Clip on Shoes?

"Bob Marley" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is
there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

What are you wearing now? Real cycling shoes are more comfortable than
sneakers since they don't flex when you pedal. If you're already using toe
clips with real cycling shoes, clipless pedals are not a lot more efficient.

Bob Marley said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

When I was younger I rode with the cage type toeclips. When I got back
into riding I first used two bikes with plain pedals, and wore running
shoes. I really felt I couldn't pedal as steadily, fearing my feet
would slip off the pedals (though they never did). I bought a new bike
and went all the way to bike shoes that click onto the pedal, and it
really is a freer feeling. I bike for exercise though I am fairly
interested in going faster and farther in order to get in better shape.

Pam

Bob Marley said...

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

You didn't explain what you are using now or what you mean mean by
shoe/pedal clip. There are the old style toe clips and straps which are
only used by a few hold-outs now, and clipless shoes and pedals. The
clipless pedals have a mechanism to bind the shoe to the pedal much like
a ski binding. You need special cycling shoes which allow a cleat to be
bolted to the shoe to fit the pedal mechanism.

For your description of your riding, don't waste your money. Clipless
has a painful learning curve which will have you falling down and
cursing for a while until you get proficient with them. Oh, and your new
pedals are the first thing to hit the ground when you fall over,
although it might actually be the rear derailleur. You can spend
anywhere from $50 to $400 for a set of clipless pedals and shoes. Like
anything else, you more or less get what you pay for, but good sales on
shoes especially are easy to find. If you ride fast and hard and try to
explore your limits, which doesn't sound like your description, then
clipless definitely adds to the high performance experience...until you
have to take your foot off the pedal.

Bob Marley said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing
and very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy
enough. I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in
saving a few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my
helmet and frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

25 miles a day is quite a bit! You certainly can benefit from clipless:

You can utilize more muscle groups, adding efficiency and giving a better
workout.

They're safer, once you get used to them--no slipping off the pedal.

No more pressure points and sore feet, if you find shoes that fit well.

Folks will no-doubtedly post that you've got to spend so and so amount of
dollars for a set of pedals shoes, and I'll add my 2c: I've owned half a
dozen pairs of cyling shoes over the years, Diaddoras, Lakes, and [gasp]
Bata. Recently, I needed a pair of shoes/ pedals to tide me over while
looking for a fresh pair of vintage NOS shoes for my clip pedals. I got
the Nashbar housebrand road shoes and cheap mtb pedals. Total cost on sale
was 52 dollars. The pedals are made by wellgo, and the shoes by Lake,
which was lucky since I've owned two pairs of Lake cyclocross shoes in the
past and love the way they fit (they cost $120+ and feel exactly like the
Nashbar shoes). I gave up on my search and am sticking with clipless, the
cheap Nashbar shoes fit me that well. The pedals simply work, they're a
classic move-along-nothing-exciting-here design, and at under 20 bucks a
pop, I can afford to put them on my other two bikes.

SuperSlinky said:

Bob Marley said...

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

You didn't explain what you are using now or what you mean mean by
shoe/pedal clip. There are the old style toe clips and straps which are
only used by a few hold-outs now, and clipless shoes and pedals. The
clipless pedals have a mechanism to bind the shoe to the pedal much like
a ski binding. You need special cycling shoes which allow a cleat to be
bolted to the shoe to fit the pedal mechanism.

For your description of your riding, don't waste your money. Clipless
has a painful learning curve which will have you falling down and
cursing for a while until you get proficient with them. Oh, and your new
pedals are the first thing to hit the ground when you fall over,
although it might actually be the rear derailleur. You can spend
anywhere from $50 to $400 for a set of clipless pedals and shoes. Like
anything else, you more or less get what you pay for, but good sales on
shoes especially are easy to find. If you ride fast and hard and try to
explore your limits, which doesn't sound like your description, then
clipless definitely adds to the high performance experience...until you
have to take your foot off the pedal.

I've heard it mentioned here that by not using toeclips you miss about 50%
of the optimal cycling experience and by going from toeclips to clipless
you gain another 50%.

Now make what you will of the term 'optimal cycling experience' - I'm just
making that up. Let's just say that it's a large noticeable difference to
go from tennis shoes and plain pedals to toeclips - it affected my
pedalling style and cadence immensely.

I would presume that going from toeclips to clipless would also be a
noticeable difference, though not as large - IOW I doubt if my pedalling
style would change, but I would suspect my efficiency would improve
markedly. I'm planning to upgrade to clipless in the next year when I go
from a hybrid to a road bike. I'm still learning basic bike handling, so
I'm sticking with toeclips for a while. ;-)

Anyway, imagine an engine where the movement arms are only loosely attached
both horizontally and laterally to the motor shaft, vs one where the
movement arms are tightly attached. Well with plain pedals, and with
toeclips, you'd be loosely attached part of the time, even if you
emphasized the various tricks of pedalling in a circle, and using all the
leg muscles. With clipless, you'd be tightly attached, and have no slush,
no appreciable sideways movement, and since the shoes have non-flex soles,
you'd not have that flex.

After a year or so, most improvement on the bike comes in small, almost
tiny increments - we can only tell by monitoring mileage and keeping a log.
Once you've maximized other factors, such as weight loss, and bike
handling, why neglect any improvement to be gained by a simple upgrade of
equipment? YMMV, but that's my current take on it, FWIW.

-B

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:08:06 GMT, SuperSlinky <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bob Marley said...

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

You didn't explain what you are using now or what you mean mean by
shoe/pedal clip. There are the old style toe clips and straps which are
only used by a few hold-outs now,

Including 'hold-outs' who like to have a bike that is used as everyday
transportation. I have one bike that I keep as my 'hold-out' bike so
that when I want to run to the post office or to the store I can just
hope on. I don't have to change into special bicycling shoes. If I
bike to a movie, my shoes don't scrunch and click on the sidewalk,
etc., etc.

Anyway, I think toe clips have a valid place. They provide options
that clipless pedals don't. Many people don't want to have to change
into bicycle-specific clothing just to ride their bike.

Quoted message said:

and clipless shoes and pedals. The
clipless pedals have a mechanism to bind the shoe to the pedal much like
a ski binding. You need special cycling shoes which allow a cleat to be
bolted to the shoe to fit the pedal mechanism.

For your description of your riding, don't waste your money. Clipless
has a painful learning curve which will have you falling down and
cursing for a while until you get proficient with them. Oh, and your new
pedals are the first thing to hit the ground when you fall over,
although it might actually be the rear derailleur. You can spend
anywhere from $50 to $400 for a set of clipless pedals and shoes. Like
anything else, you more or less get what you pay for, but good sales on
shoes especially are easy to find. If you ride fast and hard and try to
explore your limits, which doesn't sound like your description, then
clipless definitely adds to the high performance experience...until you
have to take your foot off the pedal.

Am I the only person who learned to use clipless without any falling?
Some attentive practice, riding in calm places for a couple of hours,
etc., etc. It was five years before I took a tumble because I couldn't
unclip, and that was primarily because of an unbalanced load on a
severe hill and tipping to my unpracticed side. I am not sure if I
would have gotten out of loose clips in that situation.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:31:30 -0700, "Bob Marley" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

They allow you to pull up with force. On a fitness level, I would
think that this gives a somewhat more balanced workout to the calves
and other leg muscles.

maxo said:

You can utilize more muscle groups, adding efficiency and giving a better
workout.

They're safer, once you get used to them--no slipping off the pedal.

No more pressure points and sore feet, if you find shoes that fit well.

Folks will no-doubtedly post that you've got to spend so and so amount of
dollars for a set of pedals shoes, and I'll add my 2c: I've owned half a
dozen pairs of cyling shoes over the years, Diaddoras, Lakes, and [gasp]
Bata. Recently, I needed a pair of shoes/ pedals to tide me over while
looking for a fresh pair of vintage NOS shoes for my clip pedals. I got
the Nashbar housebrand road shoes and cheap mtb pedals. Total cost on sale
was 52 dollars. The pedals are made by wellgo, and the shoes by Lake,
which was lucky since I've owned two pairs of Lake cyclocross shoes in the
past and love the way they fit (they cost $120+ and feel exactly like the
Nashbar shoes). I gave up on my search and am sticking with clipless, the
cheap Nashbar shoes fit me that well. The pedals simply work, they're a
classic move-along-nothing-exciting-here design, and at under 20 bucks a
pop, I can afford to put them on my other two bikes.

Thanks a bunch for the specifics. I'm starting to contemplate the move from
toeclips.

Looking at the nashbar site, it appears most of the Lake MTB cycling shoes
are lace-up. One of the big advantages I'm looking for in going to a biking
shoe would be the velcro, easy-on aspect; no flopping laces or struggling
to tie your shoes when very tired (say if you've changed socks). However I
still like the idea of MTB shoes, b/c of the recessed cleats. I need to be
able to walk without tripping when tired (leg injury).

Do you have a specific link for the shoes? I might be looking in the wrong
place.

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals, then
flip them over and clip in. Are the wellgo pedals like this? As you go
cheaper in the pedals do you sacrifice important features, adjustability,
durability? The probably is a price break point for both shoes and pedals
where you'er not getting anything fancy, but the basic needed elements are
there. This is where I'd aim, I guess, unless I found a specific pair that
worked really well for me and my peculiarities (such as structural leg or
ankle alignment irregularities - my left leg tends to twist outwards).

Thanks again. Always nice to have specifics and anecdotes on this kind of
thing.

-B

Dan Daniel said:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:08:06 GMT, SuperSlinky <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

For your description of your riding, don't waste your money. Clipless
has a painful learning curve which will have you falling down and
cursing for a while until you get proficient with them.

--snip--

Am I the only person who learned to use clipless without any falling?
Some attentive practice, riding in calm places for a couple of hours,
etc., etc.

No, you're not the only one. "SuperSlinky" definitely overstated the
learning curve on clipless. All I did was sit on my bike, with an arm
holding on the porch, and practice clipping in and out a few times on
each side, then rode up and down the street a couple times, stopping at
each end and making sure that I could unclip smoothly, and I was good to
go. Haven't fallen yet.

Another option to toeclips is power grips. They're cheap and simple.
It's just a heavy canvas strap that fastens diagonally across the pedal
from the front outside edge to the rear inside edge. You angle your toe
in to put your foot in it and when you straighten your foot it tightens
down, holding your foot onto the pedal. Getting out is as simple as
angling your heel outward and pulling back. A pic here:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=&subcategory=&sku=1269&brand=

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

Badger_South said:

maxo said:

You can utilize more muscle groups, adding efficiency and giving a better
workout.

They're safer, once you get used to them--no slipping off the pedal.

No more pressure points and sore feet, if you find shoes that fit well.

Folks will no-doubtedly post that you've got to spend so and so amount of
dollars for a set of pedals shoes, and I'll add my 2c: I've owned half a
dozen pairs of cyling shoes over the years, Diaddoras, Lakes, and [gasp]
Bata. Recently, I needed a pair of shoes/ pedals to tide me over while
looking for a fresh pair of vintage NOS shoes for my clip pedals. I got
the Nashbar housebrand road shoes and cheap mtb pedals. Total cost on sale
was 52 dollars. The pedals are made by wellgo, and the shoes by Lake,
which was lucky since I've owned two pairs of Lake cyclocross shoes in the
past and love the way they fit (they cost $120+ and feel exactly like the
Nashbar shoes). I gave up on my search and am sticking with clipless, the
cheap Nashbar shoes fit me that well. The pedals simply work, they're a
classic move-along-nothing-exciting-here design, and at under 20 bucks a
pop, I can afford to put them on my other two bikes.

Thanks a bunch for the specifics. I'm starting to contemplate the move from
toeclips.

Definitely try it. As long as your shoes fit (I found out the hard way
not to tighten my shoes too much -- yowch), clipless are really nice.

Quoted message said:

However I
still like the idea of MTB shoes, b/c of the recessed cleats. I need to be
able to walk without tripping when tired (leg injury).

I opted for SPD pedals; they've got nice flat recessed cleats. And I
can walk better on the new shoes I bought for them than I can on my
other pair of cycling shoes (the ones with NO heels that make me feel
like I'm walking like a duck).

Quoted message said:

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals, then
flip them over and clip in.

I saw those on a touring bike the other day, but I didn't ask what kind
they were. Way cool. I'd be interested in seeing a link for those too.

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:04:40 -0700, Dan Daniel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:31:30 -0700, "Bob Marley" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

They allow you to pull up with force. On a fitness level, I would
think that this gives a somewhat more balanced workout to the calves
and other leg muscles.

I thought that whole 'pulling up' thing was passe as a way of pedalling. I
don't know many ppl who consciously do that. I might do a little ankling,
but mainly, the feeling I have is either mashing/stomping, or pointing my
toe to forcefully put on a cowboy boot.

The only motion I use from time-to-time on the backstroke is the 'scraping
mud off the pedal'. Even so, I only do that very occasionally, say if the
quads need a rest - I don't do it as part of the primary stroke.

Also, I'm finding now with a moderate amount of climbing, my calves and
legs get all the workout they need, and certainly, imo, more than any
amount of pedalling change up.

But I'm just askin'...iow, I'm willing to be proved wrong...

-B

"Bob Marley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

Any foot retention method has mostly safety advantages with a little added
efficiency in that you don't have to maintain pressure on the pedal just to
keep your foot from slipping. "Clipless" (like SPD) pedals have a bit
additional safety, convenience and comfort. It's really a matter of personal
preference. If you don't bike aggressively, or over rough surfaces, you
probably don't need any kind of foot retention system. Otherwise, clips work
very well, but don't offer the automatic release in a crash that clipless do.
Forget all the claims about "pulling up" and "using different muscles", those
practices don't add anything. I'd stay away from Power Grips, they're simple
and cheap, but are very prone to trapping your foot in a twisting fall.

SuperSlinky <[email hidden]> wrote:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

For your description of your riding, don't waste your money. Clipless
has a painful learning curve which will have you falling down and
cursing for a while until you get proficient with them.

I guess I have to disagree with the statement above. It took me all of
about 5 minutes on the grass to learn the ins and outs of clipless pedals.
I can't say that I've ever fallen over as a result of not getting my foot
out in time, and I ride exclusively off-road. I actually think they're
easier than clips/straps in that regard. I'm sure a lot has to do with the
type of pedal you choose. I read a lot before making the move to clipless
and went with the TIME ATAC. They'll work on any MTB or road bike. I also
hear similar good things about eggbeaters. I barely have to think about
getting my foot off the pedal -- a little twist of the heel and I'm out.
There's even enough of a platform that they can be ridden without the cleats
if you need to hit the local 7/11.

Tom

Aside from being more comfortable (the hard soles spread out the pedal
pressure so it's not concentrated in one small spot), the "snap-in"
feature allows you to pull up and push forward an back as well as push
down on the pedals (called "ankling" or round-the-clock pedaling).

This not only increases efficiency, it allows you to use more muscle
groups during your ride. You did say you rode for the exercize?

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

"the black rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

maxo said:

You can utilize more muscle groups, adding efficiency and giving a
better workout.

They're safer, once you get used to them--no slipping off the pedal.

No more pressure points and sore feet, if you find shoes that fit
well.

Folks will no-doubtedly post that you've got to spend so and so
amount of dollars for a set of pedals shoes, and I'll add my 2c:
I've owned half a dozen pairs of cyling shoes over the years,
Diaddoras, Lakes, and [gasp] Bata. Recently, I needed a pair of
shoes/ pedals to tide me over while looking for a fresh pair of
vintage NOS shoes for my clip pedals. I got the Nashbar housebrand
road shoes and cheap mtb pedals. Total cost on sale was 52 dollars.
The pedals are made by wellgo, and the shoes by Lake, which was
lucky since I've owned two pairs of Lake cyclocross shoes in the
past and love the way they fit (they cost $120+ and feel exactly
like the Nashbar shoes). I gave up on my search and am sticking
with clipless, the cheap Nashbar shoes fit me that well. The pedals
simply work, they're a classic move-along-nothing-exciting-here
design, and at under 20 bucks a pop, I can afford to put them on my
other two bikes.

Thanks a bunch for the specifics. I'm starting to contemplate the
move from toeclips.

Definitely try it. As long as your shoes fit (I found out the hard
way not to tighten my shoes too much -- yowch), clipless are really
nice.

Quoted message said:

However I
still like the idea of MTB shoes, b/c of the recessed cleats. I need
to be able to walk without tripping when tired (leg injury).

I opted for SPD pedals; they've got nice flat recessed cleats. And I
can walk better on the new shoes I bought for them than I can on my
other pair of cycling shoes (the ones with NO heels that make me feel
like I'm walking like a duck).

Quoted message said:

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals,
then flip them over and clip in.

I saw those on a touring bike the other day, but I didn't ask what
kind they were. Way cool. I'd be interested in seeing a link for
those too.

"the black rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Badger_South wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals,
then flip them over and clip in.

I saw those on a touring bike the other day, but I didn't ask what
kind they were. Way cool. I'd be interested in seeing a link for
those too.

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=13207&subcategory_ID=5240

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

the black rose said:

Quoted message said:

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals, then
flip them over and clip in.

One thing to remember with these type of pedals- you probably don't
want to put toe clips and straps on them. If you've ever ridden the
backside of pedals with clips on the other side, you've probably
experienced the clips hitting the ground. A strange feeling,
especially in corners.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:29:58 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:04:40 -0700, Dan Daniel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:31:30 -0700, "Bob Marley" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I bike for exercise; nothing serious, maybe 25 miles per day. No racing and
very little off road stuff. I have a very early MTB which is sturdy enough.
I just want to get my miles in every day and am not interested in saving a
few grams on weight here and there or having a jersey to match my helmet and
frame.

I was wondering, however, about the shoe/ pedal clip things. Is there
really enough advantage for a casual rider like me to invest in them?

They allow you to pull up with force. On a fitness level, I would
think that this gives a somewhat more balanced workout to the calves
and other leg muscles.

I thought that whole 'pulling up' thing was passe as a way of pedalling. I
don't know many ppl who consciously do that. I might do a little ankling,
but mainly, the feeling I have is either mashing/stomping, or pointing my
toe to forcefully put on a cowboy boot.

I'm not talking about ankling. Maybe I pull up all the time and it is
simply a matter of attention. But given the way my legs feel, I don't
think that I use those muscles to the same extent when I am not
consciously pulling up.

Quoted message said:

The only motion I use from time-to-time on the backstroke is the 'scraping
mud off the pedal'. Even so, I only do that very occasionally, say if the
quads need a rest - I don't do it as part of the primary stroke.

Being able to pull up is one of the nicest things about clipless (or
clipped with cleat) for me. After all the years of cycling, I figure
pushing down is second nature. I find that I can accelerate much
faster if I focus on pulling up.

Quoted message said:

Also, I'm finding now with a moderate amount of climbing, my calves and
legs get all the workout they need, and certainly, imo, more than any
amount of pedalling change up.

But I'm just askin'...iow, I'm willing to be proved wrong...

-B

I certainly don't think it's a matter of being right or wrong. Maybe
different muscles in use, or maybe just different attention.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:33:56 -0700, Dan Daniel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

the black rose said:

Quoted message said:

On the pedals, I'd favor the type where you can ride regular pedals, then
flip them over and clip in.

One thing to remember with these type of pedals- you probably don't
want to put toe clips and straps on them. If you've ever ridden the
backside of pedals with clips on the other side, you've probably
experienced the clips hitting the ground. A strange feeling,
especially in corners.

OK, you've mismatched the attribution.

I'd only want them like that for any brief hazardous stretches where I
would be a bit worried about clipping in right away.

-B