Circumcision as abuse

nahasafeemapetelan said:

Todd, as a former medical assistant, I agree with you that infant
circumcision is child abuse. I've wondered if that, along with
hormonal differences, of course, is what makes boys and girls
different from each other psychologically. Maybe even sets males up
for aggressive behavior later because they then have a need to defend
themselves by presenting a good offense. Anyway, those are just my
musings about it. I have watched a baby boy strapped to a board
scream and scream in pain. After witnessing one, I could not assist
my doctor with that procedure ever again. I think you're right that
at least unanesthetized circ should be considered criminal child
abuse. In the best situation, the procedure should be left to the
individual to make his own choice after the age of consent. I'm
afraid your wild rhetorical style will doom your effectiveness, but I
wish you the best in your quest.

Why don't they just freeze it with that ethyl-chloride [censored]?

In message said:

Coleah said:

From the perspective of an observant old grandma......
I've seen the benefits of circumcision for little boys through the years.
When they are babies it is much easier to keep them clean.

How could it possibly be easier? You don't do anything special with a
baby's uncirc'ed penis - just wash it off. I hope you're not
suggesting that you have to retract the foreskin to clean it - that can
injure a baby, since the foreskin isn't likely to be retractable that
that age.

One has to suspect that most of the issues with an intact penis are due to
the foreskin being forcibly retracted before it's ready. We have no trouble
keeping our son clean, as is common in Europe where proper care of
foreskins is a matter of routine.

Dave
--
mail: da [email hidden] (without the space)
http://www.llondel.org/
So many gadgets, so little time...

In message <[email hidden]>, Neal

nealUNDERSCOREsmithATrocketmailDOTcom said:

From their data, you would have to circumcise 100 boys to prevent 3.7
UTIs, and then one of the circumcised boys would get a UTI anyway.

You missed the stats on botched circumcisions. How many of that 100 would
have adhesions, too much skin removed, asymmetric removal, etc.

Dave
--
mail: da [email hidden] (without the space)
http://www.llondel.org/
So many gadgets, so little time...

"Neal" <nealUNDERSCOREsmithATrocketmailDOTcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/25/3606_1460?src=Inktomi&condition=News_and_Events

Quoted message said:

Try to find a less biased site next time. And do a long search, not a
brief one.
--
Neal

----------------------------------------------------
Well I searched and searched and searched !!
Found a few 'contra-theory websites'
(at the bottom of the list) that poo-pooed the
scientific study in the New England Journal of Medicine.

*****************************************
* Does circumcision reduce the risk of penile human
* papillomavirus (HPV) infection in a man
* and cervical cancer in his female partner?
*****************************************

http://www.medicirc.com/meditopics/cervical-cancer/more_info_cervical_cancer.html
In recent years the role of human papilloma virus (HPV) in both penile and
cervical cancer has been proven, and these cancers are now being thought of
as sexually transmitted diseases.

http://www.bhadt.com/Articles/benefitscircum.htm
Women whose male partners were uncircumcised and had high-risk sexual
behavior were two to five times more likely to develop cervical cancer. This
high rate of cancer was almost certainly caused by the high rate of HPV
infection in these men.

http://www.ashastd.org/news/042902.html
Among the research findings hitting the press in recent weeks:
Long-term oral contraceptive use has been shown to elevate the risk of
cervical cancer fourfold; and
Women with uncircumcised male partners may be more likely to develop
cervical cancer.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/14/News/News.46892.html
Circumcision found to reduce cervical cancer in partners

http://www.biomed.lib.umn.edu/hmed/2002/04/20020411_hpv.html
Study: Circumcised men less likely to transmit virus that causes cervical
cancer

http://bitmed.med.uchile.cl/pub/CancerNet/english/704185
circumcised men were less likely than uncircumcised men to have HPV
infection (odds ratio, 0.37; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.16 to 0.85).

http://womens-health.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2002/605/1
Comment: These findings show that circumcision is associated with a lowered
risk for penile HPV infection.

http://www.stopgettingsick.com/Conditions/condition_template.cfm/5338/83/1
Circumcised Men Less Likely to Get Virus Which Causes Cancer in Women

http://www.healthylife.com/365topics/chapter/221cutyo.htm
Cut Your Risk of Cervical Cancer

http://www.detnews.com/2002/health/0204/15/a05-462536.htm
Sex partners linked to cancer

http://www.futuretalk.org/02/quarter2/04111985.html
Circumcision cuts cervical cancer rates

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/23414/22002/348499.html
However, he said circumcision could make a big difference in developing
countries where there is no regular screening for cervical cancer.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?va=cervical+cancer+uncircumcised&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&xargs=&fr=fp-tab-web-t&b=41
National Cervical Cancer Coalition
Foreskins, Cervix Cancer Linked

http://faculty.washington.edu/momus/PB/cervical.htm
CERVICAL NEOPLASIA
Uncircumcised male sexual partners (in a study pooling data from 5
case-control studies

http://www.dmacgroup.com/circumcision.htm
dMAC Asia Insurance Review
Male Circumcision is Found to Reduce Cervical Cancer

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/women/2002-04-11-cervical.htm
Circumcision lowers risk of cervical cancer

http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar03feb-11.pdf
Low incidence of cervical cancer in Jewish women: Has the puzzle finally
been solved?

http://www.africast.com/health_article.php?newsID=3249
Women who have sex with a circumcised man have lower rates of cervical
cancer, scientists have found.
They also suggest men themselves are less likely to develop genital warts.

http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256B980048A15B
Uncircumcised Men Raise Partners' Cervical Cancer Risk

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/346/15/1105
New England Journal of Medicine
Conclusions: Male circumcision is associated with a reduced risk of penile
HPV infection and, in the case of men with a history of multiple sexual
partners, a reduced risk of cervical cancer in their current female
partners.

http://www.hepatitisandhiv.com/recent/ois/041202c.html
Circumcision Reduces Risk of Penile HPV Infection, Cervical Cancer in
Partners

http://www.everybody.co.nz/research/infect_circum.htm
New Zealand Health Board
Male circumcision and reduced cervical cancer risk

http://www.cancerq.com/_disc1/00000011.htm
HIV AND CANCER

http://www.personalmd.com/news/n0411075515.shtml
Foreskins, Cervix Cancer Linked

http://www.metromedicine.com/medicaltopicsinthenewspast.html
Circumcised men less likely to get virus which causes cancer in women
(APApril 11):
A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that women
whose sex partners were circumcised are less likely to get cervical cancer.
Cervical cancer is related to the presence of the human papillomavirus which
may be carried more easily in the foreskins of uncircumcised men.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/3038951.htm
The Miami Herald
Sex with uncircumcised partners may raise risk of cervical cancer

http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/110402cancer.html
British United Provident Association
Circumcision reduces risk of cervical cancer

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/04/11/MN173770.DTL
Circumcision hinders cervical cancer, study finds

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/aitken-swan1/
Support for the circumcision hypothesis is found in the lower frequency of
cancer of the cervix in other populations who practice circumcision when
compared with populations who do not.

http://www.planetaislam.com/praktyka/benefits_of_circumcision.html
In a study of 5000 cervical and 300 penile cancer cases in Madras between
1982 and 1990 the incidence was low amongst Muslim women, when compared with
Hindu and Christian, and was not seen at all in Muslim men [22] . In a
case-control study of 1107 Indian women with cervical cancer, sex with
uncircumcised men or those circumcised after the age of 1 year was reported
in 1993 to be associated with a 4-fold higher risk of cervical cancer, after
controlling for factors such as age, age of first intercourse and education.

http://www.zawaj.com/articles/benefits_circum.html
Cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men

http://www.canoe.ca/Health0204/10_circumcision-cp.html
Women whose sex partners are circumcised appear to be less likely to develop
cervical cancer, according to a large international study

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:51978619&refid=ink_overture_ref_news
Sex with uncircumcised men increases cervical cancer risk

http://www.oncolink.com/types/article.cfm?c=6&s=17&ss=129&id=8226
There also seems to be slightly increased risk of developing cervical cancer
if your male sexual partners are uncircumcised.

http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/bbc_cancer.htm
Circumcision 'curbs cervical cancer risk'

http://www.cancerpage.com/cancernews/cancernews4192.htm
Man's Circumcision May Cut Partner's Cancer Risk

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992157
Circumcision cuts cervical cancer rates

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/25/3606_1460?src=Inktomi&condition=News_and_Events
Circumcision Protects Female Partner

http://www.themodernreligion.com/science/circumcision.htm
A number of studies have documented higher rates of cervical cancer in women
who have had one or more male sexual partners who were uncircumcised.

http://www.state.nj.us/health/chs/monthlyfactsheets/jan04cervical.pdf
Center For Health Statistics
Risk factors: Intercourse at early age, multiple partners, intercourse with
an uncircumcised male.

http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2003/Sep/vol49-sep-critical-1.asp
Circumcision is associated with reduced risk of cervical cancer in women
with high-risk sexual partners (intercourse before age 17, six or more
sexual partners, and history of contact with prostitutes)

http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/maagm/PPSlides/lect_5sp00/tsld023.htm
less related factors: uncircumcised male partners

http://www.bio.miami.edu/dywang/MaleCircumcisionfoundlinkedtoFemaleCervicalCancer.html
Male Circumcision Is Found to Reduce Cervical Cancer

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s586954.htm
A new study in the New England Journal of Medicine says women have an
increased risk of cervical cancer if their partners are not circumcised.
Why? It seems uncircumcised men are more likely to transmit human papilloma
virus (HPV) and, worldwide, HPV is the cause of 99 per cent of cervical
cancers in women.

http://dermatology.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2002/514/1?ijkey=744tmQnqQFz5k&keytype=ref&siteid=jnlwatch
Male Circumcision and Female Cervical Cancer

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/04/11/1018333399263.html
Uncircumcised men linked to cancer risk in female partners

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020701/tips/8.html
American Family Physician
Does Male Circumcision Prevent Cervical Cancer in Women?
The authors conclude that circumcision is associated with a lower rate of
penile HPV infection and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female
partners of men with higher numbers of lifetime partners.

http://www.malaya.com.ph/aug17/livi2.htm
Women who are at high risk of developing cervical cancer are those who
engage in sexual activity one year after menstruation, those with multiple
sex partners, those with sexually transmitted disease, cigarette smokers,
those with HIV, those with male partners who are highly promiscuous,
uncircumcised, with penile or prostatic cancer, or previously married to a
woman with cervical cancer.

http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/041502/tec_LA0411-1.shtml
Circumcised men less likely to carry deadly virus

http://www.rho.org/html/cxca-b-02.html
Primary prevention of cervical cancer
Castellsague, X. et al. Male circumcision, penile human papillomavirus
infection, and cervical cancer in female partners. New England Journal of
Medicine 346(15):1105-1112 (2002).

http://www.pcrm.org/issues/Medicine_and_Society_Curriculum/med_soc_curr_3.html
The human papilloma virus, believed to contribute to cervical cancer, is
found more often in uncircumcised men.

http://www.saremhospital.com/Cervical%20Cancer.htm
There also seems to be slightly increased risk of developing cervical cancer
if your male sexual partners are uncircumcised.

http://www.nocirc.org/position/cps.html#cerv
Overall, no specific cause-and-effect relation between exposure to
uncircumcised sexual partners and cervical cancer has been established.80

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/med-argu.htm
It has been suggested that circumcision prevents cancer of the penis and of
the uterine cervix.

[email hidden] (Johanne) wrote in message

Yes I was traumatized when I had my nails clipped.

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How can it be anything other than abuse? The physical mutilation, the
severe emotional and mental stress the child is placed under, are all
quite clearly a disturbing form of abuse.

If the child's health/life depended on it, then it would be
understandable.

What would you call it if someone came up to you and briefly informed
you (if they even bothered!) that they were going to cut a part of you
away from yourself? Because THEY had decided it would be best for you.
I cant imagine what a child must feel as all this is going on,
strangers cutting away at his body, removing a part of who he is,
whilst mummy and/or daddy are standing there watching? How messed up
is that?

That leads to the very good point you raise that this could well then
lead that child to grow up more aggressively as a form of protection
and prevention of that happening again.

Then the emotional issues for later on in life....it's truly
appalling.

Johanne-

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 04:47:26 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Neal" <nealUNDERSCOREsmithATrocketmailDOTcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/25/3606_1460?src=Inktomi&condition=News_and_Events

Quoted message said:

Try to find a less biased site next time. And do a long search, not a
brief one.
--
Neal

----------------------------------------------------
Well I searched and searched and searched !!
Found a few 'contra-theory websites'
(at the bottom of the list) that poo-pooed the
scientific study in the New England Journal of Medicine.

But you found mostly web sites reporting on the 2002 NEJM, repeating
what they had read, but offering nothing new. The few others I have
NOT snipped out below.

Quoted message said:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/346/15/1105

The abstract of the report itself:

Quoted message said:

New England Journal of Medicine
Conclusions: Male circumcision is associated with a reduced risk of penile
HPV infection and, in the case of men with a history of multiple sexual
partners, a reduced risk of cervical cancer in their current female
partners.

This goes against the previous studies. There was a study done in the
US in about 1948, surveying women hospitalized for cervical cancer
against all other women hospitalized at the same time. As published,
it seemed to show that circumcision protected a woman from cancer.
But as soon as it was published, the methodology was challenged. The
circumcision status of the men had been established by asking their
wives. They were forced to go back, find the women, find their
husbands, and ascertain the true circumcision status of the husbands.
(Remember, this was the late 40s). Correcting the data, there was no
correlation between cervical cancer and lack of circumcision. But the
original publication had been made, and you still find pre-2002
references like "there are reports that circumcision prevents cervical
cancer."

Back to the 2002 study.

How much reduced? If it is much (if any), have you ever wondered why
no one has ever noticed a difference in cervical cancer rates between
say Germany (circumcision approximately less than 10%) or France
(about the same) and the US (circumcision rate of adult males about
70% or greater). You would think someone would notice, wouldn't you?

Let's go for a moment to Uganda, where the famous "Ugandan Truckers
Study" was done. This study purported to find that being
uncircumcised increased the chance of getting HIV by about 3.3. This
was cited as evidence that circumcision prevented AIDS. I go to this
study because it was one of the few that gathered data on religion.
No one talks about it, but the portion of the population that was not
Christian or Muslim had about a 3.8 greater chance of becoming HIV
positive. Now that is a striking finding. Of course all the Muslim
men were circumcised. Virtually all the circumcised men in Uganda are
Muslim.

Note that both the Christian and Muslim religions teach faithfulness
to one's spouse. In addition, Muslims are particularly fastidious
about personal hygiene, especially prior to having sex.

Think these things might have had something to do about the 3.8 to one
ratio?

Back to Spain, where the 2002 NEJM study was done. It was a meta
study, combining data from five countries: Spain, Colombia, Brazil,
Thailand, and the Philippines.

Virtually no one in Columbia or Brazil is circumcised. In Spain and
Thailand, about the only men who are circumcised are Muslim.
Circumcision exists outside the Muslim community in the Philippines,
but still the majority of circumcised men are Muslim.

Do you start to see a connection?

I don't think the 2002 Spanish study will stand.

The few links that were not reporting the results of the NEJM article:
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.medicirc.com/meditopics/cervical-cancer/more_info_cervical_cancer.html

Dr. Schoen's site.

....

Quoted message said:

http://www.planetaislam.com/praktyka/benefits_of_circumcision.html

Brian Morris' site

....

Quoted message said:

http://www.zawaj.com/articles/benefits_circum.html

Brian Morris again
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/science/circumcision.htm

Brian Morris again
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.state.nj.us/health/chs/monthlyfactsheets/jan04cervical.pdf

No cite given.. Bald statement
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/maagm/PPSlides/lect_5sp00/tsld023.htm

No cite given. Bald statement
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s586954.htm

reports the NEJM article, implies that Brian Morris is an MD.

....
http://familydoctor.org/x2276.xml
does not recommend circumcision
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.pcrm.org/issues/Medicine_and_Society_Curriculum/med_soc_curr_3.html

References footnote 2, which reads: 2. Anonymous. Fact sheet for
physicians regarding neonatal circumcision. Am Fam Physician
1995;52(2):523-6.

This is no longer found on their web site.

Quoted message said:

http://www.nocirc.org/position/cps.html#cerv

Overall, no specific cause-and-effect relation between exposure to
uncircumcised sexual partners and cervical cancer has been
established.80
....

Quoted message said:

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/med-argu.htm
It has been suggested that circumcision prevents cancer of the penis and of
the uterine cervix.

Yes, they did say that, but it was in this context:

" The foreskin does not cause penile cancer. In a letter to the
American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Cancer Society stated
that it "does not consider routine circumcision to be a valid or
effective measure to prevent [penile or cervical] cancers. ...Penile
cancer rates in countries which do not practice circumcision are lower
than those found in the U.S." Penile cancer occurs at the rate of 1
in 100,000 males in the U.S. circumcised or not.

Risk factors for penile and cervical cancer are the presence of the
human papilloma virus and smoking. The HPV virus is found in both
circumcised and uncircumcised men. "Portraying routine circumcision as
an effective means of prevention distracts the public from the task of
avoiding the behaviors proven to contribute to penile and cervical
cancer: especially cigarette smoking and unprotected sexual relations
with multiple partners. Perpetuating the mistaken belief that
circumcision prevents cancer is inappropriate." ...

"It has been suggested that circumcision prevents cancer of the penis
and of the uterine cervix. Both kinds of cancer are associated with
genital infection with specific types of human papillamoviruses. It
has been alleged that cancer of the penis is virtually unknown among
men circumcised in infancy. However penile carcinomas have in fact
been reported among circumcised men. The incidence of cancer of
the penis in the United States, where most men have been circumcised
at birth, is reported to be between 0 and 2.1 per 100,000,
representing less than 1 percent of all cancers in men. This incidence
of penile cancer is similar to the rates in Denmark (1.1 per 100,0000
and Japan (0.3 per 100,0000 where neonatal circumcision is not
routinely performed. One study, reporting contradictory data, claimed
that the lifetime risk in American men is 1 in 600. This estimate was
extrapolated from a study of the incidence of male circumcision and
depended on three incorrect assumptions: that all penile carcinomas
occur in men who are not circumcised at birth, that the circumcision
rate between 1890 and 1905 was the same as that in 1959, and that men
presenting at a cancer detection center in Los Angeles, 40 percent
of whom were classified as professionals or managers, were
representative of the U.S. male population. Thus the lifetime risk of
cancer reported in this study is probably incorrect. The evidence that
penile cancer has a viral cause and the disease's similar incidence
rates in countries with very different rates of circumcision cast
doubt on the proposition that circumcision is the most effective way
to prevent cancer of the penis." THE QUESTION OF ROUTINE NEONATAL
CIRCUMCISION, by Ronald L. Poland, M. D., THE NEW ENGLAND
JOURNAL OF MEDICINE, Vol. 322, No. 18 (May 3, 1990), Pages 1312-1315.

--
Neal

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