cleaning fun...(not)

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

And where did you get this little gem of a myth from?

OK guys, grease is definitely a lubricant, but what exactly is its effect in a bike wheel hub?

How is this theory: grease primarily lubricates the low-load ball-ball (or ball-race) contact
areas to reduce wear and prolong bearing life.

The grease treats the bearings, but does not hang around in it's viscous form as such, and so
arguably it is no longer grease as such at this point. You could debate this at end. The important
thing is that grease was there at one point, and that dirt has not gotten in contact with the
rolling surface.

Quoted message said:

Friction on the _rolling_ hub/cone-bearing contact is minimal, and doesnt directly need grease,
just to keep the bearings in good condition.

Sounds about right to me!
---
DFM

Deep Freud Moors:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Deep Freud Moors:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Deep Freud Moors:
>
> > With regards to your bearings, if they are well packed with grease,
getting
> > water in should not be a big problem. The primary purpose of the

grease

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is
> > not lubrication, but to keep dirt and water out.
>
> Not true. In bearings the primary purpose of grease is lubrication. The primary purpose of
> seals is keeping water and dirt out.

Quoted message said:

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

And where did you get this little gem of a myth from? You may think you have a new contrary
insight into something that's been established by tribology science hundreds of years ago, but I
think you're just making it up. Read any basic tribology book.

Quoted message said:

You were the one that claimed it to not be true. Provide a couple of cites, and I might just come
around to your view.

For the principle behind grease lubrication, type "tribology" on Amazon.com, and you'll get many
references. Pick up ANY book on tribology from your nearest tertiary institution library. For
evidence of grease as good lubricant, talk to any engineer or engineering student. Talk to any
mechanic. In fact, talk to anyone who's ever used grease as lubricant. I'm not going to do the work
for you. Your claim that grease does not lubricate is what's ridiculously false.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its viscosity.

So why do you think your bearings remain lubricated when only grease is ever applied by the
manufacturer/mechanic?

Grease consists of oil and carrier compound. The carrier is thick and while the bulk of it may
be pushed out of the way of the bearing/race interface, the oil remains between the contact
patch and the carrier/oil compound which stays around the path ensures a steady supply of
lubricant.

Quoted message said:

That is what I would constitute as "treating" the metal surface.

You meant nothing of the sort and you know it. You're wrong in any case. "Treating the metal
surface" implies changing the property of the metal, such as anodizing or any process that alters
the structure of the metal. Applying oil or grease does not "treat" the metal because it does not
change its basic structure.

You have not answered the question: why do bearings remain lubricated when grease is applied, when
according to your theory, the grease will be pushed out by the bearings?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually the surface where the bearings run.

Please. The bearing/race contact path is not in fact dry, but lubricated with a thin film
provided by the grease. Even with a tremendous load the film remains; the only way to eliminate
the lubricant is to wash it away with solvent or stop replenishing it, in which case it may dry
up eventually. Grease ensures adequate lubricant supply for a longer time than mere oil.

Quoted message said:

I said "driest". I did not say dry.

Semantics do not provide you with any refuge. The greased bearing/race interface isn't "dry",
"drier", or "driest". Oil exists between the interface even when loaded to such an extent that the
race surface is deformed.

Quoted message said:

Yes the grease treats the metal causing it to last longer.

No, grease does not treat the metal, it provides lubrication. Lubrication lasts longer when using
grease because the oil carrier that sticks around keeps an oil supply to the interface, which would
otherwise just run off.

Quoted message said:

Whether or not this constitutes "lubrication" is up for debate, but bugger all of the grease hangs
around the bearing contact surfaces.

It's not up for debate, grease provides lubrication for the metal contact areas in greased systems.
It's obvious you know nothing about basic tribology, so brush up on the basics before you spout
myths about lubrication.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs. Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either,
but have donut-shaped

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and water out.

Grease as water and dirt barrier is a secondary characteristic, not primary.

Utter [censored]. Dirt will kill bearings MUCH faster than an absence of grease. Clean dry bearings
will run for a long time, dirty bearings (even when greased) will not.

Don't change the subject. Grease's secondary property as water and dirt barrier is what's been
pointed out, NOT whether dirt is destructive to bearings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Grease in fact attracts dirt. It's not a substitute for seals. If it were so, seals for bearings
or any rotating machinery will not be necessary.

Quoted message said:

That is why both seals and grease are used.

Stop making things up. If you have references to your dubious claims, provide them. On the other
hand, it's quite easy to check the falsity of your claims from a multitude of easily accessible
resources.

Mike:

Quoted message said:

OK guys, grease is definitely a lubricant, but what exactly is its effect in a bike wheel hub?

Grease is basically a source of oil for the lubricated system. It is made up essentially of two
compounds, oil and thickener (or carrier). Either or both can have additives.

The carrier carries the oil and releases it at the appropriate occassion, when the bond between the
oil and carrier is broken. This occurs at particular temperatures and/or pressures. The carrier can
also act as a lubricant by sticking to the surfaces of the contacting elements. This carrier film
eventually wears away and must be replenished, either by more oil or more carrier. Since grease (ie
both carrier and oil) doesn't flow readily, most of the lubrication is accomplished by the oil that
is released from the carrier.

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed

Quoted message said:

as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,

Quoted message said:

but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way of the bearings after a
couple of turns, and does not return due to its viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly
is usually the surface where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no probs.
Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped little caps, which are designed
to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt

Quoted message said:

and water out.

What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Theo

Theo Bekkers <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Yes true. Grease is grease, and not designed as a lubricant. Oil is

designed

Quoted message said:

as a lubricant, grease is not. It does treat the metal surfaces to a

degree,

Quoted message said:

but any lubricating effect disappears quickly.

When you pack your bearings with grease, it gets pushed out of the way

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bearings after a couple of turns, and does not return due to its viscosity. The driest part
of the bearing assembly is usually the

surface

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are no

probs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have donut-shaped

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease to keep

dirt

Quoted message said:

and water out.

What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Exactly the same reason of course.
---
DFM

Steve Reynolds said:

Want to know how to clean your chain see: sheldonbrown.comchains.htmlOpen ↗

Forgot to mention in my last post.

The plastic jars that you buy Goulburn Valley fruit from the supermarket in, are far better than the
coke bottle that Sheldon mentions in his article. The large diameter lid makes it much easier to
retrieve the chain from the jar, far easier than fishing around in the coke bottle trying to hook
the chain with an old spoke.

7,000 kilometres on my roadie's SRAM PC89R chain so far, with no measurable wear after maintaining
it using a Sheldon's method.

SR

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Utter [censored]. Dirt will kill bearings MUCH faster than an absence of grease. Clean dry
bearings will run for a long time, dirty bearings

(even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when greased) will not.

Don't change the subject. Grease's secondary property as water and dirt barrier is what's been
pointed out, NOT whether dirt is destructive to bearings.

You are the one that is trying to change the subject!!! It was originally about wheel bearings, if
you can recall correctly. You avoided that last comparison because it illustrates my point rather
concisely, doesn't it!
---
DFM

Shimano 105 is not very cheap chain. And I have much doubts that you can disassemble it easily
without danger of total chain destroy. Construction of 73/93/DuraAce chain does not permit it
to be re-assembled without new special lock chain link. Even if you oil link which is subject
to be broken.

Quoted message said:

It's a problem with cheap and nasty chains. After a while though, you do

get

Quoted message said:

good at breaking chains though. Oiling the link before breaking it can do wonders (would you
believe???). And naturally breaking it at a different point each time makes sense.

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers wrote

Quoted message said:

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually

the

Quoted message said:

surface

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are

no

Quoted message said:

probs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have

donut-shaped

Quoted message said:

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease

to keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirt

Quoted message said:

and water out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Quoted message said:

Exactly the same reason of course.

Are you saying that if we had a way of sealing dirt out, we could run bearings without grease?

From my dictionary grease n.
1. animal fat in a soft or melted condition.
2. any thick fatty oil, esp. one used as a lubricant for machinery, etc.

Theo

Theo Bekkers <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers wrote

Quoted message said:

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> viscosity. The driest part of the bearing assembly is usually

the

Quoted message said:

surface

Quoted message said:

> where the bearings run. Whilst that surface is clean, there are

no

Quoted message said:

probs.

Quoted message said:

> Basic wheels nowadays are not sealed either, but have

donut-shaped

Quoted message said:

little

Quoted message said:

> caps, which are designed to work in conjunction with the grease

to keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dirt
> and water out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What the? Why the hell do they grease wheel bearings in cars then?

Quoted message said:

Exactly the same reason of course.

Are you saying that if we had a way of sealing dirt out, we could run bearings without grease?

Crikey, do I have to go back to my original statement yet again???

"The primary purpose of the grease is not lubrication, but to keep dirt and water out."

Note that it says "primary", not "sole".

Grease does provide somewhat of a lubricating effect, but its role of inhibiting dirt from getting
into the bearings is much more important from a reliability point of view. Dirt will kill bearings
far quicker than an absence of lubricant.
---
DFM

"Deep Freud Moors" wrote

Quoted message said:

Crikey, do I have to go back to my original statement yet again???

"The primary purpose of the grease is not lubrication, but to keep

dirt and

Quoted message said:

water out."

Note that it says "primary", not "sole".

The primary purpose of grease is lubrication. Grease is just very thick oil. It is used in
situations where a thin oil will escape.

Theo

"Deep Freud Moors" <deepfloydmars@yIaWONThBITEoYA!o.co.uk> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

<...>

Quoted message said:

Crikey, do I have to go back to my original statement yet again???

You can always tell when Steve Urwin has been on the TV ;-)

Very good interview on Denton's show.

Tim

Theo Bekkers said:

The primary purpose of grease is lubrication. Grease is just very thick oil.

Not quite, Theo. In common english usage, "grease" can refer to solid oils, such as animal fat. But
lubricating "grease" is completely different. It just looks the same, hence the same name. As he
said, its oil + thickeners.

lubems.comComposition.htmOpen ↗

"Mike" wrote

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers said:

The primary purpose of grease is lubrication. Grease is just very thick oil.

Not quite, Theo. In common english usage, "grease" can refer to solid oils, such as animal fat.
But lubricating "grease" is completely different. It just looks the same, hence the same name. As
he said, its oil + thickeners.

I believe the context of the discussion was grease as used on bicycles. I don't think anyone was
advocating the use of chicken fat in their bottom bracket. :-)

Theo

Is it ok to hose a bike to clean it?

Arpit said:

Is it ok to hose a bike to clean it?

Yes, but use a low pressure garden hose and try not to concentrate the stream at the hubs, bottom
bracket or steerer tube.

A shimano team mechanic I was talking with a few years ago said that he only ever used a bucket, a
small amount of dishwashing detergent and a large soft brush (like a dustpan brush). The point was
that he washed and serviced the team bikes after *every* ride, so the dirt was never caked on to a
point that it had to be blasted off

Al.

Deep Freud Moors:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Utter [censored]. Dirt will kill bearings MUCH faster than an absence of grease. Clean dry
bearings will run for a long time, dirty bearings

(even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when greased) will not.

Don't change the subject. Grease's secondary property as water and dirt barrier is what's been
pointed out, NOT whether dirt is destructive to bearings.

You are the one that is trying to change the subject!!! It was originally about wheel bearings, if
you can recall correctly. You avoided that last comparison because it illustrates my point rather
concisely, doesn't it!

Nope. You made several false statements about grease, and whether it's used for bearings or turbine
rotors or gears, the primary purpose of it is lubrication. I see you skipped all the statements
about grease being a lubricant, and not provided an iota of factual data about why you think
otherwise.

Deep Freud Moors:

Quoted message said:

Crikey, do I have to go back to my original statement yet again???

"The primary purpose of the grease is not lubrication, but to keep dirt and water out."

Note that it says "primary", not "sole".

It's still wrong, and it doesn't matter how many times you state it. The primary purpose of grease
is lubrication. Educate yourself and you won't have to make up things like this. It's annoying for
most of everyone of us who know better.

Quoted message said:

Grease does provide somewhat of a lubricating effect,

It provides more than a "somewhat" lubricating effect, it provides *all the necessary* lubrication
required by the bearings.

Quoted message said:

but its role of inhibiting dirt from getting into the bearings is much more important from a
reliability point of view.

What rubbish. Why do you make up things like this? A secondary benefit of grease is its water
repellency, not dirt repellency. You might think that grease prevents dirt getting into the rotating
parts, but you are again wrong. Dirt is a killer in being entrained in grease, as it will eventually
be carried into the moving parts.

You've been making all these wrong claims about grease, it's time you cut your losses and go.

Mike:

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers said:

The primary purpose of grease is lubrication. Grease is just very thick oil.

Not quite, Theo.

Yes, quite.

Quoted message said:

In common english usage, "grease" can refer to solid oils, such as animal fat. But lubricating
"grease" is completely different.

Now you're just trying to be smart. Animal fat has never been inferred, implied, nor even remotely
hinted at in the thread.

Quoted message said:

It just looks the same, hence the same name.

It doesn't look the same.

Quoted message said:

As he said, its oil + thickeners.

Correct. Oil *and* thickener/carrier. Nothing else he said was correct.

Quoted message said:

lubems.comComposition.htmOpen ↗

"Arpit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it ok to hose a bike to clean it?

Not with the water restrictions. Use a bucket.

Regards,

Suzy