click click click

John Ricketts said:

I had a similar once/rev last week... after fitting new pedals...
drove me nuts trying to find it. It turned out that one of the
pedals was just not quite tight enough so that under load there was
a slight movement. Tightened it up, end of problem. I guess its
because the thread depth is shallow compared to the diameter. Might
use some threadlock next time...

Not to worry, all pedals move in their threads and thread lock will
not stop that. If you look at the face of any aluminum crank that has
a couple of thousand miles on it, you'll find the face of the crank
eroded from fretting motions under the shoulder of the pedal spindle.
This is what causes crank failures at the pedal eye.

Here is a way to fix that but it isn't trivial:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/bikes/brandt-cranks.jpg

Shows an eroded crank and the modification that has stopped these
failures for me.

Jobst Brandt

Skyhooks said:

Sorni said:

greggery peccary said:

Hi RBM, even the LBS cant help me with this because they dont believe
it isnt the end of the cable hitting my foot. it's not. im sure of
it, but im increasingly having a loud clicking sound about once per
crank revolution and only under load (so i cant test it on the
stand). i cant really tell if it's the chain or the cassette. any
thoughts? -alan

Bottom bracket, chainring bolt, crank bolt, cracked cleat...?

A bike of mine had the same problem with the mysterious clicking under
load (and not always at that!). Turned out it was the bottom bracket.

I've had the same occur. Of course, I've also had it happen from loose
chainring bolts and other things also...

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"All mushrooms are edible. However, some of them only once"
Ino!~

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Ricketts said:

I had a similar once/rev last week... after fitting new pedals...
drove me nuts trying to find it. It turned out that one of the
pedals was just not quite tight enough so that under load there was
a slight movement. Tightened it up, end of problem. I guess its
because the thread depth is shallow compared to the diameter. Might
use some threadlock next time...

Not to worry, all pedals move in their threads and thread lock will
not stop that. If you look at the face of any aluminum crank that has
a couple of thousand miles on it, you'll find the face of the crank
eroded from fretting motions under the shoulder of the pedal spindle.
This is what causes crank failures at the pedal eye.

Here is a way to fix that but it isn't trivial:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/bikes/brandt-cranks.jpg

Shows an eroded crank and the modification that has stopped these
failures for me.

Jobst Brandt

is that a helicoil? ive used those on cylinder heads before...

Greg who? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had a similar once/rev last week... after fitting new pedals...
drove me nuts trying to find it. It turned out that one of the
pedals was just not quite tight enough so that under load there
was a slight movement. Tightened it up, end of problem. I guess
its because the thread depth is shallow compared to the diameter.
Might use some threadlock next time...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not to worry, all pedals move in their threads and thread lock will
not stop that. If you look at the face of any aluminum crank that
has a couple of thousand miles on it, you'll find the face of the
crank eroded from fretting motions under the shoulder of the pedal
spindle. This is what causes crank failures at the pedal eye.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is a way to fix that but it isn't trivial:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/bikes/brandt-cranks.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shows an eroded crank and the modification that has stopped these
failures for me.

Quoted message said:

Is that a helicoil? I've used those on cylinder heads before...

I don't think so or you wouldn't be saying that. What is shown is
clearly NOT a Helicoil but rather a split 45 degree collet that works
like a conical lug nut on a car to support radial loads, something the
standard pedal shaft face cannot and does not do.

Helicoils are diamond cross section wires that have the same helical
pitch that the screw that fits inside has. This gives them the
smallest cross section possible allowing the stripped thread to be
bred out and re-tapped. This requires special taps because the new
bore diameter is only one thread cross section larger than the
original but with the same pitch.

http://oemfasteningsystems.thomasnet.com/category/heli-coil-thread-inserts?

I see not Helicoil in the picture I posted above.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Greg who? said:

Quoted message said:

> I had a similar once/rev last week... after fitting new pedals...
> drove me nuts trying to find it. It turned out that one of the
> pedals was just not quite tight enough so that under load there
> was a slight movement. Tightened it up, end of problem. I guess
> its because the thread depth is shallow compared to the diameter.
> Might use some threadlock next time...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not to worry, all pedals move in their threads and thread lock will
not stop that. If you look at the face of any aluminum crank that
has a couple of thousand miles on it, you'll find the face of the
crank eroded from fretting motions under the shoulder of the pedal
spindle. This is what causes crank failures at the pedal eye.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is a way to fix that but it isn't trivial:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/bikes/brandt-cranks.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shows an eroded crank and the modification that has stopped these
failures for me.

Quoted message said:

Is that a helicoil? I've used those on cylinder heads before...

I don't think so or you wouldn't be saying that. What is shown is
clearly NOT a Helicoil but rather a split 45 degree collet that works
like a conical lug nut on a car to support radial loads, something the
standard pedal shaft face cannot and does not do.

Helicoils are diamond cross section wires that have the same helical
pitch that the screw that fits inside has. This gives them the
smallest cross section possible allowing the stripped thread to be
bred out and re-tapped. This requires special taps because the new
bore diameter is only one thread cross section larger than the
original but with the same pitch.

http://oemfasteningsystems.thomasnet.com/category/heli-coil-thread-inserts?

Quoted message said:

I see not Helicoil in the picture I posted above.

Jobst Brandt

ya i thought what was pictured was a threaded insert for tapping into the
pedal. more like a lug-yes. thanks. i dont think my cranks are the prob
though i will inspect them again more thoroughly.
so many of the parts on my beat up commuter need replacement im going to
post some more questions

greggery peccary said:

"Chris Z The Wheelman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been getting the same thing on my MTB. but only under load and only
in the center ring. It's a new ring and new chain (they are correctly
matched). I've checked the ring for chipped teeth (none) and the
chainring bolts (they're all tight).

Since it's only while i'm in the center ring, I've ruled out the pedals,
cleats, spindle and bearings, as these are all used while I'm in the
other rings as well.

I've finally come to the conclusion that one of the shift pins must be
contacting the chain or something equally silly, and therefore it's
nothing ore than a harmless annoyance. Something similar might be what's
happening in your case too.

Use the process of elimination and check everything involved in the
crank, pedals (including shoes and cleats) and BB.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

i had been thinkin harmless annoyance, but after a major crash last week &
close inspection of all components it's only gotten worse, in fact the click
has turned into click click. i would try to ignore it but its getting
louder. it almost sounds like a crack in the frame! can an aluminum frame
make noises like that just before failure?

Last fall I noticed that WinterBeater had a "tick ......tick-tick
...tick........". By late winter the noise had changed to a regular, loud
TICK-TICK-TICK when I was spinning hard, but became softer or disappeared
altogether when I either coasted slowly or leaned my body hard to the right. It
turned out to be the fork. One blade was cracked where it met the crown, nearly
all the way through from back to front. I assume the noise was the steel on
either side of crack knashing together, fed by slightly out-of-round wheel
(front tube had one thick patch on the rim side). I was very lucky to discover
the crack before the blade separated. The first ~100 feet of the street beyond
my driveway is downhill, and my terminal speed - just coasting - usually exceeds
25MPH. 25MPH; downhill; sudden fork separation. (shudder!)

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that your fork or frame is talking to you.
Scrub 'em w/ soap and water and carefully inspect for cracks, ASAP.

--
Michael

Michael said:

Last fall I noticed that WinterBeater had a "tick ......tick-tick
..tick........". By late winter the noise had changed to a regular,
loud TICK-TICK-TICK when I was spinning hard, but became softer or
disappeared altogether when I either coasted slowly or leaned my body
hard to the right. It turned out to be the fork. One blade was
cracked where it met the crown, nearly all the way through from back
to front. I assume the noise was the steel on either side of crack
knashing together, fed by slightly out-of-round wheel (front tube had
one thick patch on the rim side). I was very lucky to discover the
crack before the blade separated. The first ~100 feet of the street
beyond my driveway is downhill, and my terminal speed - just coasting
- usually exceeds 25MPH. 25MPH; downhill; sudden fork separation.
(shudder!)

You're a lucky guy -- /and smart/ to use your senses and instinct to
discover the problem and avoid trouble (possibly really nasty trouble!)...

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that your fork or frame is
talking to you. Scrub 'em w/ soap and water and carefully inspect for
cracks, ASAP.

Good advice.

BS (not)

greggery peccary said:

i had been thinkin harmless annoyance, but after a major crash last week &
close inspection of all components it's only gotten worse, in fact the click
has turned into click click. i would try to ignore it but its getting
louder. it almost sounds like a crack in the frame! can an aluminum frame
make noises like that just before failure?

I had a similar ticking last year that turned out to be a loose
chainring bolt. It started up again about a month ago with the same
symptoms as you (only ticking under load on the right side power phase)
and I couldn't track it down for a week. I finally noticed an odd bit
of dirt that had accumulated around a crack forming at the web between
the crank arm and spider. The ticking had actually started to diminish
and occured infrequently by this time. I suspect that this is because
the crack had opened up enugh to limit the rubbing of the crack faces.
It was probably very close to a complete failure at that point. This
was a Specialized OEM octalink road crank from 2003. If I can track
down some dye penetrant I'll post pictures eventually.

The crack initiated in a small notch (<0.5mm) left in the edge of the
web by poor fabrication of the crank. I had noticed this notch when I
got the bike new and considered filing it smooth but figured it wasn't
worth the worry that my filing might itself cause trouble later on. Now
I realize I was right all along should have fixed it from the start.

amakyonin said:

greggery peccary said:

i had been thinkin harmless annoyance, but after a major crash last week &
close inspection of all components it's only gotten worse, in fact the click
has turned into click click. i would try to ignore it but its getting
louder. it almost sounds like a crack in the frame! can an aluminum frame
make noises like that just before failure?

I had a similar ticking last year that turned out to be a loose
chainring bolt. It started up again about a month ago with the same
symptoms as you (only ticking under load on the right side power phase)
and I couldn't track it down for a week. I finally noticed an odd bit
of dirt that had accumulated around a crack forming at the web between
the crank arm and spider. The ticking had actually started to diminish
and occured infrequently by this time. I suspect that this is because
the crack had opened up enugh to limit the rubbing of the crack faces.
It was probably very close to a complete failure at that point. This
was a Specialized OEM octalink road crank from 2003. If I can track
down some dye penetrant I'll post pictures eventually.

The crack initiated in a small notch (<0.5mm) left in the edge of the
web by poor fabrication of the crank. I had noticed this notch when I
got the bike new and considered filing it smooth but figured it wasn't
worth the worry that my filing might itself cause trouble later on. Now
I realize I was right all along should have fixed it from the start.

I did have something like that a few years back and it turned out to be
a bit of grit (probably sand) in the bottom bracket. I cleaned it out
and the noise went away but the bracket was already damaged and spit out
all of it's bearings about a month later. That was one time I was really
glad I had a cell phone. "Wife, help, come get me and my broken bike.".
She chewed me out all the way home until she saw the hopeless damage,
then felt bad and took it to the LBS for me.
Sometimes it all works out good, except for the $20+ bottom bracket.
Bill Baka

Quoted message said:

John Ricketts said:

I had a similar once/rev last week... after fitting new pedals...
drove me nuts trying to find it. It turned out that one of the
pedals was just not quite tight enough so that under load there was
a slight movement. Tightened it up, end of problem. I guess its
because the thread depth is shallow compared to the diameter. Might
use some threadlock next time...

Not to worry, all pedals move in their threads and thread lock will
not stop that. If you look at the face of any aluminum crank that has
a couple of thousand miles on it, you'll find the face of the crank
eroded from fretting motions under the shoulder of the pedal spindle.
This is what causes crank failures at the pedal eye.

Here is a way to fix that but it isn't trivial:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/bikes/brandt-cranks.jpg

Shows an eroded crank and the modification that has stopped these
failures for me.

Jobst Brandt

Nice. Wish I had the machinery to do such a mod.

--
Michael

Bill Baka said:

I did have something like that a few years back and it turned out to
be a bit of grit (probably sand) in the bottom bracket. I cleaned it
out and the noise went away but the bracket was already damaged and
spit out all of it's bearings about a month later. That was one time
I was really glad I had a cell phone. "Wife, help, come get me and
my broken bike.". She chewed me out all the way home until she saw
the hopeless damage, then felt bad and took it to the LBS for me.

I doubt that the grit made a clicking sound. Both adjustment and
lubricant were most likely affected by opening the BB for inspection
and afterward the sound was gone. I suspect there was no link between
the grit and the sound.

I can't imagine the scenario that would cause a cyclic clicking when
pedaling considering the bearing ball size and passage rate past some
source. Remember, the cranks, where clicks are most commonly
generated, were probably pulled as well and that is possibly why the
sound ceased upon re-assembly.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes it all works out good, except for the $20+ bottom bracket.

Not being privy to the bicycle in question, I find this comment
cryptic.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka said:

I did have something like that a few years back and it turned out to
be a bit of grit (probably sand) in the bottom bracket. I cleaned it
out and the noise went away but the bracket was already damaged and
spit out all of it's bearings about a month later. That was one time
I was really glad I had a cell phone. "Wife, help, come get me and
my broken bike.". She chewed me out all the way home until she saw
the hopeless damage, then felt bad and took it to the LBS for me.

I doubt that the grit made a clicking sound. Both adjustment and
lubricant were most likely affected by opening the BB for inspection
and afterward the sound was gone. I suspect there was no link between
the grit and the sound.

I can't imagine the scenario that would cause a cyclic clicking when
pedaling considering the bearing ball size and passage rate past some
source. Remember, the cranks, where clicks are most commonly
generated, were probably pulled as well and that is possibly why the
sound ceased upon re-assembly.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes it all works out good, except for the $20+ bottom bracket.

Not being privy to the bicycle in question, I find this comment
cryptic.

Jobst Brandt

It was my old beater Huffy MTB with square crank mounts.
Mostly retired now due to other things wearing out.
Bill Baka

OK, I didn't know about the crash, disregard my previous comment. If you
cannot determine the cause, then take it to a reputable bike mechanic,
let him know of the potential safety hazard and stay on it till it's
corrected.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

"greggery peccary" <.@.> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hi RBM, even the LBS cant help me with this because they dont believe
it isnt the end of the cable hitting my foot. it's not. im sure of it,
but im increasingly having a loud clicking sound about once per crank
revolution and only under load (so i cant test it on the stand). i
cant really tell if it's the chain or the cassette. any thoughts?
-alan

I had the same thing, It was a pretty new bike. The rear wheel spokes
streched, and the clicking was the spoke heads against the hub.

True the wheel and add a 1/2 turn to each spoke

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Chris Foster said:

Quoted message said:

Hi RBM, even the LBS cant help me with this because they don't
believe it isn't the end of the cable hitting my foot. It's not.
I'm sure of it, but im increasingly having a loud clicking sound
about once per crank revolution and only under load (so I can't
test it on the stand). I can't really tell if it's the chain or
the cassette. Any thoughts?

Quoted message said:

I had the same thing, It was a pretty new bike. The rear wheel
spokes streched, and the clicking was the spoke heads against the
hub.

I am sure your spokes did not stretch. Why do you believe they did
so? Clicking sounds in wheels nearly always arise from rust between
steel rim eyelets and spoke nipples. If you tightened the spokes,
then rotating the spoke nipples got rid of the clicking... but only
temproarily. It will return.

Quoted message said:

True the wheel and add a 1/2 turn to each spoke

That's not so great an idea if the wheel is already properly
tensioned. Let's hope it is a bit loose if this is done or the wheel
will taco at the first hard braking if not sooner. Assuming the wheel
is properly tensioned, a drop of oil at each spoke nipple/eyelet
interface and a quarter turn fore and aft will lubricate the
interface. This should stop the clicking and if it does you have your
answer.

I suspect that that sound, if a once-around of the crank, is possibly
coming from the shift cable guide at the BB. Drop some oil on both
front and rear derailleur cables where they slide in the guide, be
that a separate part or a groove under the BB.

Jobst Brandt

[email hidden] wrote in news:44a5caa5$0$12753
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

Quoted message said:

Hi RBM, even the LBS cant help me with this because they don't
believe it isn't the end of the cable hitting my foot. It's not.
I'm sure of it, but im increasingly having a loud clicking sound
about once per crank revolution and only under load (so I can't
test it on the stand). I can't really tell if it's the chain or
the cassette. Any thoughts?

Quoted message said:

I had the same thing, It was a pretty new bike. The rear wheel
spokes streched, and the clicking was the spoke heads against the
hub.

I am sure your spokes did not stretch. Why do you believe they did
so?

Are you suggesting brand new spokes do not stretch?

I worked in a bike shop for 15 years. I have seen several hundred wheels
come back after 200 - 300 miles, that needed truing due to low spoke
tension. The heaver the rider, the lower the spoke tension in the wheel.

Clicking sounds in wheels nearly always arise from rust between

Quoted message said:

steel rim eyelets and spoke nipples. If you tightened the spokes,
then rotating the spoke nipples got rid of the clicking... but only
temproarily. It will return.

Quoted message said:

True the wheel and add a 1/2 turn to each spoke

That's not so great an idea if the wheel is already properly
tensioned. Let's hope it is a bit loose if this is done or the wheel
will taco at the first hard braking if not sooner. Assuming the wheel
is properly tensioned, a drop of oil at each spoke nipple/eyelet
interface and a quarter turn fore and aft will lubricate the
interface. This should stop the clicking and if it does you have your
answer.

I suspect that that sound, if a once-around of the crank, is possibly
coming from the shift cable guide at the BB. Drop some oil on both
front and rear derailleur cables where they slide in the guide, be
that a separate part or a groove under the BB.

Jobst Brandt

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Chris Foster said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Hi RBM, even the LBS cant help me with this because they don't
> believe it isn't the end of the cable hitting my foot. It's not.
> I'm sure of it, but I'm increasingly having a loud clicking sound
> about once per crank revolution and only under load (so I can't
> test it on the stand). I can't really tell if it's the chain or
> the cassette. Any thoughts?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had the same thing, It was a pretty new bike. The rear wheel
spokes streched, and the clicking was the spoke heads against the
hub.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am sure your spokes did not stretch. Why do you believe they did
so?

Quoted message said:

Are you suggesting brand new spokes do not stretch?

Quoted message said:

I worked in a bike shop for 15 years. I have seen several hundred
wheels come back after 200 - 300 miles, that needed truing due to
low spoke tension. The heaver the rider, the lower the spoke
tension in the wheel.

Spokes do not plastically stretch (become longer in use) that is
certain. If they did, it would mean they are operating at and above
the yield stress and that causes rapid fatigue failure (spokes
breaking). If you had to re-tighten spokes it was because the rim was
weak and probably ones without double walls and sockets. These rims
probably also cracked.

Bicycle reliable wheels do not reach yield stress in use in any of
their components after being built. An exception is rim is damage
from impact.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clicking sounds in wheels nearly always arise from rust between
steel rim eyelets and spoke nipples. If you tightened the spokes,
then rotating the spoke nipples got rid of the clicking... but
only temporarily. It will return.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

True the wheel and add a 1/2 turn to each spoke

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not so great an idea if the wheel is already properly
tensioned. Let's hope it is a bit loose if this is done or the
wheel will taco at the first hard braking if not sooner. Assuming
the wheel is properly tensioned, a drop of oil at each spoke
nipple/eyelet interface and a quarter turn fore and aft will
lubricate the interface. This should stop the clicking and if it
does you have your answer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect that that sound, if a once-around of the crank, is
possibly coming from the shift cable guide at the BB. Drop some
oil on both front and rear derailleur cables where they slide in
the guide, be that a separate part or a groove under the BB.

So? Did you check the shift cable?

Jobst Brandt