Coldness, Yaktrax Review

SwStudio said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too. Sustained and bitter. The actual air temp was
-19C (-3F), so you know it was a strong wind. I think a lot of us
in the NE of North America got hit bad.

Needless to say I found it hard to race, or even breathe for that

Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Quoted message said:

matter. It was probably one of the coldest races I've ever endured.
My feet never get cold, but this time my toes were numb the whole
way through.

Skin will begin to freeze at 24F (skin temp is 24F).
There are several degrees of frostbite: numbness is
soft frostbite, not severe but on the way to harder
frostbite and possible tissue damage. The fact that
your toes got to the point of numbness means they
were in fact quite cold.

Frostbite risk increases if you're dehydrated or
wearing tight fitting shoes/clothes. being wet makes
it even worse.

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Who was the sponsor of this race David and how many people turned out
for the event? You also did not mention the distance. Can't speak
for Canada but most U.S. running organizatons would cancel an event if
it was -23F w/the WindChill I would think.

Don't they have some sort/form of weather alerts wherein regional
Government officials advise against being outdoors for any reason?

Race waivers don't free liability for RDs here (and I doubt in Canada).
A Lightning storm alert in the area would force an RD to cancel a
race. As would 105 weather with humidity making what we call the
"heat index" feel like 115F or so.

Who was the sponsor & how many turned out? Is this typical in your
area?...holding running events in such conditions?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Interesting. And curious. Why is it that cross country skiers are not
susceptible to this effect?

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too. Sustained and bitter. The actual air temp was
-19C (-3F), so you know it was a strong wind. I think a lot of us
in the NE of North America got hit bad.

Needless to say I found it hard to race, or even breathe for that

Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Quoted message said:

matter. It was probably one of the coldest races I've ever endured.
My feet never get cold, but this time my toes were numb the whole
way through.

Skin will begin to freeze at 24F (skin temp is 24F).
There are several degrees of frostbite: numbness is
soft frostbite, not severe but on the way to harder
frostbite and possible tissue damage. The fact that
your toes got to the point of numbness means they
were in fact quite cold.

Frostbite risk increases if you're dehydrated or
wearing tight fitting shoes/clothes. being wet makes
it even worse.

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

John Galt said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Interesting. And curious. Why is it that cross country skiers are not
susceptible to this effect?

Of course -3 isn't that cold, but the -20 wind
chill may still be a factor. Extreme cold can
affect breathing (sort of cold induced asthma)
but I can't recall ever breathing as rapidly
skiing as I do when running, and it has to do
with rapid breathing at very low temperatures.

Course I'm just conjecturing. It's avoided by
wearing a face mask so you both rebreath and
warm the air.

Quoted message said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too. Sustained and bitter. The actual air temp was
-19C (-3F), so you know it was a strong wind. I think a lot of us
in the NE of North America got hit bad.

Needless to say I found it hard to race, or even breathe for that

Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Quoted message said:

matter. It was probably one of the coldest races I've ever endured.
My feet never get cold, but this time my toes were numb the whole
way through.

Skin will begin to freeze at 24F (skin temp is 24F).
There are several degrees of frostbite: numbness is
soft frostbite, not severe but on the way to harder
frostbite and possible tissue damage. The fact that
your toes got to the point of numbness means they
were in fact quite cold.

Frostbite risk increases if you're dehydrated or
wearing tight fitting shoes/clothes. being wet makes
it even worse.

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

SwStudio said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too. Sustained and bitter. The actual air temp was
-19C (-3F), so you know it was a strong wind. I think a lot of us
in the NE of North America got hit bad.

And the rest of us are jealous 🙁 We're praying for snow, and it got
misdirected some place where people don't appreciate it 😉

Quoted message said:

Needless to say I found it hard to race, or even breathe for that
matter.

Did you use a balaclava or scarf or some face cover? About 0F/-18C is
when I start considering using mine, although it varies.

It was probably one of the coldest races I've ever endured.

Quoted message said:

My feet never get cold, but this time my toes were numb the whole
way through.

Do you have fairly open mesh shoe that the wind can play in - hence cold
toes? Also, the yaktrax can restrict circulation. I know there's been
cases of frostbite using things with bindings in the old Iditarun -
apparently without symptoms - or perhaps ignored symptoms (Eric Clifton
and one other racer in the story I was reading).

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

I'm surprised they weren't a pain on pavement. I've found them ok for
hardpacked snow for running, but no grip on icy hills - lots of slippage
on 10-15% slope a couple weeks ago. I'll walk in them on ice, but use
ice joggers (sharp points) when I need traction on ice like we've had.

Congratulations for surviving your race!

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

Coulda used a set of those in a race a few years ago. Half marathon,
about this time of year, the morning after about a 6-inch snowfall,
mostly rural unplowed roads. There were some tire ruts in the snow, so
we had our choice of the fresh snow that slowed us down, or the packed
snow that we might slide on. I was told that the women's winner fell
down at least once.

It was cold, too, but not as cold as you had to deal with.

--
Brian P. Baresch
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too. Sustained and bitter. The actual air temp was
-19C (-3F), so you know it was a strong wind. I think a lot of us
in the NE of North America got hit bad.

And the rest of us are jealous 🙁 We're praying for snow, and it got
misdirected some place where people don't appreciate it 😉

Well I don't know if Boston and Philadelphia appreciate snow,
but they both got around 3x the snow that Hamilton got, so it
wasn't that bad for us on that front.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Needless to say I found it hard to race, or even breathe for that
matter.

Did you use a balaclava or scarf or some face cover? About 0F/-18C is when
I start considering using mine, although it varies.

Yes, I have a nice MEC one made of technical fibre. It's just
a simple triangle of material with a velcro square at back. It
works great, but near the end of the race when I pull it down
to my neck (stop breathing through it) it gets rock hard within
a minute.

Quoted message said:

It was probably one of the coldest races I've ever endured.

Quoted message said:

My feet never get cold, but this time my toes were numb the whole
way through.

Do you have fairly open mesh shoe that the wind can play in - hence cold
toes? Also, the yaktrax can restrict circulation. I know there's been
cases of frostbite using things with bindings in the old Iditarun -
apparently without symptoms - or perhaps ignored symptoms (Eric Clifton
and one other racer in the story I was reading).

Yeah, I wore my heaviest shoes, which are lightweight trainers at
best. Maybe 8oz. They have thin mesh as covering. The Yaktrax
certainly did bite a little and speed up the numbing process. I think
think this is probably okay for short periods of time, maybe half an
hour to 45 minutes at most.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

I'm surprised they weren't a pain on pavement. I've found them ok for
hardpacked snow for running, but no grip on icy hills - lots of slippage
on 10-15% slope a couple weeks ago. I'll walk in them on ice, but use
ice joggers (sharp points) when I need traction on ice like we've had.

They were a little bit of an issue of the pavement, but there was
simply not enough bare pavement to make it unbearable, or even
close to. I think they are at their best in slippery, hard-packed snow
in which feet don't sink at all.

Quoted message said:

Congratulations for surviving your race!

Thanks! I ran very slowly anyway, everyone did.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

John Galt said:

Quoted message said:

>Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Interesting. And curious. Why is it that cross country skiers are not
susceptible to this effect?

Of course -3 isn't that cold, but the -20 wind
chill may still be a factor. Extreme cold can
affect breathing (sort of cold induced asthma)
but I can't recall ever breathing as rapidly
skiing as I do when running, and it has to do
with rapid breathing at very low temperatures.

Course I'm just conjecturing. It's avoided by
wearing a face mask so you both rebreath and
warm the air.

I have breathing problems in low temps if I'm running. It's like
watery phlegm is building up very quickly in my throat which is
too hard to clear. It feels like I am suffocating.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Hey David....I asked you a couple of questions. Are you boycotting me
or something? I was really interested in your post and asked what I
thought were reasonable questions...no?
Thanks in advance for your reply!

Quoted message said:

I have breathing problems in low temps if I'm running. It's like
watery phlegm is building up very quickly in my throat which is
too hard to clear. It feels like I am suffocating.

You probably already know this, but:
the cold weather makes your nose run, instead of
running out, yours is "running back". Your nose is
draining into your throat. If "gacking" does not get
it out, try blowin your nose often during the run to
get the drainage to come out the front.

I have the same problem but can generally just hack it
up.

Good luck.

SwStudio said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

John Galt said:

>>Sounds like pulmonary chilling. Not good...

Interesting. And curious. Why is it that cross country skiers are not
susceptible to this effect?

Of course -3 isn't that cold, but the -20 wind
chill may still be a factor. Extreme cold can
affect breathing (sort of cold induced asthma)
but I can't recall ever breathing as rapidly
skiing as I do when running, and it has to do
with rapid breathing at very low temperatures.

Course I'm just conjecturing. It's avoided by
wearing a face mask so you both rebreath and
warm the air.

I have breathing problems in low temps if I'm running. It's like
watery phlegm is building up very quickly in my throat which is
too hard to clear. It feels like I am suffocating.

I don't have any reference to that as any sort of
symptom. Are you saying you wore a scarf or mask?
Does it come from the lungs or the nose/mouth?

I tend to have a lot of drainage when it's colder,
forcing me to constantly clear my throat as I run.
But it usually clears up after a couple/few miles.
I don't get the same when it's warm, so I just
ascribe it to having a runny runner's nose, like
when your nose runs when it's cold outside. Possibly
there's just a lot more moisture condensation when
breathing so rapidly at colder temps.

If it's really cold I sometimes get some fluid/phlegm
in my lower airway causing me to wheeze. But never
enough to impede breathing.

SwStudio said:

Yes, I have a nice MEC one made of technical fibre. It's just
a simple triangle of material with a velcro square at back. It
works great, but near the end of the race when I pull it down
to my neck (stop breathing through it) it gets rock hard within
a minute.

All balaclavas will eventually begin to freeze while you´re still
wearing one, which isn´t any less uncomfortable.

If you regularly have to run in cold temperatures, it´s IMHO worth
trying on a face mask with a kind of airwarming filter (such as can be
seen at http://www.psolar.com ). You may well find that you cannot bear
to run wearing one or that your asthma-related problems cannot really
be overcome in this manner.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

Do you actually prefer them to studded shoes - or is it that you
haven´t yet tried the latter?

FWIW here the "I´ll-never-be-in-that-class" runners who have to run on
snow/ice invariably have their shoes studded and I`ve never heard or
read any unfavorable comments.

(BTW I did marvel at a race course which could offer "wet pavement" in
-19°C, but presumably there are city blocks with heated pavements in
Hamilton, too.)

Anders

SwStudio said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

SwStudio wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

I'm surprised they weren't a pain on pavement. I've found them ok for
hardpacked snow for running, but no grip on icy hills - lots of slippage
on 10-15% slope a couple weeks ago. I'll walk in them on ice, but use
ice joggers (sharp points) when I need traction on ice like we've had.

They were a little bit of an issue of the pavement, but there was
simply not enough bare pavement to make it unbearable, or even
close to. I think they are at their best in slippery, hard-packed snow
in which feet don't sink at all.

This is just meant as a comparison for those that might be considering
them. For me, the pro version seems to be tighter - snugger fit on shoe
- hence more likely to crunch foot. The coils are also larger than the
original version. While I like the strap on the pro version to keep them
from coming off, I think I prefer the original on the harder packed
snow. Because of the lugs on my trailshoes combined with the coils, it
makes a really lumpy ride unless the snow is soft enough for coil to
grap a little - but that's me. With more softer snow, I prefer the pro
since it can dig into the hills better.

I think I've worn mine for close to 2 hr, but I can see as the shoe gets
wet, it's more vulnerable to scrunching.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

anders said:

SwStudio said:

Quoted message said:

>I wore the 'Yaktrax Pro' traction devices, since the surface I was
>running on was 80% hardpacked snow, 10% sheet ice, and 10%
>wet pavement. They worked very well on all surfaces, even the wet
>pavement. I give them two thumbs up for use under even hard racing
>conditions at or below 6:00 miles.

Do you actually prefer them to studded shoes - or is it that you
haven´t yet tried the latter?

Our running store in town is apparently selling the icebug shoes now,
and I've seen tracks (or at least what I think is their tracks) of them
on trails. Judging from lack of skid marks (where moose were slipping on
ice), they seemed to hold fairly well on some slight-snow-on-top-of-ice
hills. I wasn't wearing any traction devices that day, but inched my way
down edge of trail hanging onto trees on the icy sections. There were
places were I couldn't see where they went, so maybe they were making
some side excursions also.

I've had enough shoe issues with my feet, that I doubt that I'd try them
- at least in the near future. I also like the convenience of being able
to take off traction devices when not needed. But they do look quite
effective.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

Quoted message said:

Hey David....I asked you a couple of questions. Are you boycotting

me

Quoted message said:

or something?

Well, I don´t find it inconceivable:-)

Quoted message said:

I was really interested in your post and asked what I thought were
reasonable questions...no?
Thanks in advance for your reply!

My two cents (just in case he has effectively killfiled you):

It was a 8K race in -19°C. For comparison, in XC skiing a "Popular
Cross-Country Competition" (in which distances can vary between 30-90K)
doesn´t have to be cancelled unless "a major portion of the course" is
colder than -25°C. If the temperature is below -15°C at any point of
the course, "recommendations regarding cold weather protection should
be made available to the participants. Under such conditions it is the
*reponsibility of the participants* (my italics) to seek the
information and to follow the recommendations given by the organiser".

The temperatures referred to above are the ones that can be read from a
thermometer, not the ones from a wind chill factor chart:-)

(However, the temperature limits in elite races, such as World Cup
events, are lower: at -20°C all races must be cancelled and 30-50K
races can be cancelled at -17°C.)

(BTW I recognize that iability issues probably look different in the
U.S....)

Anders

Dot said:

Our running store in town is apparently selling the icebug shoes now,

Quoted message said:

and I've seen tracks (or at least what I think is their tracks) of

them

Quoted message said:

on trails. Judging from lack of skid marks (where moose were slipping

on

Quoted message said:

ice), they seemed to hold fairly well on some

slight-snow-on-top-of-ice

Quoted message said:

hills.

They *are* effective, both in keeping you from skidding/falling and in
allowing you to maintain a normal, relaxed stride. For the better,
large mileage runners the latter is especially important.

But even though the Icebug is AFAIK originally a Finnish shoe and there
is another Finnish brand, VJ Sarva, and both are popular with
theorienteers (who wear a similar type throught the rest of the year,
too), the runners prefer to have a pair of their usual shoes studded.

If the tread pattern isn´t too fine, i.e. there´ll be enough material
around each stud, almost any kind of shoe will do, but usually a bit
heavier shoe, possibly with some stability features, is chosen. (NB
854, for instance.)

The studs are the same as used for bicycle tyres and there´ll be
plenty of them - in comparison to the studded model Asics is selling
here.

When the job is done by a specialist store, the cost here is about
€20, and a pair off the shelf (typically, a last year´s model on
which the stocks are high) comes at €100-120.

Anders

Quoted message said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was

a 'real' windchill, too.
______________

hey anders, how goes it. you're referrng to a race you were in
right?....and not david's?
because david's was colder.

gee, why would anyone KF me? My ex-wfie even adores me (of course has
a brand new house and no mortage...perhaps that's one reason why LOL!).
I've been reading up on extreme cold weather racing and learning of
records, etc. In fact I emailed a running club in Minneapolis to ask
them if they hold events in this weather. Anyone...could soemone do
me a favor and ask david in ontario if he would be so kind to kind of
"fill out his race report" just a bit.

he said he raced on saturday in this -23F. i simply was curious as to
the distance the race was, approx how many people actually showed
up....and i was wondering who the sponsor was of the race. and RD
holding a race in -23F for people...is...well...that's having "balls".
this would absolutely be cancelled in nyc for liability reasons of
having humans exposed, etc. i was wondering if this sponsor of this
race does this routinely (holds events in this extreme weather).

if someone could be so kind as to get david to kind of fll in these
gaps, that would be great! thanks!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The windchill at a race I ran this morning was -30C (-23F). It was
a 'real' windchill, too.

Quoted message said:

hey anders, how goes it. you're referrng to a race you were in
right?....and not david's?
because david's was colder.

I´m fine, thank you, but, if you want to know, my hair is beginning to
turn grey at the sides...

I was *of course* referring to the race David was in. (*I* haven´t
raced since early October, but that´s neither here nor there.)

"The actual air temp was -19°C" - as David wrote in the post you´ve
quoted above - and although it may be exceedingly difficult to believe
for someone who appears to be as psychologically and culturally
challenged as you are by "northern" winter conditions, it *is* the air
temperature, not the windchill temperature, that is relevant here.

Windchill becomes an issue when your concern is either your subjective
comfort zone (i.e. you will *feel* colder unless you dress for it) or
your survival (i.e. in the extreme and unfortunate case that you´re
somehow lost, stranded and ill-equipped out there in the open), but
it´s not really a factor that the organisers of a 8K road race should
be terribly concerned about.

Quoted message said:

gee, why would anyone KF me?

Dunno. We all have our little quirks, idiosyncrasies, peculiarities and
blind, tender and other spots: some can cause some of us to persist in
a habit of quoting in a most mind-boggling manner, some can cause some
of us to killfile others at whim:-)

Quoted message said:

he said he raced on saturday in this -23F. i simply was curious as

to

Quoted message said:

the distance the race was, approx how many people actually showed
up

Well, at http://www.burlingtonrunners.com/robbieburns/ (which we
arrived via a quick Google search for "Ontario race January 23 2005"😉
we can learn that there were "334 entrants" and "256 finishers" (I
hazard the guess that there weren´t 78 DNFs; 334 runners of whom 256
showed up had registered for the event). FWIW it´s a good bit down
from last year´s 539 and 448, respectively.

(BTW in addition to 170 male and 85 female finisher there was one
"unknown". The event mascot, perhaps?)

Anders

anders said:

Dot said:

Our running store in town is apparently selling the icebug shoes now,

Quoted message said:

and I've seen tracks (or at least what I think is their tracks) of

them

Quoted message said:

on trails. Judging from lack of skid marks (where moose were slipping

on

Quoted message said:

ice), they seemed to hold fairly well on some

slight-snow-on-top-of-ice

Quoted message said:

hills.

They *are* effective, both in keeping you from skidding/falling and in
allowing you to maintain a normal, relaxed stride. For the better,
large mileage runners the latter is especially important.

ok, thanks.

Quoted message said:

If the tread pattern isn´t too fine, i.e. there´ll be enough material
around each stud, almost any kind of shoe will do, but usually a bit
heavier shoe, possibly with some stability features, is chosen. (NB
854, for instance.)

That's the problem I would have with my shoes - for studs or screws. The
Trespass tread is a little aggressive and triangular in vertical
profile, so I only have tips, relatively speaking. The Adrenalines (same
fit) have fairly thin soles for my taste. I suspect my old Grid Stabils
would work well for sole thickness, but they cause my feet problems, so
not an option. So I continue to pray for snow for snowshoeing 😉 or use
strap-on devices which are convenient for a lot of other things or run
where the grass covers the ice.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)