signs with
acres of yellow Diamond Grade behind them and so on) were removed at
the same time.

Montana achieved the improvements without bothering to remove signage or
road markings and in unlit areas reflective road markings have a proven
safety benefit.

I absolutely agree that there is a surfeit of signage and paint in many
urban settings and I believe most here would agree that paint only cycle
lanes are a bad thing.

I admit that my main interest is to make it safer to go faster. If I'm
safer so are those around me.

Quoted message said:

And of course provided that the penalty for driving like a [censored]
is made significant.

It's already potentially death.

A

--
Trade Oil in €

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

[...(no?) white lines...]

Quoted message said:

Ditto. But they do encourage Captain Cager to pursue his zeal for
speed.

So?

A

--
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