Classic Touring Frames

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
town.

Quoted message said:

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20

years

Quoted message said:

ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants

were

Quoted message said:

formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware

and

Quoted message said:

department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size

wheels.

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his way.

I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
readily available size.

Chas.

Quoted message said:

I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

This brings up another interesting point -- that the touring bike
should be drilled for schrader.

Doug

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

This brings up another interesting point -- that the touring bike
should be drilled for schrader.

This very subject came up just yesterday in the "Replacing a busted
MA-3 rim with a Sun CR18?" thread:

http://tinyurl.com/yo66dw

IMO, it's a very sensible idea; in a pinch (no pun intended!), you can
use a commonly available MTB tube, which are nearly always Schrader
valve.

* * Chas said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>> bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
> town.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20

years

Quoted message said:

ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants

were

Quoted message said:

formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware

and

Quoted message said:

department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size

wheels.

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his way.

I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
readily available size.

650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one

brand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on

eBay now:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...

Quoted message said:

That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

* * Chas said:

"understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any color
you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)
We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was importing
the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of any
European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and geometry
was always "spot on" too.

That would be Cycle Imports, Cornish ME

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>>> with 650b tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote
>> Who?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
> http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-

Quoted message said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
guy.

Tom Nakashima said:

He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
A very serious individual who puts out a good product.

Speaking as The Last Bruce Gordon Cycles Dealer, he is not only a
craftsman/artisan of the first rank but an experienced touring cyclist
with many innovative approaches and developments to his credit.

Being unable to work for 23c an hour, people whose products are
sometimes unfairly compared to his, he does have a cynical and bitter
side. If you can manage to engage him enough to buy something, it can be
well worth the effort.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
guy.

Tom Nakashima said:

He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
A very serious individual who puts out a good product.

Speaking as The Last Bruce Gordon Cycles Dealer, he is not only a
craftsman/artisan of the first rank but an experienced touring cyclist
with many innovative approaches and developments to his credit.

Being unable to work for 23c an hour, people whose products are sometimes
unfairly compared to his, he does have a cynical and bitter side. If you
can manage to engage him enough to buy something, it can be well worth the
effort.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yea, I just hate to hear the bitterness of some of these master frame
builders. Eisentraut was another, outstanding craftsman, but never made
the big bucks. Gordon said in an interview a few years ago, when asked
what he would do different in his life, he answered; "Get a real job!"
-tom

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one

brand

Quoted message said:

> that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on

eBay now:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

* * Chas said:

"understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any

color

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)
We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was

importing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and

geometry

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was always "spot on" too.

That would be Cycle Imports, Cornish ME

--
Andrew Muzi

Yes, they were nice folks to do business with.

Chas.

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:

Quoted message said:

> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

>> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being

made

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

>>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to

700C.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That

Quoted message said:

>>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the

720

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

>>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper

brakes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe

cantilever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and

tires

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

>>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>>> bikes.

Quoted message said:

>> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4

tires in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

>> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if

not in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> town.

Quoted message said:

> You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare

folding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

> My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do

sell a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store

circuit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

> the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20

years

Quoted message said:

ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants

were

Quoted message said:

formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in

hardware

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size

wheels.

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his

way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
readily available size.

650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)

http://www.discoverfrance.com/

"Remulak... a small town in France. We come from France."

http://www.wavsource.com/snds_2007-06-02_1579284943785088/tv/snl/aykroyd_coneheads4.wav

Chas.

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being

made

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with
> >>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to

700C.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That
> >>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the

720

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of
> >>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper

brakes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe

cantilever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and

tires

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> >>> bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4

tires in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a
> >> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if

not in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> town.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a
> > couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare

folding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do

sell a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store

circuit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> > the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years
> ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants
were
> formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in

hardware

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size
wheels.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his

way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
readily available size.

Quoted message said:

650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)

http://www.discoverfrance.com/

"Remulak... a small town in France. We come from France."

650B - the Conehead's choice!

* * Chas said:

Quoted message said:

Doesn't have canti BO's.

Quoted message said:

That was the only one currently on eBay. The OP seemed to indicate that
they were looking for an older frame.

Yo, not finding fault. Trying to stick to the OP's specs.

I poked around in old Trek brochures online, perhaps my memory of
canti brakes on Trek touring bikes is wrong.

Very possible. --D-y

Gary Young said:

Pilgrim said:

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Quoted message said:

I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with 27"
wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That was
true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of that
era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes (using drop
bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a
different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your
choices are pretty meager.

Early 80s Trek touring bikes did come with 27" wheels. My 720 has 27"
wheels with cantilever brakes. I did test 700C wheels in it, and it is
possible to angle the pads to reach the rims, even with MAFAC
cantilevers. Later Shimano and Gran Compe cantilevers had some vertical
adjustment that would make it even easier.

--

John ([email hidden])

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor
27-inch tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but
where were the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell
with crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face
in boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they
sell now is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

Ominously, as the picture shows, I couldn't find a 27-inch Slime tube
and settled for posing a 26-inch box that lists all the sizes. Either
they've stopped selling 27-inch Slime tubes, or else they sell that
size so fast that they can't keep the tubes in stock.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel said:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

I think those tires have steel beads. I started a thread about this a few
months ago:

http://tinyurl.com/32v5av

The packaging says that the beads are made of "carbon steel." After
hearing what other people had to say in that thread, I was pretty much
resigned to the idea that the packaging was in error and that the beads
are really kevlar. But now I'm reconsidering based on a recent visit to
Target. They've also got folding tires, under a different brand name and
with different packaging, but which are also claimed to have carbon-steel
beads. It's possible both tires come from a common supplier, but it seems
unlikely that both boxes would make the same error. Furthermore, these
tires don't fold down as flat as kevlar-beaded tires and the beads offer
more resistance when you pinch them in a loop between thumb and finger.

I suppose I'll have to buy one of the damn things and cut it open. I'm
curious to see what sort of compromises they might have had to make.

Quoted message said:

Ominously, as the picture shows, I couldn't find a 27-inch Slime tube
and settled for posing a 26-inch box that lists all the sizes. Either
they've stopped selling 27-inch Slime tubes, or else they sell that size
so fast that they can't keep the tubes in stock.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:23:12 -0500, Gary Young <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

I think those tires have steel beads. I started a thread about this a few
months ago:

http://tinyurl.com/32v5av

The packaging says that the beads are made of "carbon steel." After
hearing what other people had to say in that thread, I was pretty much
resigned to the idea that the packaging was in error and that the beads
are really kevlar. But now I'm reconsidering based on a recent visit to
Target. They've also got folding tires, under a different brand name and
with different packaging, but which are also claimed to have carbon-steel
beads. It's possible both tires come from a common supplier, but it seems
unlikely that both boxes would make the same error. Furthermore, these
tires don't fold down as flat as kevlar-beaded tires and the beads offer
more resistance when you pinch them in a loop between thumb and finger.

I suppose I'll have to buy one of the damn things and cut it open. I'm
curious to see what sort of compromises they might have had to make.

[snip]

Dear Gary,

Now that you remind me, I vaguely remember that thread--I just assumed
that the rolled-up tire was Kevlar bead as well as belt.

But don't buy one just to cut it open to check for a steel bead and
make me feel guilty about your wasted $15.

Check it with a magnet, which is what I'm going to do.

Of course, if you have more grisly investigations in mind, never mind.
There are some things that a magnet can't tell us.

Cheers,

Pilgrim said:

Quoted message said:

Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.

Should I clarify that I'm looking for a sub $400 frame too?

Look for a Woodrup Giro frame. Most of them are touring bikes, if not
all, full 531 DB, well-finished lugged construction even if not up to
Waterford or Richard Sachs standards. They're undervalued, I got an
unbuilt slightly shopworn frame with fork off Ebay for about $200
including shipping a few years back.

Nice supple ride, flexy, corners as if on rails, but needs a lot of
turn-in force at speed, very cushy over bumps and jitters.

Ken

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:23:12 -0500, Gary Young <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

I think those tires have steel beads. I started a thread about this a few
months ago:

http://tinyurl.com/32v5av

The packaging says that the beads are made of "carbon steel." After
hearing what other people had to say in that thread, I was pretty much
resigned to the idea that the packaging was in error and that the beads
are really kevlar. But now I'm reconsidering based on a recent visit to
Target. They've also got folding tires, under a different brand name and
with different packaging, but which are also claimed to have carbon-steel
beads. It's possible both tires come from a common supplier, but it seems
unlikely that both boxes would make the same error. Furthermore, these
tires don't fold down as flat as kevlar-beaded tires and the beads offer
more resistance when you pinch them in a loop between thumb and finger.

I suppose I'll have to buy one of the damn things and cut it open. I'm
curious to see what sort of compromises they might have had to make.

[snip]

Dear Gary,

You're dead right. When I went back and checked, the box said carbon
steel bead (extra thick or something, so that it can be folded) and
the magnet confirmed it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Pilgrim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pilgrim said:

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Jesse

After reading Sheldon's article about them, I'm starting to consider
the old fillet-brazed Schwinns. Not to sound like a poser, but I
really like the idea of an American built frame, especially a
handbuilt one. I guess if I'm being honest, this bike's as much a
fashion statement as it is transportation. But then, I live in San
Francisco, and half the kids here ride bikes with no brakes just to
look cool. A little "Made in America" sticker isn't too bad is it?

Anyhow, about the Schwinns; I don't see braze-ons for racks on any of
the ones on eBay, and they don't appear to have cantilever brakes.
Anyone know about tire/fender clearance on these bikes. is it possible
to braze on your own brake, pump, and rack fittings? I've done a
little brazing, so it seems doable.

The old filet brazed Schwinns were 40 Lb. tanks made from very heavy wall
thickness tubing. There was probably 1/2 Lb. of brazing material on each
frame.

There were one or two models made with alloy steel and one made with
thinner wall thickness tubes; the rest were made from gas pipe.

One of the big problems with the old Schwinns was/is they used undersized
tubing and better quality components don't fit the seat and downtube
without modification. Another could be getting quality modern wheels to
fit.

Here's what could be a good deal on a Centurion lugged steel frame touring
bike from the late 70s or early 80s. It has good touring components from
the pre-index days and what looks to be a good frame. Tange #2 double
butted tubing was comparable to Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL tubes.

It appears that someone put on a cheap set of 27" bolt on wheels. That can
be easily fixed with some better wheels.

I have nothing to do with this auction, I just ran across it today and
thought it matched what you were looking for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/56-CM-Centurion-Chapion-2-PRO-TOUR-15-MENS-15-speed_W0QQitemZ260126041351QQihZ016QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Chas.

Pilgrim said:

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

They are glorious, wonderful frames. I had several friends ride
across America on old lugged Treks. Never any (frame) problems.

Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, [censored] it
up. Fuji and Centurion made some decent bikes and you can pick them
up CHEAP (although they are not quite as nice as Treks or B'Stones).
If you can find an old Miyata touring frame, that's another excellent
candidate.

Have you checked out:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BOBishBikesFS

Bob Hufford and his minions mine craigslist, eBay, etc. for old,
lugged bikes and post the FS ads here. It's a nice resource.

Have fun shopping!

- Forbes

carlfogel said:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

I'm surprised that wire beaded tires have lasted this long. I've always
wondered when they'd finally disappear. It has to be cheaper to ship and
store folded tires. Kevlar beads may cost a few pennies more than steel
wire, but I'm sure this is moot compared to the other costs.

Back to the touring issue -- I wouldn't worry about it. I ride thousands
of miles a year without tire mishaps, so why should it be any different on
a tour? The chances of having a major tire problem seem pretty small.
As long as I have the usual patches, a spare tube, and some
emergency booting material, I'd be confident I could go anywhere.

Matt O.