Cleat spacing

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use Speedplay pedals. I have played around with moving my feet
further apart and closer, but I really have no idea how far apart
they should be. I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees
to the inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base of
the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful. (I already have good
saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat placement is good).

Thanks,
Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your knees. Personally I
pronate so I have special insoles to get my knees right above my feet.
Are you sure saddle height is good? Pain in the front of the keecap usually
means your saddle is a little bit low.
Do you have free float on your cleats? You might want to experiment with the
angle your foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use Speedplay pedals. I have played around with moving my feet
further apart and closer, but I really have no idea how far apart
they should be. I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees
to the inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base of
the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful. (I already have good
saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat placement is good).

Thanks,
Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your knees. Personally I
pronate so I have special insoles to get my knees right above my feet.
Are you sure saddle height is good? Pain in the front of the keecap

usually

Quoted message said:

means your saddle is a little bit low.
Do you have free float on your cleats? You might want to experiment with

the

Quoted message said:

angle your foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are slightly
drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does that affect cleat
placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also, speedplays are free
float, so no worries about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

Quoted message said:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also,
speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm make
your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube, especially the right
knee and especially when hammering. It was the same when running, a
pronounced pronation. I put insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my
knees came out from the toptube and started pushing straight down on my
feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may never have had any. However
it seems to me my average Wattage has gone up a little bit. I'm definitely
putting out a more balanced Left-Right wattage today. I use a Polar S720
Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not hurt your knees.
Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I checked on the pro peloton on TV when I
was going through these changes and many have their knees very tight to the
toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just built that way???
Anyways it may be worth your time to consider your position in this respect.

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Quoted message said:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also,
speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm make
your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured by a
competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from the top of
the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's lowest position
aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle where I sit. The
distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds exactly to my trochanter
height.

Quoted message said:

My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube, especially the right
knee and especially when hammering. It was the same when running, a
pronounced pronation. I put insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my
knees came out from the toptube and started pushing straight down on my
feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may never have had any.

However

Quoted message said:

it seems to me my average Wattage has gone up a little bit. I'm definitely
putting out a more balanced Left-Right wattage today. I use a Polar S720
Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not hurt your knees.
Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I checked on the pro peloton on TV when

I

Quoted message said:

was going through these changes and many have their knees very tight to

the

Quoted message said:

toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just built that

way???

Quoted message said:

Anyways it may be worth your time to consider your position in this

respect.

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle between our hip
socket and knees than men do. That's why I made sure to point out that I
was a girl. (In other words, our knees don't line up directly under our
hips. We have a larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)

Quoted message said:

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle between our hip
socket and knees than men do. That's why I made sure to point out that I
was a girl. (In other words, our knees don't line up directly under our
hips. We have a larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)

Quoted message said:

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

It might be worth it to search google groups for 'knee pain' in this newsgroup since
there have been several 'success stories' of knee pain ameliorated.

-B

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

>
I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that I
did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made no
more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road and
put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey. Raise
your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height and
most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats, then
the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle too
low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage too
much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey wrote:
>>
> I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
> slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
> that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
> Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
> placement.
>
> Cat

How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that I
did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made

no

Quoted message said:

more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road and
put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey. Raise
your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height and
most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats, then
the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle too
low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage too
much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you do greater
trochanter height, it is much simpler and way more foolproof than the old
"rocking hips" routine. This measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart my feet should be
;<

Cat

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Cat Dailey wrote:
>>>
>> I don't get that "straight below your knees" ;< My knees are
>> slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
>> that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
>> Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
>> placement.
>>
>> Cat
>
>
> How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
> make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.

Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made

no

Quoted message said:

more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey.

Raise

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm.

Either

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your

toes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you do greater
trochanter height, it is much simpler and way more foolproof than the old
"rocking hips" routine. This measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart my feet should

be

Quoted message said:

;<

Cat

I cannot agree that your method of measuring seat height is better than the
rocking hips method. I started out doing a technical way of seat height
adjustment and found that my knees hurt. I adjusted my seat higher and a
little further back than the technical method and my knee problems are gone.
As far as how far your feet are apart, I don't understand. I put my cleats
in a position that was comfortable on my feet (middle of the balls worked
for me). I suggest making very small adjustments.

Once more your technical method most likely doesn't take in enough
consideration of you angle of your feet, therefore it is just a ballpark
height, IMHO.

I personally feel your seat is too low and I know that is not what you want
to hear, but I am going to tell you anyway.

Curt

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should be
when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use Speedplay
pedals. I have played around with moving my feet further apart and closer,
but I really have no idea how far apart they should be.

Cat, the term you're referring to is "tread" or more commonly "Q
factor":

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cranks.html#tread

What's an ideal Q factor? I have no idea, but I've heard that less
is better. Not very helpful, is it?

Quoted message said:

I am having a
little bit of knee pain in both knees to the inside and at the top of the
kneecap (kind of at the base of the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful.

How about the rotation of the cleat? Most people's feet turn out a
little naturally, so the cleat needs to accommodate this rotation.
If you sit on a table and let your feet dangle, this should show you
your natural rotation. My right foot rotates outwards, so a cleat
that doesn't take this into account makes the inside of my knee sore.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should
be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People with
very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close together and would
probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your ankles don't
bump the crank arms).

Ken said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should
be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People with
very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close together and would
probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your ankles don't
bump the crank arms).

May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and tripod to take pics of
her spacing from the front, side and especially the rear (and maybe from above,
i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward aligning and framing the feet
and knee positions relative to the crank, in the exposure.

Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment that will allow some slight
adaptive experimentation.

I would think the aim would be to take into account the normal seated
'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal orthotics or adjustments to allow the
most trim, plum and level "neutral" position. It's all about wear on the joints and the
alignment of the spine.

I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to a good chiro., see if there's
anything that I can work on aligning better with exercises, etc.

-B

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use Speedplay
pedals. I have played around with moving my feet further apart and

closer,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I really have no idea how far apart they should be.

Cat, the term you're referring to is "tread" or more commonly "Q
factor":

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cranks.html#tread

What's an ideal Q factor? I have no idea, but I've heard that less
is better. Not very helpful, is it?

Quoted message said:

I am having a
little bit of knee pain in both knees to the inside and at the top of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kneecap (kind of at the base of the VMO). Any suggestions would be

helpful.

Quoted message said:

How about the rotation of the cleat? Most people's feet turn out a
little naturally, so the cleat needs to accommodate this rotation.
If you sit on a table and let your feet dangle, this should show you
your natural rotation. My right foot rotates outwards, so a cleat
that doesn't take this into account makes the inside of my knee sore.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Thanks Terry! Thank goodness someone finally talked about the question I
asked (my seat height is fine thankyouverymcuh ;>😉. I don't have to worry
about rotation, cause Speedplays allow me to freefloat in both directions.
I just need to know if there is a reasoned way to determine how far apart my
feet should be.

Thanks,
Cat

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should
be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People with
very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close together and

would

Quoted message said:

probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your ankles

don't

Quoted message said:

bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to the last time I
walked in sand or left wet footprints, my prints were rather close together.
But what if I swing my feet in as I step down? I don't know if this
translates to pedaling action or not, which is why I asked. Surely someone
knows the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING???? <shouting over>

Cat

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet

should

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People with
very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close together and

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as your ankles

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bump the crank arms).

May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and tripod to take pics of
her spacing from the front, side and especially the rear (and maybe from

above,

Quoted message said:

i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward aligning and framing

the feet

Quoted message said:

and knee positions relative to the crank, in the exposure.

Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment that will allow some

slight

Quoted message said:

adaptive experimentation.

I would think the aim would be to take into account the normal seated
'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal orthotics or adjustments to allow

the

Quoted message said:

most trim, plum and level "neutral" position. It's all about wear on the

joints and the

Quoted message said:

alignment of the spine.

I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to a good chiro., see

if there's

Quoted message said:

anything that I can work on aligning better with exercises, etc.

-B

That's not a bad suggestion (pics, I mean), but I don't know how to
interpret the information.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People
with very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close
together and would probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as
long as your ankles don't bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to the last
time I walked in sand or left wet footprints, my prints were rather
close together. But what if I swing my feet in as I step down? I
don't know if this translates to pedaling action or not, which is why
I asked. Surely someone knows the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING???? <shouting
over>

Cat

Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you.
You know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see that is
exactly the question I answered.

SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO EACH OTHER AS
POSSIBLE.
Besides I still think it's your saddle.

--
Perre
"Why do some people not listen until they get the answer they've been
waiting for"

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
> should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
> use

How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk? That's a good
starting point. Hip sizes vary widely, especially in women. People
with very thin hips generally walk with their feet very close
together and would probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as
long as your ankles don't bump the crank arms).

Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to the last
time I walked in sand or left wet footprints, my prints were rather
close together. But what if I swing my feet in as I step down? I
don't know if this translates to pedaling action or not, which is why
I asked. Surely someone knows the answer???

HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING???? <shouting
over>

Cat

Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you.
You know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see that is
exactly the question I answered.

SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO EACH OTHER AS
POSSIBLE.
Besides I still think it's your saddle.

--
Perre
"Why do some people not listen until they get the answer they've been
waiting for"

Oh, fer cryin' out loud and the love of pete (smiling)...that's the most
wishy washy load of whooey I've ever heard. I can move my knees in or out
relative to the toptube, which changes whether or not my knees are aligned
as vertical as possible. That is a meaningless measurement. No offense
meant, really....

Cat
who is not not listening until I get the answer I want because I DON'T KNOW
THE ANSWER!!!!

Cat Dailey said:

Cat
who is not not listening until I get the answer I want because I DON'T KNOW
THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer is???!!!!????? Why
don't you just tell us what answer you want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around. Carry an allen
wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!! Eventually I found a place
that made the knee pain go away. Basically I listened to what my body
was telling me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
unknown situation.

"Dan Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Cat
who is not not listening until I get the answer I want because I DON'T

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer is???!!!!????? Why
don't you just tell us what answer you want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around. Carry an allen
wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!! Eventually I found a place
that made the knee pain go away. Basically I listened to what my body
was telling me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
unknown situation.

Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter. Just moving my cleats
around is an inefficient and potentially damaging way of going about this.
I asked if anyone had a "REASONED" approach or formula for determining
CORRECT cleat spacing. Why is that so hard to understand? If I wanted to
merely goof around by trial and error, I could certainly do that. HOWEVER,
there are some formulas for determining correct saddle height, cleat
placement fore/aft, etc., which while not perfect, are a good starting
point. I've never come across any similar information regarding cleat
spacing, and wondered if anyone here had.

On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look pedals that allow
you to move the platform in/out and also change the angle, how do you know
(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how do you figure out
how much "correction" you need?

Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements (NOT trial and
error) that one might rely upon?

And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly worded for you. I
really mean no offense, but would like some solid info.

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

"Dan Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

Cat
who is not not listening until I get the answer I want because I DON'T

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

THE ANSWER!!!!

So how will have any idea what the correct answer is???!!!!????? Why
don't you just tell us what answer you want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around. Carry an allen
wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!! Eventually I found a place
that made the knee pain go away. Basically I listened to what my body
was telling me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
unknown situation.

Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter.

Likewise, I'm sure! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Just moving my cleats
around is an inefficient and potentially damaging way of going about this.
I asked if anyone had a "REASONED" approach or formula for determining
CORRECT cleat spacing. Why is that so hard to understand? If I wanted to
merely goof around by trial and error, I could certainly do that. HOWEVER,
there are some formulas for determining correct saddle height, cleat
placement fore/aft, etc., which while not perfect, are a good starting
point. I've never come across any similar information regarding cleat
spacing, and wondered if anyone here had.

I was looking for this kind of thing months ago. Looking looking
looking. I never found it. There are the general rules on knee pain,
which seems to come down to two things- saddle height and move the
cleat back. Beyond that, I could find nothing substantial.

I think that there is a reason for this- the factors are too variable.
Even in the answers here, you can see that.

You may think I was being snide, for reasons I can understand, but I
was being realistic based on my experience. I did not ruin my knees
with experiments. When a position was better, my knees told me within
a few miles. When a position was worse, my knees told me within a few
miles. For me, it was a slow hunt, and parts of it are still ongoing
as I deal with different bikes and setup and use issues.

One thing that has made a big difference for me is moving my seat
forward. This goes against the basic setup that is recommended, where
having the seat back gives better power. But going forward helped
eliminate the pain at the top/inside of my knee cap. If you think
about the pressure on the upper kneecap in relation to the hip's
position fore and aft, this makes sense to me. But this is another
story, another 'try this- it worked for me' thing that is leaving you
very frustrated, I can see.

Quoted message said:

On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look pedals that allow
you to move the platform in/out and also change the angle, how do you know
(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how do you figure out
how much "correction" you need?

Uh, when it doesn't hurt you've found the right spot? 🙂 Oops, you
don't like answers like that.....

Look, I have been very worried about long term damage. Worried that a
position that felt ok was actually chewing up my knee from the inside
and that I would never recover from the damage. But it hasn't turned
out this way. Positions that have felt better have not come back to
haunt me.

Quoted message said:

Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements (NOT trial and
error) that one might rely upon?

You might ask in rec.bicycles.racing or rec.bicycles.tech Maybe
people in one of those groups will be better informed. Or at least
have more sophisticated knowledge of sports physiology information and
resources on the web or elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly worded for you. I
really mean no offense, but would like some solid info.

So would I, but I never found any. The closest I came was looking into
knee problems, and the focus was on runners. Maybe there is a hidden
mother lode of cleat position info and studies out there, but no one
here would ever let me in on the secret 🙂

I would suggest r.b.racing or some other forum for racers to find out
if such information and studies exist.