Classic Touring Frames

The problem with most old touring frames is that they have 1" top tube and
1-1/8" down tube, and they get a bit whippy when loaded front and rear for
cycle camping.

The Surly LHT I bought last year has larger diameter top and down tubes, and
has a lot less frame flex when loaded up than my old c. 1982 lugged 531
touring frame.

Nick

"Pilgrim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Pilgrim said:

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Jesse

After reading Sheldon's article about them, I'm starting to consider
the old fillet-brazed Schwinns. Not to sound like a poser, but I
really like the idea of an American built frame, especially a
handbuilt one. I guess if I'm being honest, this bike's as much a
fashion statement as it is transportation. But then, I live in San
Francisco, and half the kids here ride bikes with no brakes just to
look cool. A little "Made in America" sticker isn't too bad is it?

Anyhow, about the Schwinns; I don't see braze-ons for racks on any of
the ones on eBay, and they don't appear to have cantilever brakes.
Anyone know about tire/fender clearance on these bikes. is it possible
to braze on your own brake, pump, and rack fittings? I've done a
little brazing, so it seems doable.

doug.landau said:

Gary Young said:

Pilgrim said:

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

Quoted message said:

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem
to be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Quoted message said:

Jesse

I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
(using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
available, but your choices are pretty meager.

I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring bikes.

But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
town.

Doug

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding tire
if going on an extended tour.

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will soon
become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and the
breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Pilgrim said:

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

Quoted message said:

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Quoted message said:

Jesse

Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
only.

Made in Waterford, by Waterford Precision Cycles, with TIG welded
joints: <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php>.

Heck, this is tempting me to buy an upright!

TIG welded with the Waterford name: <http://www.waterfordbikes.com/
site/tech/os2.php>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

In article <[email hidden]>,

* * Chas said:

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
with 650b tires.

Who?

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one brand
that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on eBay
now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150128988236&rd=1&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike with
650b tires. The problem with those tire is availability. When you are in
the middle of Podunk, Kansas and you need a tire you are SOL.

Also Bob Jackson. Note the 26" inch wheels

http://roberttayloronline.com/Photos/Details.aspx?AlbumID=20&Page=0

BobT

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

* * Chas said:

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
with650btires.

Who?

Dear Tim,

In 1892, Wilbur Wright paid $80 for a used Eagle bicycle:

http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/wright_bicycles.htm

The used Eagle was probably the 1887 model:

http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com/Bike5a.html

While the Eagle's front wheel is perhaps a trife smaller than 650b,
the principle is the same.

A year later in 1888, Thomas Humber clearly had a 650b front tire in
mind:

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10218272&wwwflag=2&imagepos=23

By 1893/4, the Elliott Co. had seen that the future for women's racing
bicycles lay in small 650b-style front tires, carbon-based frames, and
low-count carbon-based racing spokes:

http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com/Bike27a.html

The 650b on front is clearly the wave of the future!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

* * Chas said:

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
with 650b tires.

Who?

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

* * Chas said:

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
with 650b tires.

Who?

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

-tom

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> with 650b tires.

Who?

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

-tom

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).

Yes I was aware of that, but thought his thread was leaning against
touring on smaller wheels other than 700c or 27".
But one other thing that you probably already know is 584mm/650B
is known as 26 x 1 1/2 and is very common in France for touring bikes.
-tom

* * Chas said:

The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one brand
that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on eBay
now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...

That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

Doesn't have canti BO's.

Roberts, if you wanted to spend more than your stated $400, might
still build "anything" as they did in days of yore.

Quoted message said:

Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.

Yup, they made frames with cantis and BO's everywhere. And still (BTW,
eye candy follows) do:

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_king_mercia.asp

Holdsworth also. My old Super Mistral, similar to the Roberts Club,
was not the equal in metal work to the Roberts, but rode (rides, still
have that one) very well, had nice paint when new <g>.

Bob Jackson, another "real custom" builder.

So, some names to look for. Trek is good, I had one of their early
ones, too.

Canti brake compatibility with changing between 27"/700c wheel sizes
might be an issue; no personal experience but you might google here
for info as I do remember some rbt discussion on this topic. --D-y

Gary Young said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> with 650b tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who?

Quoted message said:

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

-tom

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-

That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
guy.

Tom Nakashima said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>> with 650b tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Who?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-tom

Quoted message said:

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).

Yes I was aware of that, but thought his thread was leaning against
touring on smaller wheels other than 700c or 27".
But one other thing that you probably already know is 584mm/650B
is known as 26 x 1 1/2 and is very common in France for touring bikes.

Something to keep in mind when you are touring in France.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one

brand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on

eBay

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...

Quoted message said:

That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

"understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any color
you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)

We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was importing
the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of any
European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and geometry
was always "spot on" too.

Quoted message said:

Doesn't have canti BO's.

That was the only one currently on eBay. The OP seemed to indicate that
they were looking for an older frame.

Quoted message said:

Roberts, if you wanted to spend more than your stated $400, might
still build "anything" as they did in days of yore.

Quoted message said:

Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.

Yup, they made frames with cantis and BO's everywhere. And still (BTW,
eye candy follows) do:

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_king_mercia.asp

Holdsworth also. My old Super Mistral, similar to the Roberts Club,
was not the equal in metal work to the Roberts, but rode (rides, still
have that one) very well, had nice paint when new <g>.

Bob Jackson, another "real custom" builder.

I didn't mention Bob Jackson because the brazing and alignment on some of
them was terrible. They had some of the nicest paint jobs from that era.
New BJs seem to be much better made. I've had my eye on one at a LBS for a
while.

Quoted message said:

So, some names to look for. Trek is good, I had one of their early
ones, too.

Canti brake compatibility with changing between 27"/700c wheel sizes
might be an issue; no personal experience but you might google here
for info as I do remember some rbt discussion on this topic. --D-y

Chas.

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>> with 650b tires.

Quoted message said:

> Who?

Quoted message said:

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

Quoted message said:

-tom

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-

That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
guy.

He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
A very serious individual who puts out a good product.
-tom

Gary Young said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
(using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
town.

Quoted message said:

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and
the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

Gary Young said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
town.

Quoted message said:

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and
the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

Gary Young said:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made
>> with 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to
>> 700C. That was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably
>> true of the 720 of that era. It's fairly easy to convert old
>> bikes with caliper brakes (using drop bolts or longer-reach
>> brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a different matter.
>> There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your choices
>> are pretty meager.

Quoted message said:

>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>> bikes.

Quoted message said:

> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires
> in a hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When
> you get home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the
> web if not in town.

Quoted message said:

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels
between bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that
I use with a couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry
a spare folding tire if going on an extended tour.

Quoted message said:

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do
sell a couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C
tires will soon become available on the Walmart, Target,
hardware-store circuit and the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade
in importance.

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to
find tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're
better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Never too skinny ?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Matt O'Toole said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to
find tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're
better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

If I was going to do an around-the-world tour I'd do it on 26" wheels,
you can get tires in that size practically everywhere on the planet.
Might not be the best quality, but they'd keep you rolling.

Quoted message said:

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore.

Absolutely correct but totally unimportant. It's not how many you
would find that's important, it's where you would find them. In fact,
a hardware store will only have one or maybe two, but one is all you
need, and it it will be a very usable tire, 27 by 1-1/4, made for
commuting, not light, but not too heavy for serious use, either, with
a straight flat rib down the center. You know the tire.

I am not talking about Walmart or Target. Those are in towns which
have a bike shop.

Quoted message said:

You could 20 years
ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels

Wrong. I have double checked this in recent years. Go in a hardware
store yourself and see, they have the same or nearly the same
assortment of tires that they always did, which includes a 27" or two
but no 700.

Doug