Coffee is good for you

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:16:56 +0100, Petra Hildebrandt <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk

http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1

Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

I'm still not sure about these results. They studied people who drank 10
or more cups per day! Maybe they were so wired that they were thin.

--
Bob in CT

Petra Hildebrandt wrote:
|| DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
|| Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk
||
||
http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1
||
|| Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂
||
|| Petra in Hamburg, Germany

Coffee Good!

Petra Hildebrandt said:

DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk

http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1

Quoted message said:

Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

Has it occurred to anyone that the group that drinks that much coffee
are different from that group that drink copious amounts of soda. In
other words, the protective aspect of coffee drinking is that they
aren't drinking large amounts of high-sugar soda.

The protection from diabetes isn't in the coffee, it is in not drinking
large volumes of sugar water.

TC

[email hidden] wrote:
|| Petra Hildebrandt wrote:
||| DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
||| Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk
|||
|||
|| http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1
|||
||| Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂
|||
||| Petra in Hamburg, Germany
||
|| Has it occurred to anyone that the group that drinks that much coffee
|| are different from that group that drink copious amounts of soda. In
|| other words, the protective aspect of coffee drinking is that they
|| aren't drinking large amounts of high-sugar soda.
||
|| The protection from diabetes isn't in the coffee, it is in not
|| drinking large volumes of sugar water.

Do you just make this stuff up? You're to LC like Mu is to the 2PD. 🙂

Sugar and carbs consumption equals diabetes T2.

Here is some info from one of my past postings.

*********

Quoted message said:

http://www.eje.org/eje/149/0099/1490099.pdf

Interesting stuff. Here is an interesting quote:

"A series of studies (33-36) report on the roles of high glucose
concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on b-cell
proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets. The
results showed that A series of studies (33-36) report on the roles
of
high glucose concentrations and different free fatty acids (FFAs) on
b-cell proliferation, apoptosis and function in cultured human islets.
The results showed that prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to
high glucose levels increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent
manner. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia. In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets
to the saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers
of b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation. However, the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did not
affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation. Moreover
when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Repeat and partial quote:
"prolonged exposure of cultured human islets to high glucose levels
increased b-cell apoptosis in a dose-dependent manner."

I don't think this could be any clearer. The more glucose b-cells were
exposed to glucose and the higher the "dose" the more apoptosis (cell
death) occurred. I gather that this is the not-so-mysterious-anymore
glucotoxicity that we've heard about. This statement seems to indicate
that there is a *direct* connection between blood sugar (glucose)
levels and b-cell death.

Repeat and partial quote:
"In addition, chronic exposure of cultured human islets to the
saturated fatty acid palmitic acid results in increased markers of
b-cell apoptosis and decreased b-cell proliferation."

Here we are told that *chronic* exposure to saturated fat cause
increased *markers* of b-cell death and decreased b-cell
proliferation. This isn't exactly saying that sat fat causes b-cell
death but only causes an increase in "markers" of b-cell death. Can we
assume that non-chronic exposures to saturated fat does not
neceassarily lead to b-cell death or significant increase in markers
of b-cell death?

Repeat and partial quote:
"the mono-unsaturated fatty acids palmitoleic acid and oleic acid did
not affect DNA fragmentation and induced b-cell proliferation.
Moreover when co-supplemented, each of the monounsaturated fatty acids
prevented apoptosis, prevented impairment of b-cell proliferation and
improved insulin secretion that was caused by palmitic acid and/or
hyperglycemia."

Mono-unsaturated fats prevented b-cell death and prevented b-cells
from suffering impaired proliferation and it improved insulin
secretion.

In conclusion,

1) Glucose impairs or kills b-cells directly dependent upon the dose
of glucose. Note that all carbs in the diet are converted to glucose.
The more the refined carbs the higher the blood glucose levels.

2) Chronic levels of saturated fats cause some stress to b-cells.

3) Mono-unsaturated fats protect and is necessary for the health of
b-cells.

Generally speaking, carbs cause b-cell death, fats protect against it.

*****

So NO, I do not make this [censored] up. Carbs in the diet leads, over time,
to b cell death and eventually diabetes type 2. We know this to be a
scientific fact, in spite of what the industry paid people at the
American Diabetes Association say.

Those that drink large amounts of coffee do not drink large amounts of
sugary drinks, therefore they will not progress to diabetes t2 in the
same time frame as those who drink large quantities of sugary drinks.

To suggest that coffee itself somehow contains some magical protective
property against diabetes t2 is the kind of [censored] only morons would
suggest and morons would believe. Looking at it thru a myopic study
like this one, and ignoring what we already know about the cause of
diabetes, is ridiculous. One needs to consider what we already know
about the impact that refined carbs has on b cells to understand why
coffee drinkers have less risk of diabetes t2.

It all makes simple sense when considered within the correct
perspective.

TC

Petra,

These studies misunderstand their result.

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who have low
levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

Research has shown that many people who go on to develop diabetes have very
high levels of stress hormones. In my case, years before developing
diabetes, I had to cut back to 2 cups a day or else I would stay awake all
night.

Ergo, the real conclusion of these studies is this: people who can tolerate
very high doses of caffeine are those who are unlikely to have the
physiological profile associated with diabetes. This is very different from
saying that their high consumption prevents diabetes.

FWIW, I dimly remember that another recent study showed that for people with
diabetes, coffee increases the insulin resistance. You might try googling
for that study.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.7 .
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Jenny's new site: What they Don't Tell You About Diabetes
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/

Jenny's Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

"Petra Hildebrandt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk

http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1

Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:42:30 -0500, Jenny <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Petra,

These studies misunderstand their result.

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who have
low
levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

Research has shown that many people who go on to develop diabetes have
very
high levels of stress hormones. In my case, years before developing
diabetes, I had to cut back to 2 cups a day or else I would stay awake
all
night.

Ergo, the real conclusion of these studies is this: people who can
tolerate
very high doses of caffeine are those who are unlikely to have the
physiological profile associated with diabetes. This is very different
from
saying that their high consumption prevents diabetes.

FWIW, I dimly remember that another recent study showed that for people
with
diabetes, coffee increases the insulin resistance. You might try googling
for that study.

"Researchers found women who drank more than four cups of regular or
decaffeinated coffee per day have significantly lower levels of a
component of insulin than non-coffee drinkers. Higher levels are linked to
the development of type 2 diabetes."

See: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/96/103937.htm

But see:

"But the caffeinated coffee drinkers released much more insulin than other
participants. In theory, the large amount of insulin released in the body
should have caused the glucose levels to drop quickly. But, three hours
later, the glucose levels of the coffee drinkers had still not returned to
normal. This suggests that caffeine reduces insulin?s effectiveness ? a
condition known as insulin resistance."

http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/news/articles/2004/October/caffeine.shtml

--
Bob in CT

Jenny said:

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who have low
levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

wrong. Ever heard of attention deficit disorder? you can feed me _gallons_
of coffee - the only thing that happens: I get tired. It is called a
paradox reaction to stimulants, caused by an abnormal brain chemistry.

Quoted message said:

Ergo, the real conclusion of these studies is this: people who can tolerate
very high doses of caffeine are those who are unlikely to have the
physiological profile associated with diabetes.

I can tolerate lots of caffeine, and I have a high probabilty of becoming
diabetic, genetically and otherwise. I _do_ have a high stress level, but
_not_ due to caffeine but due to ADD. YMMV.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I dimly remember that another recent study showed that for people with
diabetes, coffee increases the insulin resistance. You might try googling
for that study.

I will. And I didn't say that study is correct, i just found it
interesting.

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

Crafting Mom said:

Even if coffee and chocolate are discovered to truly be the evil incarnate
and secretly contain computer chips which transmit your innermost thoughts
to high-level government bureaucracies, I'm not giving it up 🙂

I agree, totally 🙂

Petra

Petra Hildebrandt said:

DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk

http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1

Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

nuthin like a good cuppa java!

"Petra Hildebrandt" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who have

low

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

wrong. Ever heard of attention deficit disorder? you can feed me _gallons_
of coffee - the only thing that happens: I get tired. It is called a
paradox reaction to stimulants, caused by an abnormal brain chemistry.

This is true for many with ADD, probably not all. It is for me as well,
Petra. And I know my stress hormone level is usually way up there. I don't
know that this makes Jenny's supposition wrong, however, since adult ADD
represents only a small portion of the population. She and TC (Tonya IIRC)
have raised some interesting questions about their interpretation of study
results, however. It would be interesting to know how the macronutrient
proportions and sugar consumption of high coffee intake subjects differed
from low intake subjects. There are so many other factors potentially
involved, such as Jenny mentioned with cortisol levels, that it makes
interpretation of this sort of study a [censored] shoot. Whoever funds it gets
first dibs, I guess.

Still, interesting and I'm glad to see it posted. There sure are a lot of
contradictory study findings for coffee, aren't there? Way more than for
most other foods/beverages.

HG

Quoted message said:

Petra Hildebrandt said:

DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH:
Fourth Major Study Confirms Coffee Reduces Diabetes Risk

http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=285&returnto=1

Quoted message said:

Now I feel much better having a cup of fresh kona 🙂

Petra in Hamburg, Germany

Has it occurred to anyone that the group that drinks that much coffee
are different from that group that drink copious amounts of soda. In
other words, the protective aspect of coffee drinking is that they
aren't drinking large amounts of high-sugar soda.

The protection from diabetes isn't in the coffee, it is in not drinking
large volumes of sugar water.

Makes sense. They could have checked by dividing their coffee group by
sugar, artificial sweetener, and no sweetener. (And I suppose asking about
artificial sweetener in cola drinkers.) The article doesn't tell much
important, it sounds like it was written by the coffee sellers. 🙂

Skinny

I think Jenny has got the right approach here, tho we can't be sure either
way, and the specific factor/s might be something different.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc." A correlation ("link"😉 between A and B doesn't
tell us whether A causes B or B causes A or there is some other factor, C,
which causes both A and B.

The problem with studies like this is that the coffee-drinkers had CHOSEN to
drink a lot of coffee over the years. Whatever caused them to crave coffee,
might have also prevented the diabetes. Or to put it another way, people
prone to diabetes may lose their taste for coffee years before the dibetes
is diagnosed.

To provide evidence that the coffee was the cause, not an effect, we'd need
to take subjects who do NOT drink coffee, and test them for diabetes, and
then get half of them to begin drinking coffee. Then see which half of the
group develops more cases of diabetes.

Bob Mauri said:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:42:30 -0500, Jenny <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Petra,

These studies misunderstand their result.

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who have
low
levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

Research has shown that many people who go on to develop diabetes have
very
high levels of stress hormones. In my case, years before developing
diabetes, I had to cut back to 2 cups a day or else I would stay awake
all
night.

Ergo, the real conclusion of these studies is this: people who can
tolerate
very high doses of caffeine are those who are unlikely to have the
physiological profile associated with diabetes. This is very different
from
saying that their high consumption prevents diabetes.

FWIW, I dimly remember that another recent study showed that for people
with
diabetes, coffee increases the insulin resistance. You might try

googling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for that study.

"Researchers found women who drank more than four cups of regular or
decaffeinated coffee per day have significantly lower levels of a
component of insulin than non-coffee drinkers. Higher levels are linked to
the development of type 2 diabetes."

See: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/96/103937.htm

This sort of thing is still subject to the 'which causes which' thing. If
their facts are correct, it could be lack of the component that CAUSES the
subjects to crave so much coffee.

Quoted message said:

But see:

"But the caffeinated coffee drinkers released much more insulin than other
participants. In theory, the large amount of insulin released in the body
should have caused the glucose levels to drop quickly. But, three hours
later, the glucose levels of the coffee drinkers had still not returned to
normal. This suggests that caffeine reduces insulin?s effectiveness ? a
condition known as insulin resistance."

http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/news/articles/2004/October/caffeine.shtml

It could as well suggest that caffeine stimulates BOTH release of insulin
AND release of stored sugar (hepatic release). I saw another study that
hooked people up to several tubes 🙂 and concluded that caffeine did in fact
cause release of stored sugar. (Don't remember whether they did a test for
insulin resistance also.)

This fits with tradition and common sense, and anyone can experiment with
it. Someone who has not eaten for hours and is very tired, takes some
caffeine. He perks up, he has energy. Where could it come from, EXCEPT from
stored reserves in the body?

Skinny

In article said:

wrong. Ever heard of attention deficit disorder? you can feed me
_gallons_
of coffee - the only thing that happens: I get tired. It is called a
paradox reaction to stimulants, caused by an abnormal brain chemistry.

Interestingly enough, I was raised in a household that drank a LOT of
coffee - my mother weaned me by putting coffee in the milk bottle - she
had to.

I also was a hyperactive child. She gave me coffee to calm me down, and
it worked.

To this day, I can drink copious amounts of coffee, and stay sane, AND
sleep at night. I had the best sleep I've had in awhile last night, and
I had six (yes, six) cups of coffee yesterday.

Oops - make that seven. I forgot the one at "coffee hour" at church.

I dunno - I think everything is so individualized, it's hard to
characterize one thing as being universal in terms of working/not
working for everyone.

Of course, your opinion (using the global "your" here) is allowed to
vary, as is your experience.

--
Nancy Howells (don't forget to switch it, and replace the 😉 to send mail).

Dark chocolate is good for you too, but that doesn't mean its my only source
of food lol darnit

I just thought of a good example of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc.'

Suppose a retroactive study (like the coffee study in this thread) shows
that people who ate fish on Fridays had more babies. They report "fish on
Fridays increases fertility" or "red meat on Fridays causes infertility."

In fact there may be a 'link' or 'correlation' or 'association'. But both
the eating and the increase in pregnancy are results of a third cause: being
Catholic.

The only way to get a good test, would be a non-retroactive test: take some
people who now eat red meat on Fridays, get them to eat fish instead, and
see if they then begin having more babies. 🙂

Skinny
---------------

Skinny said:

I think Jenny has got the right approach here, tho we can't be sure either
way, and the specific factor/s might be something different.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc." A correlation ("link"😉 between A and B

doesn't

Quoted message said:

tell us whether A causes B or B causes A or there is some other factor, C,
which causes both A and B.

The problem with studies like this is that the coffee-drinkers had CHOSEN

to

Quoted message said:

drink a lot of coffee over the years. Whatever caused them to crave

coffee,

Quoted message said:

might have also prevented the diabetes. Or to put it another way, people
prone to diabetes may lose their taste for coffee years before the dibetes
is diagnosed.

To provide evidence that the coffee was the cause, not an effect, we'd

need

Quoted message said:

to take subjects who do NOT drink coffee, and test them for diabetes, and
then get half of them to begin drinking coffee. Then see which half of the
group develops more cases of diabetes.

Bob Mauri said:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:42:30 -0500, Jenny <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Petra,

These studies misunderstand their result.

The only people who can drink 10 cups of coffee a day are those who

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low
levels of cortical (stress) hormones. Those who have high levels get
unbearable jitters after 4 or 5 and can't sleep.

Research has shown that many people who go on to develop diabetes have
very
high levels of stress hormones. In my case, years before developing
diabetes, I had to cut back to 2 cups a day or else I would stay awake
all
night.

Ergo, the real conclusion of these studies is this: people who can
tolerate
very high doses of caffeine are those who are unlikely to have the
physiological profile associated with diabetes. This is very different
from
saying that their high consumption prevents diabetes.

FWIW, I dimly remember that another recent study showed that for

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with
diabetes, coffee increases the insulin resistance. You might try

googling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for that study.

"Researchers found women who drank more than four cups of regular or
decaffeinated coffee per day have significantly lower levels of a
component of insulin than non-coffee drinkers. Higher levels are linked

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the development of type 2 diabetes."

See: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/96/103937.htm

This sort of thing is still subject to the 'which causes which' thing. If
their facts are correct, it could be lack of the component that CAUSES the
subjects to crave so much coffee.

Quoted message said:

But see:

"But the caffeinated coffee drinkers released much more insulin than

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

participants. In theory, the large amount of insulin released in the

body

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should have caused the glucose levels to drop quickly. But, three hours
later, the glucose levels of the coffee drinkers had still not returned

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

normal. This suggests that caffeine reduces insulin?s effectiveness ? a
condition known as insulin resistance."

http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/news/articles/2004/October/caffeine.shtml

Quoted message said:

It could as well suggest that caffeine stimulates BOTH release of insulin
AND release of stored sugar (hepatic release). I saw another study that
hooked people up to several tubes 🙂 and concluded that caffeine did in

fact

Quoted message said:

cause release of stored sugar. (Don't remember whether they did a test for
insulin resistance also.)

This fits with tradition and common sense, and anyone can experiment with
it. Someone who has not eaten for hours and is very tired, takes some
caffeine. He perks up, he has energy. Where could it come from, EXCEPT

from

Quoted message said:

stored reserves in the body?

Skinny