CKD

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's all so much horseshit, if you ask me. Cardio's essentially
irrelevant

You are probably in a better position than I am to say that.

Quoted message said:

to establishing ketosis--you can get into ketosis after a few days
without carbs if you do nothing but sit on your fat ass. Depletion
workouts are to deplete *muscle* glycogen, and they aren't cardio.
BodyOpus did the

*muscle* glycogen? I thought it's liver glycogen.

Nope. Liver glycogen determines ketosis and is, so far as I'm aware,
determined by whether you're eating carbs. Muscle glycogen determines what
kind of energy stores you have in your muscles for immediate use. That's
what's getting depleted in depletion workouts and supercompensated in
carb-ups.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

depletion workouts right before the carb-up so you could
supercompensate-- UD2.0 does them at the beginning of the cycle so you
can spend a few days living with depleted muscle glycogen, doing cardio
while in a metabolic state which favors burning fat.

It's not clear that being in ketosis actually matters for fat burning
at all.

I would not say it's nonsense until I really try it out. I will come out
a routine and diet and stick to it for a while. I may be able to cut my
bodyfat below 10%.

I am confused when I first read about CKD and I still am. Guess I need
more reading.

You're confused because different experts say different things--cf the
placing of depletion workouts in UD2 and BodyOpus. By all means try it
out, but I'd choose one expert's scheme and stick to it as opposed to
mixing and matching on your own.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

>
> well, yeah. Your question was about which excercises to do to get
> into ketosis. My suggestion of adding cardio is still valid. Yeah,
> cardio will burn the fat while on a ckd diet. Nothing wrong with
> that is there? Adding cardio and doing your normal workout while on
> ckd is the best way I know of to burn fat and maintain lbm gains.
>
>

I understand cardio is very important to CKD and the purpose is to
establish kentosis.

What I don't understand is why a normal workout routine does lifting
on Mon, Tue and cardio on Wed, Thursday, depletion workout on Friday
. Why not on Mon, Wed, Fri? Am I missing something here?

-fj

It's all so much horseshit, if you ask me. Cardio's essentially
irrelevant to establishing ketosis--you can get into ketosis after a
few days without carbs if you do nothing but sit on your fat ass.
Depletion workouts are to deplete *muscle* glycogen, and they aren't
cardio. BodyOpus did the depletion workouts right before the carb-up
so you could supercompensate-- UD2.0 does them at the beginning of
the cycle so you can spend a few days living with depleted muscle
glycogen, doing cardio while in a metabolic state which favors
burning fat.

It's not clear that being in ketosis actually matters for fat burning
at all.

Hugh

Calorie deficit = fat loss. Pretty simply isn't it? How you create
that deficit (either by cardio and eating the same, or simply reducing
your calories and not doing cardio) doesn't matter.

Err, sort of. Calorie deficit = weight loss, mostly, averaged over time.
Where that weight comes from is the interesting question.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Suze" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting fj:

Quoted message said:

I understand cardio is very important to CKD and the purpose is to
establish
kentosis.

No.

Quoted message said:

What I don't understand is why a normal workout routine does lifting on
Mon,
Tue and cardio on Wed, Thursday, depletion workout on Friday .

Friday ? No, not unless your work week happens to be structured in a
non-standard fashion.

Depletion workout would be done on Monday, or Mon/Tues if split.
Wed off.
Thurs evening tension workout (or Friday).
Saturday power workout.
(above is pretty much the UD 2.0 scheme if I recall correctly, other
plans may vary a bit)

Now, following that general schedule -- personally, I'd sandwich
cardio (if any) between depletion and tension workouts. After power
workout, it's best to rest -- no cardio. And, I wouldn't do cardio
right before the power workout either.

Quoted message said:

Why not on Mon, Wed, Fri? Am I missing something here?

One doesn't even necessarily have to do cardio on a CKD. Also,
ketosis is more a side effect from following a low-carb, calorie
restricted plan during the week than anything else.

The depletion workout is used to deplete muscle glycogen. Cardio can
be used during the week to help create an additional calorie deficit
and/or for CV conditioning. Alternatively, one can just eat less.

Thanks Suze.

Here is what I figured out.

Since everyone has a different theory as to what makes this work, it would
be helpful to reference the source for your "figuring out".

Quoted message said:

Actually Monday Tuesday workouts are tension workout. Yes they are to
deplete muscle glycogen to under 70mmol/kg level.

Wednesday Thursday no workout is necessary due to the fact that the body
is in ketosis and burning fat only.

Friday workout is also for depletion. It's to reduce glycogen to an even
lower level. A carb-up immediately after workout will archieve a
super-compensation which feeds and grows the muscle.

Depletion workouts are pretty low weight. If you don't have a high-
intensity workout in there somewhere you'll be burning muscle and I don't
care how much ketosis you're in.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

Hugh Beyer said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

>>
>> well, yeah. Your question was about which excercises to do to get
>> into ketosis. My suggestion of adding cardio is still valid. Yeah,
>> cardio will burn the fat while on a ckd diet. Nothing wrong with
>> that is there? Adding cardio and doing your normal workout while
>> on ckd is the best way I know of to burn fat and maintain lbm
>> gains.
>>
>>
>
> I understand cardio is very important to CKD and the purpose is to
> establish kentosis.
>
> What I don't understand is why a normal workout routine does
> lifting on Mon, Tue and cardio on Wed, Thursday, depletion workout
> on Friday . Why not on Mon, Wed, Fri? Am I missing something here?
>
> -fj
>
>

It's all so much horseshit, if you ask me. Cardio's essentially
irrelevant to establishing ketosis--you can get into ketosis after a
few days without carbs if you do nothing but sit on your fat ass.
Depletion workouts are to deplete *muscle* glycogen, and they aren't
cardio. BodyOpus did the depletion workouts right before the carb-up
so you could supercompensate-- UD2.0 does them at the beginning of
the cycle so you can spend a few days living with depleted muscle
glycogen, doing cardio while in a metabolic state which favors
burning fat.

It's not clear that being in ketosis actually matters for fat
burning at all.

Hugh

Calorie deficit = fat loss. Pretty simply isn't it? How you create
that deficit (either by cardio and eating the same, or simply
reducing your calories and not doing cardio) doesn't matter.

Err, sort of. Calorie deficit = weight loss, mostly, averaged over
time. Where that weight comes from is the interesting question.

Hugh

Well, if you're exercising to maintain muscle and consuming enough protein,
what does it matter where your other calories come from? At that point,
isn't it just a numbers game...calories in vs. calories out? Obviously,
you'll lose muscle mass along with fat when running a deficit. Are you
saying that it does matter? I understand the basic concept of ketosis. I
just didn't think it made much difference in the long run, and boiled down
to cal in vs. cal out. Maybe I'm wrong. There's a first time for
everything... 🙂
--
-Larry

fj said:

Quoted message said:

well, yeah. Your question was about which excercises to do to get into
ketosis. My suggestion of adding cardio is still valid. Yeah, cardio will
burn the fat while on a ckd diet. Nothing wrong with that is there?
Adding cardio and doing your normal workout while on ckd is the best way I
know of to burn fat and maintain lbm gains.

I understand cardio is very important to CKD and the purpose is to establish
kentosis.

What I don't understand is why a normal workout routine does lifting on Mon,
Tue and cardio on Wed, Thursday, depletion workout on Friday . Why not on
Mon, Wed, Fri? Am I missing something here?

Honestly, I have just been cutting on ckd and it has bene working fine.
I mainly used the suggested workout as a guide but basically do my own
thing. I think that provided you get into ketosis and workout you are
90% there. The suggested workout seems to be more finetuning but hasn't
it been everbody's experience that that is more individual specific?

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer wrote:
> "fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
>
>>>
>>> well, yeah. Your question was about which excercises to do to get
>>> into ketosis. My suggestion of adding cardio is still valid. Yeah,
>>> cardio will burn the fat while on a ckd diet. Nothing wrong with
>>> that is there? Adding cardio and doing your normal workout while
>>> on ckd is the best way I know of to burn fat and maintain lbm
>>> gains.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I understand cardio is very important to CKD and the purpose is to
>> establish kentosis.
>>
>> What I don't understand is why a normal workout routine does
>> lifting on Mon, Tue and cardio on Wed, Thursday, depletion workout
>> on Friday . Why not on Mon, Wed, Fri? Am I missing something here?
>>
>> -fj
>>
>>
>
> It's all so much horseshit, if you ask me. Cardio's essentially
> irrelevant to establishing ketosis--you can get into ketosis after a
> few days without carbs if you do nothing but sit on your fat ass.
> Depletion workouts are to deplete *muscle* glycogen, and they aren't
> cardio. BodyOpus did the depletion workouts right before the carb-up
> so you could supercompensate-- UD2.0 does them at the beginning of
> the cycle so you can spend a few days living with depleted muscle
> glycogen, doing cardio while in a metabolic state which favors
> burning fat.
>
> It's not clear that being in ketosis actually matters for fat
> burning at all.
>
> Hugh

Calorie deficit = fat loss. Pretty simply isn't it? How you create
that deficit (either by cardio and eating the same, or simply
reducing your calories and not doing cardio) doesn't matter.

Err, sort of. Calorie deficit = weight loss, mostly, averaged over
time. Where that weight comes from is the interesting question.

Hugh

Well, if you're exercising to maintain muscle and consuming enough
protein, what does it matter where your other calories come from? At
that point, isn't it just a numbers game...calories in vs. calories out?
Obviously, you'll lose muscle mass along with fat when running a
deficit. Are you saying that it does matter? I understand the basic
concept of ketosis. I just didn't think it made much difference in the
long run, and boiled down to cal in vs. cal out. Maybe I'm wrong.
There's a first time for everything... 🙂

90% of my own knowledge comes from reading Lyle's stuff, so take this as
secondhand. His take is that ketosis doesn't much matter but there are
things you can do to skew your hormonal environment towards muscle
gain/retention and fat burning. E.g. when your muscle glycogen is depleted
your body puts hormonal markers into the bloodstream that encourage your
fat cells to give up fat, which is why he puts the depletion workout early
in the week, followed by low carb days. Or after an intense workout, your
body is in a state where it's more likely to suck up nutrients into muscle
building.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is what I figured out.

Since everyone has a different theory as to what makes this work, it would
be helpful to reference the source for your "figuring out".

Quoted message said:

Actually Monday Tuesday workouts are tension workout. Yes they are to
deplete muscle glycogen to under 70mmol/kg level.

Wednesday Thursday no workout is necessary due to the fact that the body
is in ketosis and burning fat only.

Friday workout is also for depletion. It's to reduce glycogen to an even
lower level. A carb-up immediately after workout will archieve a
super-compensation which feeds and grows the muscle.

Depletion workouts are pretty low weight. If you don't have a high-
intensity workout in there somewhere you'll be burning muscle and I don't
care how much ketosis you're in.

Hugh

I am talking about this article, not UD2.0.
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/training-on-ketogenic-diet.htm

Depletion workouts is low weight long duration. So on Friday it is a tension
workout with around 14 sets followed by a curcuits of exercises to failure.

Mon and Tuesday should be tension workout like normal. I was wrong in my
last post.

So, if that's the case it should be no difference if I move Tuesday workout
to Wednesday, isn't it?

Here is what I need to adjust my routine for a CKD.

* add Sunday 30-45 minute long intensity cardio to deplete glycogen.
* Mon, Wed, Fri workouts are the same except that Friday tension workout
followed by depletion workout. (this gonna be tough)
* Friday night and Saturday carb-up. (Happy hour)
* No carbs during the week except for Friday night and Saturday.

Any comments?

-fj

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is what I figured out.

Since everyone has a different theory as to what makes this work, it
would be helpful to reference the source for your "figuring out".

Quoted message said:

Actually Monday Tuesday workouts are tension workout. Yes they are to
deplete muscle glycogen to under 70mmol/kg level.

Wednesday Thursday no workout is necessary due to the fact that the
body is in ketosis and burning fat only.

Friday workout is also for depletion. It's to reduce glycogen to an
even lower level. A carb-up immediately after workout will archieve a
super-compensation which feeds and grows the muscle.

Depletion workouts are pretty low weight. If you don't have a high-
intensity workout in there somewhere you'll be burning muscle and I
don't care how much ketosis you're in.

Hugh

I am talking about this article, not UD2.0.
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/training-on-ketogenic-

diet.h

Quoted message said:

tm

OK. Looks like an older article--Lyle's been changing his terminology.

Quoted message said:

Depletion workouts is low weight long duration. So on Friday it is a
tension workout with around 14 sets followed by a curcuits of exercises
to failure.

You do see that it's *either* a tension *or* a depletion workout, right?
Not 14 sets followed by circuits to failure.

Quoted message said:

Mon and Tuesday should be tension workout like normal. I was wrong in my
last post.

So, if that's the case it should be no difference if I move Tuesday
workout to Wednesday, isn't it?

No, you want to get these workouts done as soon in the week as possible so
you spend the max amount of time burning fat.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

Quoted message said:

You do see that it's *either* a tension *or* a depletion workout, right?
Not 14 sets followed by circuits to failure.

Oops, my bad.

Quoted message said:

No, you want to get these workouts done as soon in the week as possible so
you spend the max amount of time burning fat.

Well, that's not critical right? If you did a pretty good depletion workout
on Sunday, by Tuesday you will be in kentosis. Wednesday is the same.

Guess my intension is to keep tension workouts evenly done during a week so
that muscle will have time to recover.

-fj

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You do see that it's *either* a tension *or* a depletion workout,
right? Not 14 sets followed by circuits to failure.

Oops, my bad.

Quoted message said:

No, you want to get these workouts done as soon in the week as possible
so you spend the max amount of time burning fat.

Well, that's not critical right? If you did a pretty good depletion
workout on Sunday, by Tuesday you will be in kentosis. Wednesday is the
same.

Guess my intension is to keep tension workouts evenly done during a week
so that muscle will have time to recover.

Muscles don't need time to recover from a depletion workout. Their point is
not as a training stimulus, it's just to get glycogen out of the muscle.
Once you've done that, your muscles notice they have no local energy stores
and start screaming for help. Your fat cells respond by dumping fat into the
bloodstream. You want this state to last as long as possible. So yeah, do
your second workout on wednesday if you don't care about how effective the
program is.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉