Collision....driver didn't stop...advice?

Jon Rogers wrote on 10/09/2006 21:23 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly
decided to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in
sharply whilst braking, and I ran into the back of him, despite
braking hard myself. I somehow managed to unclip and remain upright,
and expected the driver to pull over and get out.

He sped off. I got his number (I hope I remembered it correctly as I
nothing to write it down on). As the front wheel was still round,
and seemed to rotate, I made off after him.

I'm 48, and somewhat overweight, and he was going up-hill, so I
almost gave up when I noticed him turning into a side road.
Reasoning that he might live there, I followed. It was a cul-de-sac,
and he was just finishing a 3 point turn when I caught up. I suspect
he was un-familiar with the area, and was trying to make his escape.

Position myself in the middle of the road, opposite a parked car made
him stop.

I informed him that he had just failed to stop at the scene of an
accident, and as such had committed an offence.

"I didn't see you signalling" he blurted out. I explained that I
wasn't turning off the main road, and therefore wouldn't be
signalling.

"Anyway, there was no damage to the car, so I didn't bother
stopping". Quite how he made this assessment without getting out and
looking I don't know. Anyway, there was a very nice mark on his
bumper.

"Is your bike damaged?" he asked. I informed him that I would have
to check, and be let him know, he began to move off, so rather than
face injury I let him go.

No witnesses unfortunately.

Having got home, I can see that the forks are bent back, and the
front wheel is now about three quarters of an inch behind where it
should be. Also, the lower aheadset bearing is oozing grease all over
the fork crown.

This is a Thorn machine, so is probably repairable (assuming the
frame is still OK), but I reckon on about 150 gbp of bills, if I do
the work myself.

I've tried to report it to the Police, who were less than interested,
but finally gave me an incident number, and a form (WT898) to fill
in.

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

With no witnesses it may be difficult. Make sure you make a statement
to the police so there is a contemporaneous record. Get a bike shop to
assess the damage and cost of repairs and then write to the driver
claiming the cost of repairs. When he or his insurance company wriggle,
start a Small Claims Court claim, which you can do online.

If you don't have his address - he should have given it to you - push
the police.

You are probably going to have to work for this one. Unfortunately the
CTC will not help, beyond some brief on the phone advice, because there
was no injury and it is does not have issues of important principles.

Good luck

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Jon Rogers said:

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

Throw the f*&king book at him.

Good Luck!

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"I suppose they are vicious rascals, but it scarcely matters what they
are. I'm after what they know." (Gibson-Sterling, The Difference Engine)

Obviously it's pretty digraceful ( for several reasons) what this bloke did
today.
Unfortunately I can't improve on what Tony Raven just said.
Except that you shouldn't be daunted by the small claims procedure, it
really is fairly easy, just as long as you are organised. Any problems,
(like form fillng) you can also call into your local Court Office. In my
experience they are usually helpful.

John Clayton
www.calder-clarion.co.uk

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With no witnesses it may be difficult. Make sure you make a statement to
the police so there is a contemporaneous record. Get a bike shop to
assess the damage and cost of repairs and then write to the driver
claiming the cost of repairs. When he or his insurance company wriggle,
start a Small Claims Court claim, which you can do online.

If you don't have his address - he should have given it to you - push the
police.

You are probably going to have to work for this one. Unfortunately the
CTC will not help, beyond some brief on the phone advice, because there
was no injury and it is does not have issues of important principles.

Good luck

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

"Don Whybrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Rogers said:

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

Throw the f*&king book at him.

Easier said then done unless you mean it literally and the OP has the Kama
Sutra to hand......

Police and solicitors show little interest in RTAs unless personal injury
has taken place.

"vernon levy" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

"Don Whybrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Rogers said:

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

Throw the f*&king book at him.

Easier said then done unless you mean it literally and the OP has the Kama
Sutra to hand......

Quoted message said:

Police and solicitors show little interest in RTAs unless personal injury
has taken place.

I feel the OP should get his bike professionally assessed. Methinks the
damage comes to several hundred pounds.

I'm surprised that Tony has not found the CTC helpful in this sort of
case. :-(

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Tony Raven said:

If you don't have his address - he should have given it to you - push
the police.

Or you can request this via the dvla, search google for "form V888"

Steve

"Jon Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly decided
to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in sharply whilst
braking, and I ran into the back of him,

Your fault.

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his fault.
But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding too close to
him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one of
those cases)

Practise defensive cycling. Even when a situation IS the other parties
fault, surely you would still want to avoid injury, inconvenience, stress
and expense?

ian henden said:

"Jon Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly decided
to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in sharply whilst
braking, and I ran into the back of him,

Your fault.

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his fault.
But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding too close to
him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one of
those cases)

Practise defensive cycling. Even when a situation IS the other parties
fault, surely you would still want to avoid injury, inconvenience, stress
and expense?

Of course you're wrong here Ian, because the car cut in to turn left
whilst braking. It's not as though he was following the car.

ian henden said:

"Jon Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly
decided to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in
sharply whilst braking, and I ran into the back of him,

Your fault.

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his
fault. But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding
too close to him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one
of those cases)

How about the case where a car pulls in front and brakes immediately after
overtaking? ...Which is about what Jon said happened.

Quoted message said:

Practise defensive cycling. Even when a situation IS the other
parties fault, surely you would still want to avoid injury,
inconvenience, stress and expense?

You mean brake hard everytime a vehicle overtakes just in case it's gonna
cut you up?

I'm a fan of defensive cycling but there's only so much it can do for you.

~PB

ian henden wrote on 11/09/2006 08:10 +0100:

Quoted message said:

"Jon Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly decided
to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in sharply whilst
braking, and I ran into the back of him,

Your fault.

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his fault.
But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding too close to
him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one of
those cases)

Disagree. If I pulled in sharply in front of your moving bus leaving no
gap and then slammed the anchors on you would have no choice but to hit
me. Would you still think it was your fault? If the driver had pulled
in a braked leaving sufficient room between him and Jon for Jon to be
able to stop it would have been different but he didn't.

Its a bit like pedestrians. If one is walking across the road and you
hit them its your fault. If one steps out right in front of you it
would be their fault.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 11/09/2006 00:23 +0100:

Quoted message said:

I'm surprised that Tony has not found the CTC helpful in this sort of
case. :-(

They were helpful but the legal helpline said they could only take on
the case if it involved personal injury or important issues (which I can
understand). They gave me a few pointers but I had to run it myself
through the Small Claims Court (where I won - or rather the insurance
company - Nissan Insurance - settled after months of giving me the run
around to put me off). Their solicitor even told me I would lose and
have to pay all their costs at which I laughed and suggested they needed
to go back to law school to learn the basics of litigation in the Small
Claims Court.

Just in case you missed it that's NISSAN INSURANCE, the insurance
offered by Nissan Cars that Nissan Cars denies any responsibility for.
http://www.nissan.co.uk/home/services/Insurance/6251e0668b0f4010VgnVCM100000c4300a0aRCRD.html

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

in message <[email hidden]>, vernon levy

(') said:

"Don Whybrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Rogers said:

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

Throw the f*&king book at him.

Easier said then done unless you mean it literally and the OP has the
Kama Sutra to hand......

Police and solicitors show little interest in RTAs unless personal injury
has taken place.

But, providing you have his number accurately, you can bring a civil action
for damages, and the CTC should help you do so. If you've bent the forks,
then at a minimum I would send the frame back to Thorn for checking -
impacts which bend forks often cause damage to the junction between the
head and the down tubes.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:02:16 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 11/09/2006 00:23 +0100:

Quoted message said:

I'm surprised that Tony has not found the CTC helpful in this sort of
case. :-(

They were helpful but the legal helpline said they could only take on
the case if it involved personal injury or important issues (which I can
understand). They gave me a few pointers but I had to run it myself
through the Small Claims Court (where I won - or rather the insurance
company - Nissan Insurance - settled after months of giving me the run
around to put me off). Their solicitor even told me I would lose and
have to pay all their costs at which I laughed and suggested they needed
to go back to law school to learn the basics of litigation in the Small
Claims Court.

If you are going down the SCC route then first write a letter to the
driver asking him to pay the bill. Give him 1-2 weeks to pay,
depending on the amount. Then write him another letter with the title
"Letter before action". Tell him you will take the case to the SCC if
he does not pay. Again give him 1 week to pay. If this fails then
start the court action. You can do this via your local county court
or even file a claim online. Make sure all your letters are sent
recorded delivery.

You may need to prove that you tried other avenues before going to
court, hence the letters.

Maybe your local CAB also could help here?

I hope this helps.

Mark

In article said:

Quoted message said:

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly decided
to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in sharply whilst
braking, and I ran into the back of him,

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his fault.
But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding too close to
him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one of
those cases)

So what do you think those limited cases are, if they don't include being
too close _because the car has just pulled sharply left in front of him_?

In article <[email hidden]>

Jon Rogers said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

Always have an injury in this sort of situation, even if it's minor and
clears up in a few days, because accidents involving personal injury
must be reported to the police. I expect you twisted your knee getting
unclipped, didn't you? That's the sort of thing that often only becomes
apparent the next day.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Having got home, I can see that the forks are bent back, and the front
wheel is now about three quarters of an inch behind where it should be.
Also, the lower aheadset bearing is oozing grease all over the fork
crown.

This is a Thorn machine, so is probably repairable (assuming the frame
is still OK), but I reckon on about 150 gbp of bills, if I do the work
myself.

Check carefully that there isn't a slight ripple under the downtube just
behind the head tube, which would indicate that your steering geometry
has been modified.
You might find you can pull the fork straight - I've done it on cheap
bikes by tying the back hub to a gatepost, the front hub to the front of
my car and reversing carefully :-)

Quoted message said:

I've tried to report it to the Police, who were less than interested, but
finally gave me an incident number, and a form (WT898) to fill in.

I'm a CTC member, so I'll give them a call in the morning, but does
anyone have any advise as to what I should do next?

Whatever you decide to do I hope you manage to nail the [censored].

2-wheels-good wrote on 11/09/2006 12:57 +0100:

Quoted message said:

You might find you can pull the fork straight - I've done it on cheap
bikes by tying the back hub to a gatepost, the front hub to the front of
my car and reversing carefully :-)

That sounds like a good recipe to bend all sorts of other parts of the
frame as well as the fork.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

In article <[email hidden]>

Tony Raven said:

2-wheels-good wrote on 11/09/2006 12:57 +0100:

Quoted message said:

You might find you can pull the fork straight - I've done it on cheap
bikes by tying the back hub to a gatepost, the front hub to the front of
my car and reversing carefully :-)

That sounds like a good recipe to bend all sorts of other parts of the
frame as well as the fork.

It does, you might expect at least the rear axle to bend, but I didn't
have a problem with gaspipe Raleighs and the like - a decent frame may
present somewhat more of a challenge. The reason it's a good technique
is that the straightening force is pretty much the opposite of the
original bending force, with the forks supported in the same place, and
it requires no disassembly. The reason it's a bad technique is that you
could end up damaging components that were untouched by the original
crash.
If the OP successfully recovers his losses from the [censored] in a metal box
then he should definitely have the bike stripped by a bike shop and
checked by a framebuilder, or write the bike off and get a new one, but
if it's too much hassle and he wants a quick fix then this is one
possibility, expecially if the alternative is to replace the frame and
forks at his own cost.

"LSMike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ian henden said:

"Jon Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Firstly, no injuries, which is the main thing of course.

However, I collided with a car this morning, after it suddenly decided
to turn left whilst passing me to my right. He pulled in sharply
whilst
braking, and I ran into the back of him,

Your fault.

If you had run in to the *side* of him, it would have mostly been his
fault.
But running into the *back* of him shows that you were riding too close
to
him, at a speed at which you were unable to stop.
(There are limited cases where this would not apply, this is not one of
those cases)

Practise defensive cycling. Even when a situation IS the other parties
fault, surely you would still want to avoid injury, inconvenience, stress
and expense?

Of course you're wrong here Ian, because the car cut in to turn left
whilst braking. It's not as though he was following the car.

Ummmm.... he ran into the BACK of the car....

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

Quoted message said:

With no witnesses it may be difficult. Make sure you make a statement
to the police so there is a contemporaneous record. Get a bike shop to
assess the damage and cost of repairs and then write to the driver
claiming the cost of repairs. When he or his insurance company wriggle,
start a Small Claims Court claim, which you can do online.

If you don't have his address - he should have given it to you - push
the police.

You are probably going to have to work for this one. Unfortunately the
CTC will not help, beyond some brief on the phone advice, because there
was no injury and it is does not have issues of important principles.

Good luck

Thanks Tony, and everyone else who offered helpful advice.

Progress today has been:

1) The Police are being worse than useless...2 forces involved (Staffs
where the accident happened, and West Mids where I live) neither of
which wants to take the details. What irks me is the fact that an
offence has been committed (i.e. failing to stop and provide details),
and I am in possession of the info they require to prosecute the
offender. Seems it's too much trouble. I won't be letting it drop I'm
afraid.

2) Thanks to Steve about the DVLA tip. I have at least ascertained that
I did get the guy's number plate right. It also seems that for two and a
half quid, they'll tell me who he is, as long as I have a valid reason
for asking. I still think plod should do this bit, but if they don't,
its another avenue.

3) CTC were sort of helpful, advising me to check my household insurance,
and promising to send me a pack with Small Claims Court advice within.
Unless I can get the guy's name and address though, it won't help much.

4) I have contacted St John St Cycles (who made the bike) and they will
examine it and provide an estimate for the repair. I'm keen on this
because although the frame looks OK, I'd rather have the fact confirmed
by them. AS luck would have it I have a business trip next week that
will take me past Bridgewater, so I can take a short detour.

Thanks again to everyone. Will post progress from time to time.

--
Jon
____________________________________________
jondotrogersatntlworlddotcom
============================================