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Comments on GPS - First Time Buyer

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
13 June 2004
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13 June 2004
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Colin Brook
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  1. Hello, I've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks
    (months) reviewing these two newsgroups and articles
    referred to in them and, feeling that I'm beginning to go
    round in circles, am finally coming round to wanting to make
    a decision about my first handheld GPS.

    Prompted by many comments, I've identified the prime uses
    that I'll make as these: 1 Walking in the UK (mainly half to
    one day walks in the South) - I'd look to GPS to add
    interest of recording walks, occasionally helping identify
    specific location and generally to help route find with a
    printed map. 2 Ditto in France - several times a year I
    spend a number of days walking in one of two or three areas
    and, occasionally, move into an area unknown to me. Here I'd
    welcome support in helping identify where I really was as
    opposed to where I thought I was ref map - IGN Blue Series
    1:25000 and other points above. 3 Support for long drives,
    mainly through France but occasionally into other European
    countries and sometimes the UK. Help with route following.

    I'm looking at Garmin Etrek Vista or Magellan Meridian
    Gold/Colour or Sportrak Pro. I do have a Palm M515 which I
    could use in the car but don't think I'd want to use it
    when walking.

    Any comments from someone who's recently made this or
    similar decision or from any experienced person about my
    likely satisfaction with one or other of the above would be
    very welcome.

    Regards, Colin

    --
    Colin Brook - Winchester (UK)
    "][email hidden] Fax:+44(0)8701641293
    Mobile:07976258703

  2. Colin Brook said:

    Hello, I've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks
    (months) reviewing these two newsgroups and articles
    referred to in them and, feeling that I'm beginning to go
    round in circles, am finally coming round to wanting to
    make a decision about my first handheld GPS.

    Prompted by many comments, I've identified the prime uses
    that I'll make as these: 1 Walking in the UK (mainly half
    to one day walks in the South) - I'd look to GPS to add
    interest of recording walks, occasionally helping identify
    specific location and generally to help route find with a
    printed map. 2 Ditto in France - several times a year I
    spend a number of days walking in one of two or three
    areas and, occasionally, move into an area unknown to me.
    Here I'd welcome support in helping identify where I
    really was as opposed to where I thought I was ref map -
    IGN Blue Series
    1:25000 and other points above. 3 Support for long drives,
    mainly through France but occasionally into other
    European countries and sometimes the UK. Help with route
    following.

    I'm looking at Garmin Etrek Vista or Magellan Meridian
    Gold/Colour or Sportrak Pro. I do have a Palm M515 which I
    could use in the car but don't think I'd want to use it
    when walking.

    Any comments from someone who's recently made this or
    similar decision or from any experienced person about my
    likely satisfaction with one or other of the above would be
    very welcome.

    Regards, Colin

    I know how it feels, Colin.

    I have the Vista and it is rarely out of my hand when
    walking. I walk Brecons, Lakes, and am in the middle of the
    Cotswold Way for the third time ! Its an ideal unit for a
    walker - but a bit small screen for in the car, and no auto-
    routing. In the car I use it with my laptop, which is
    perfect - your Palm will do the same job.

    Ditto in France. Certainly the IGN maps are very good - you
    know the IGN website, I hope ? www.ign.fr Some areas are
    available at 1:25k on CR-ROM which is very effective.

    Walkers footpath maps are a big issue - there are no maps
    showing footpaths for Garmin/Magellan. I have made my own
    (Garmin only) for areas I am interested in (Brittany, Val
    d'Isere, Mont Ventoux, etc and UK areas)

    There are rumours of OS maps for new Garmin/Magellan gps
    color units, but at what scale & how expensive I don't
    know. I would hold off for one of these if my budget was
    limitless, otherwise go for the Vista and talk to me
    about maps.

    HTH

    Jim Hutton

  3. In a recent message <x0Exc.174$kx4.31@newsfe5-
    gui.server.ntli.net>, Keith Sheppard
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All you need for walking is a non-mapping GPS (maybe
    something relatively cheap and lightweight, like the
    Geko 201).

    Quoted message said:

    I would actually dispute that. I use my GPS almost
    exclusively for walking. When I was first considering the
    purchase I decided that mapping was a bit of a gimmick and
    not really necessary, so long as I had a paper map and knew
    roughly where I was.


    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    So my advice is always go for a mapping GPS if at all
    possible. Plus, of course, if Colin follows my advice he
    becomes a potential new customer for my software 😉


    [...]

    Hello Keith, Colin and All. I'm sure there's merit in what
    you say, but for me my Geko 301 is ideal for the sort of
    walking that I do; like Colin, mainly day walks in the south
    of England. I've also used the Geko when walking in France,
    using scanned maps.

    I now navigate using tracks uploaded to the Geko, using
    lots of track points, which in effect gives me a moving
    map. All there is on the screen is a line, representing
    the track I'm following and the little 'walking person'
    symbol, representing me. If I keep the 'walking person' on
    the line then I'm on track. I pop a waypoint on the track
    every km or so as well, so that I will always know where I
    am. Of course, I'd be the first to admit that using this
    method all one has is the track that one has entered in
    advance and not any alternative paths. However, again for
    me, this disadvantage is outweighed by the small size and
    weight of the Geko, it's perfectly comfortable all day
    hung round my neck in a Aquapac where I can just flip it
    up to see where I am.

    The Geko also records nice tracks that can be plotted after
    the walk using, for example, the excellent MapMan, or using
    GPS Visualizer, see:

    hopton.dsl.pipex.comwatlington.html

    For me the biggest problem is the fact that when it comes
    to footpaths the GPS is often more accurate that OS
    mapping, to the tune of fifty metres and more, sometimes.
    These errors will apply as much to mapping units as to non-
    mapping units. In passing and based on not very extensive
    experience, I'd note that the IGN maps appear to be much
    better in this respect.

    Regards, Nick.
    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
    <[email hidden]

  4. In a recent message
    <[email hidden]>, Jim Hutton
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Certainly the IGN maps are very good - you know the IGN
    website, I hope ? www.ign.fr Some areas are available at
    1:25k on CR-ROM which is very effective.


    [...]

    All of France is available on CD-ROM at 1:25,000, I believe.
    For about GBP 25 you get a huge area, normally representing
    about half a departement. This puts the miserable offerings
    of the OS to shame.

    As Jim says, see ign.frign.fr

    Click on 'Cartes IGN sur CDRoms' and then on 'CD ROM
    CartoExploreur 3'.

    Regards, Nick.

    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
    <[email hidden]

  5. In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Mark South
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All of France is available on CD-ROM at 1:25,000, I
    believe. For about GBP 25 you get a huge area, normally
    representing about half a departement. This puts the
    miserable offerings of the OS to shame.

    And goes some way to making up for the fact that their
    paper maps cost twice as much :-)

    I'm not so sure about that. For example the 1:25,000 IGN
    TOP25 paper map 3443OT of the Aups-Salernes area costs Euro
    9.50. What's that, about GBP
    6.00? The area covered is about the same as that covered by
    the OS Explorer Map 171 and IIRC I paid about GBP 7.00
    for this <g>.

    Regards, Nick.
    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
    <[email hidden]

  6. In a recent message
    <[email hidden]>, Roger
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    While the footpath officer must bear some blame for just
    accepting lines that didn't match paths on the ground the
    principal blame must lie with whoever was behind those
    who carelessly traced the routes in the first place so I
    blame the RA.


    [...]

    Why not, everyone else does <g>. I must say that on no
    evidence whatsoever I've always assumed that the problem was
    one of surveying. I'm sure that surveys done with the latest
    kit are very accurate, but the problem might be that data
    from new surveys has to be fitted onto old surveys carried
    out with old kit. Somewhere, in the OS cartographer's tool
    kit there must be the equivalent of a sledge-hammer for
    forcing new survey data to fit with old data and perhaps
    footpaths get bent in the process.

    Regards, Nick.
    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
    <[email hidden]

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, Colin
    Brook <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I'm looking at Garmin Etrek Vista or Magellan Meridian
    Gold/Colour or Sportrak Pro. I do have a Palm M515 which I
    could use in the car but don't think I'd want to use it
    when walking.

    Any comments from someone who's recently made this or
    similar decision or from any experienced person about my
    likely satisfaction with one or other of the above would be
    very welcome.

    Many thanks for all of the input given here - really helpful
    particularly when combined with the information from the
    very long thread on uk.rec.walking back in August last year
    - GPS Recommendation anyone?. I have decided to focus the
    walking needs and handle GPS support for driving via links
    to my PDA or something else later.

    Regards, Colin
    --
    Colin Brook - Winchester (UK)
    "][email hidden] Tel:+44(0)1962-714030
    Fax:+44(0)8701641293 Mobile:07976258703

  8. In a recent message <[email hidden]>,
    Colin Brook <[email hidden]> wrote.

    Quoted message said:

    Many thanks for all of the input given here - really
    helpful particularly when combined with the information
    from the very long thread on uk.rec.walking back in August
    last year - GPS Recommendation anyone?. I have decided to
    focus the walking needs and handle GPS support for driving
    via links to my PDA or something else later.


    [...]

    I'm sure you won't regret going down this road. Now you'll
    need to ask about route-planning software, which probably
    will start a war <g>.

    Regards, Nick.
    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
    <[email hidden]

  9. Jim Hutton said:

    There are rumours of OS maps for new Garmin/Magellan gps
    color units,

    Not rumours.

    Quoted message said:

    but at what scale

    They're not really at any scale. You're thinking of paper
    maps, with a GPS you can vary the scale. Amount of detail is
    what's important. They're already selling US topo maps at
    1:24,000 scale I think, but that doesn't necessarily mean
    you'd get as much detail as on a paper map of that scale.
    Someone here has seen the OS mapping and it's not as
    detailed as the paper version.

    Quoted message said:

    & how expensive I don't know.

    GPS units are roughly £500-600 I think. And the map CDs will
    cost more as well, at least £100.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  10. Nick

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All you need for walking is a non-mapping GPS (maybe
    something relatively cheap and lightweight, like the
    Geko 201).

    I would actually dispute that. I use my GPS almost
    exclusively for walking. When I was first considering the
    purchase I decided that mapping was a bit of a gimmick and
    not really necessary, so long as I had a paper map and knew
    roughly where I was.

    "'er indoors" (who is totally NON technical) then said
    "what's the point of having one of these darned things if it
    doesn't display maps?" Great! Suddenly I had an endorsement
    for spending even more of the family budget. So I bought an
    eTrex Legend.

    I am so, so glad that my Mrs persuaded me to go for a
    mapping GPS. Apart from providing me with hours of amusement
    producing my own mapping application (MapMan) it is so much
    easier to keep tabs on where you are, and where you ought to
    be heading, if you can see the local topography on your GPS.

    Just take a specific example. We got a bit lost earlier this
    year in Snowdonia. We had just descended a ridge and found
    ourselves on a large and slightly boggy plane with some
    significant lumps dotted around it. I knew there was a
    theoretical footpath (not straight) which took me out the
    way I wanted to go but there was no visible sign of it and I
    was having great difficulty working out which side of the
    various lumps one had to go to avoid dead ends.

    In the end I relied totally on my GPS (having previously
    digitised and uploaded the map including all the footpaths).
    I just kept walking, making sure the arrow always stayed on
    the footpath and sure enough, it eventually led me back to
    the lane I was hoping to find.

    So my advice is always go for a mapping GPS if at all
    possible. Plus, of course, if Colin follows my advice he
    becomes a potential new customer for my software 😉

    Keith

  11. Colin Brook said:

    Many thanks for all of the input given here - really
    helpful particularly when combined with the information
    from the very long thread on uk.rec.walking back in August
    last year - GPS Recommendation anyone?. I have decided to
    focus the walking needs and handle GPS support for driving
    via links to my PDA or something else later.

    I've a Meridian Color and a SporTrak Pro. Hate the size of
    the former, love the size of the latter. Colour is difficult
    to see in sunlight (whereas the B/W STP is v easy) but the
    Color will take SD cards for Routes, Tracks and Basemaps.
    Horses for courses! Now if they did a SporTrak that
    supported memory cards and an external aerial...... . Mark
    Cavendish Cardiff, Wales

  12. "Nick Hopton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In a recent message
    <[email hidden]>, Jim Hutton
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Certainly the IGN maps are very good - you know the IGN
    website, I hope ? www.ign.fr Some areas are available at
    1:25k on CR-ROM which is very effective.


    [...]

    All of France is available on CD-ROM at 1:25,000, I
    believe. For about GBP 25 you get a huge area, normally
    representing about half a departement. This puts the
    miserable offerings of the OS to shame.

    And goes some way to making up for the fact that their paper
    maps cost twice as much :-)
    --
    Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

  13. Paul Saunders said:

    They're not really at any scale. You're thinking of paper
    maps, with a GPS you can vary the scale. Amount of detail
    is what's important.

    Yes, I do know the difference between vector and raster
    maps, but saying 'the amount of detail equivalent to 1:25k
    scale paper map' seemed a bit long-winded.

    Quoted message said:

    Someone here has seen the OS mapping and it's not as
    detailed as the paper version.

    Most important thing in this NG is 'are the footpaths shown'
    ? Does your 'someone' know ?

    Jim H

  14. On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:10:34 +0100,

    Nick Hopton said:

    For me the biggest problem is the fact that when it comes
    to footpaths the GPS is often more accurate that OS
    mapping, to the tune of fifty metres and more, sometimes.
    These errors will apply as much to mapping units as to non-
    mapping units

    Hmm, not true in my limited experience, in fact when I
    overlay my gps tracks on the 1:25k OS maps the fit is
    usually perfect (unless I wandered off.) It's very important
    to distinguish between the dirty great green lines which are
    sometimes wildly wrong, and the nice tiny dotted black lines
    which are the actual footpath.

    Apparently the grisly green lines are some civil servants
    idea of the general line of a right of way, and not intended
    to be accurate. Geez! I just wonder how many not very
    experienced people know that ?

    I once tried walking exactly on the green line (where the
    path goes down from Three Tarns to the Band in the Lake
    District) and it was a distinctly painful experience - not
    remotely on the path and over a small crag at one point.
    Spectators thought I had gone mad. The actual path is NOT
    missable, fortunately.

    Jim Hutton

  15. Jim Hutton said:

    Yes, I do know the difference between vector and raster
    maps, but saying 'the amount of detail equivalent to 1:25k
    scale paper map' seemed a bit long-winded.

    But what I was getting at is that I don't think they have as
    much detail as the scale implies.

    Quoted message said:

    Most important thing in this NG is 'are the footpaths
    shown' ? Does your 'someone' know ?

    As I recall, he said it doesn't even show buildings, so it
    wouldn't surprise me if there are no footpaths either. I'd
    be happy to just to get a few contours, streams and
    indications of cliffs.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  16. Jim Hutton said:

    Most important thing in this NG is 'are the footpaths
    shown' ? Does your 'someone' know ?

    We discussed this topic in the German GPS newsgroups since
    garmin.de released the Garmin TOPO D. You can find a viewer
    for TOPOs on Garmins website. I made a comparison with paper
    topos: <http://mac-im-netz.de/vergleich> - it's in German,
    but you will get the point.

    The answer to 'are the footpaths shown' is NO. All
    topografic details like heights, wood, rivers, creeks are
    very good. Streets also are included but no hiking trails
    and no shelters.

    hth

    Anton

  17. "Jim Hutton" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Someone here has seen the OS mapping and it's not as
    detailed as the paper version.

    Most important thing in this NG is 'are the footpaths
    shown' ? Does your 'someone' know ?

    Jim H

    Yes, I planned a trip using digital OS 1:25k in the LD (from
    multimap.co.uk). Having read about the problems in Lord's
    Rake I asked this ng for an alternative way between Scafell
    Pike and Scafell. They mentioned the Foxes Tarn route but it
    was neither shown nor mentioned in the digital version. Only
    after googling and seeing and reading about this route it
    became clear to me.

    Theo

  18. The message <[email hidden]>
    from Jim Hutton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Apparently the grisly green lines are some civil servants
    idea of the general line of a right of way, and not
    intended to be accurate.

    Civil Servants, like the RA, are always a convenient
    scapegoat but I don't think they played any part whatsoever
    in registering PROWS which, IIRC, was a matter of concerned
    members of the public registering what they thought were
    ROWs with the appropriate Local Government Officer.

    The easiest way to communicate a route would have been to
    trace it directly onto a transparent overlay and if doing it
    in bulk very much the obvious way. The Lake District in
    particular has lots of green lines that just don't follow
    the paths on the ground and in a few cases at least follow
    unlikely routes where someone thought a ROW would be a good
    idea. Given the tradition of open access in the LD
    landowners would not have been too concerned even about the
    inclusion of bogus ROWs on high ground and without objection
    the routes would have stood as registered.

    While the footpath officer must bear some blame for just
    accepting lines that didn't match paths on the ground the
    principal blame must lie with whoever was behind those
    who carelessly traced the routes in the first place so I
    blame the RA.

    I came across a footpath diversion a year or 2 ago on
    Wansfell. AFAICT the diversion was intended to shift the ROW
    back onto the the path it should have followed in the first
    place. It must have been a very expensive way to have
    corrected a mistake that wouldn't have taken a minute to
    have prevented had the guilty parties been careful in the
    first place.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
    Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  19. Paul Saunders said:
    Quoted message said:

    Most important thing in this NG is 'are the footpaths
    shown' ? Does your 'someone' know ?

    As I recall, he said it doesn't even show buildings, so it
    wouldn't surprise me if there are no footpaths either. I'd
    be happy to just to get a few contours, streams and
    indications of cliffs.

    No, there are no buildings (unless you count POIs, but
    they're rather limited .. campsites etc.). Nothing useful
    like a Church spire. The reason given for this is that the
    screen is too small to handle the clutter (but if they were
    done as POIs they could be disabled as neeeded ..).

    There ARE footpaths (unlike the German Garmin maps another
    poster has seen). However, they're patchy : in some places
    excellent and very accurate, in some places there are big
    gaps, with short sections of footpath isolated in the middle
    of nowhere. There are two grades of non-roads : paths (a
    single dotted line that looks inconveniently like a
    tracklog) and tracks (double dotted line implying a route
    passable by tractors). Neither, however, is necessarily a
    right of way (and the manual makes a point of stating that
    ROW are not indicated). Paths appear never to be named (even
    if they're national routes).

    Small streets are are sometimes not shown, even though they
    appeared in the older, cheaper, larger coverage 'streets
    Europe' software. This can be very annoying when a short
    country lane links to a footpath, as the lane is not shown
    at any zoom level and the footpath or tracks appears to end
    short of a main road.

    There are plenty of contours. However, I understand that
    they're plotted on the fly from a database with a fixed
    horizontal resolution. This has some conveniences, but it's
    not good at showing areas of high slope. I'm not sure what
    the horizontal resolution is, but the US topo maps are said
    to be 90m so it could be pretty poor. The contours shown
    can be much more closely spaced than this (4m at best)
    which could imply they're largely fictitious. This needs
    testing, but the region I'm in (East Anglia) doesn't lend
    itself to the job.

    There are no feature marks for cliffs, so with the limited
    contour resolution I most certainly wouldn't use it alone to
    find a route down in fog ..

    Some summits are labelled, but not at all accurately. The
    label often appears on a nearby slope rather than adjacent
    to a spot height indicator.

    Water is shown very well - at least as well, if not better
    than footpaths. An irritation is that detailed water appears
    at the least-zoomed level of detail maps, whereas some roads
    (including most unclassified country roads) appear at a more
    detailed level. This means that at some zoom levels, you can
    see drainage ditches but not roads!

    I would say that it's marginally useful at present, but with
    some small changes (more sensible water detail levels, road
    detail taken from 'streets Europe' maps, addition of some
    useful POIs, correction of summit labels, naming of some
    recognised national paths) it could be quite decent.

    It could really do with facilities for OS grid references
    too, but I would imagine that's a rather drastic change
    for the PC software : not much chance of it. It's a pity
    the GPS manufacturers are such a closed shop - if someone
    like Anquet did the PC software and left the GPS
    manufacturer to concentrate on the embedded software we'd
    get much better products.

    However, there's been a further development : the UK
    distributor is apparently very unhappy with the quality and
    has persuaded Magellan to withdraw the product. I would hope
    that they're aiming to re-release it, but I have no idea
    when or with what changes. I'm impressed that they feel it
    should be withdrawn (money back offered) rather than just
    left hanging for another release, though. It's a bit of a
    novelty in the software world !

    -adrian

  20. "Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The message
    <[email hidden]> from Jim
    Hutton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Apparently the grisly green lines are some civil
    servants idea of the general line of a right of way, and
    not intended to be accurate.

    Civil Servants, like the RA, are always a convenient
    scapegoat but I don't think they played any part
    whatsoever in registering PROWS which, IIRC, was a matter
    of concerned members of the public registering what they
    thought were ROWs with the appropriate Local Government
    Officer.

    The easiest way to communicate a route would have been to
    trace it directly onto a transparent overlay and if doing
    it in bulk very much the obvious way. The Lake District in
    particular has lots of green lines that just don't follow
    the paths on the ground and in a few cases at least follow
    unlikely routes where someone thought a ROW would be a
    good idea. Given the tradition of open access in the LD
    landowners would not have been too concerned even about
    the inclusion of bogus ROWs on high ground and without
    objection the routes would have stood as registered.

    While the footpath officer must bear some blame for just
    accepting lines that didn't match paths on the ground the
    principal blame must lie with whoever was behind those
    who carelessly traced the routes in the first place so I
    blame the RA.

    I came across a footpath diversion a year or 2 ago on
    Wansfell. AFAICT the diversion was intended to shift the
    ROW back onto the the path it should have followed in the
    first place. It must have been a very expensive way to
    have corrected a mistake that wouldn't have taken a minute
    to have prevented had the guilty parties been careful in
    the first place.

    Reading what you wrote, Roger, I could not help but recall
    the drawing-the-irish-border scene from Puckoon.
    --
    For those who have trouble distinguishing, cynicsm, sarcasm,
    humour etc, try mentally inserting smilies thoughout my post
    until it either matches what you'd like to read, or what
    you'd expect me to write.
    - Jon Senior in uk.rec.cycling

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