Cioni's high hematocrit

Warren said:

Interesting information about how the high hematocrit levels are established
for certain riders.

More detail is at...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct25news

"...I went to Lausanne, where I was monitored for three days. During this
period of time, several blood samples were taken. After all this info was
analysed, I received the certificate from UCI. Of course the certificate
contains a limit, but it is a personal limit according to my natural level,
not the 50 limit, which is used for the whole world. I think this is an
issue that should be analysed more deeply, as not every rider has the same
value, so why is there a 50 percent limit for everyone?"

So, test each rider in this way and each gets their own certificate? Then
they can't use EPO to go higher than their own natural level.

-WG

Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?

http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren said:

Interesting information about how the high hematocrit levels are

established

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for certain riders.

More detail is at...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct25news

"...I went to Lausanne, where I was monitored for three days. During

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

period of time, several blood samples were taken. After all this info

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

analysed, I received the certificate from UCI. Of course the certificate
contains a limit, but it is a personal limit according to my natural

level,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not the 50 limit, which is used for the whole world. I think this is an
issue that should be analysed more deeply, as not every rider has the

same

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

value, so why is there a 50 percent limit for everyone?"

So, test each rider in this way and each gets their own certificate?

Then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they can't use EPO to go higher than their own natural level.

-WG

Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?

http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me that
even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's wasn't
enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are other
benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a week
or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two weeks
after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short period of
time).

-WG

Warren said:

Interesting information about how the high hematocrit levels are established
for certain riders.

More detail is at...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct25news

"...I went to Lausanne, where I was monitored for three days. During this
period of time, several blood samples were taken. After all this info was
analysed, I received the certificate from UCI. Of course the certificate
contains a limit, but it is a personal limit according to my natural level,
not the 50 limit, which is used for the whole world. I think this is an
issue that should be analysed more deeply, as not every rider has the same
value, so why is there a 50 percent limit for everyone?"

So, test each rider in this way and each gets their own certificate? Then
they can't use EPO to go higher than their own natural level.

-WG

Thing is, this is getting to the point where enormous amts of time and
expense is involved getting these guys metabolic and serologic passports.

Incidently, not sure why, or if it helps me or what, b/c I've never been
trained even -near- that of a pro athlete. I'm strictly middle of the pack,
body builder type, but my Hct is typically about 49-51%. I give blood now
and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this b/c they don't
menstruate), which is now thought to be a problem for some. I'm not
dehydrated at all, and have no earthly idea why my hct would be so high. Uh
this was true in the day. I'm not sure what it is now. Maybe I'll go donate
and have it checked, lol.

-B

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Incidently, not sure why, or if it helps me or what, b/c I've never been
trained even -near- that of a pro athlete. I'm strictly middle of the

pack,

Quoted message said:

body builder type, but my Hct is typically about 49-51%. I give blood now
and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this b/c they don't
menstruate), which is now thought to be a problem for some. I'm not
dehydrated at all, and have no earthly idea why my hct would be so high.

It's not abnormal. If you trained really hard (in an endurance sport like
cycling) it's likely that your hct would be lower as as result.

-WG

Warren said:

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren said:

Interesting information about how the high hematocrit levels are

established

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for certain riders.

More detail is at...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct25news

"...I went to Lausanne, where I was monitored for three days. During

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

period of time, several blood samples were taken. After all this info

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

analysed, I received the certificate from UCI. Of course the certificate
contains a limit, but it is a personal limit according to my natural

level,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not the 50 limit, which is used for the whole world. I think this is an
issue that should be analysed more deeply, as not every rider has the

same

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

value, so why is there a 50 percent limit for everyone?"

So, test each rider in this way and each gets their own certificate?

Then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they can't use EPO to go higher than their own natural level.

-WG

Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?

http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me that
even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's wasn't
enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are other
benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a week
or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two weeks
after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short period of
time).

-WG

Yeah, I'm all for the idea that maybe there is something other than
'crit that is affected by altitude. I always feel bulletproof for 2
weeks or so, 2-3 weeks after a week at altitude, but I don't have the
means nor the reason to find out if my 'crit is higher or not.

But if you're a pro, and you are close, why risk it? Why did Cioni get
his permit, while Hermida is facing sanctions (is he? whatever happened
to that story?)?

Warren said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Incidently, not sure why, or if it helps me or what, b/c I've never been
trained even -near- that of a pro athlete. I'm strictly middle of the

pack,

Quoted message said:

body builder type, but my Hct is typically about 49-51%. I give blood now
and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this b/c they don't
menstruate), which is now thought to be a problem for some. I'm not
dehydrated at all, and have no earthly idea why my hct would be so high.

It's not abnormal. If you trained really hard (in an endurance sport like
cycling) it's likely that your hct would be lower as as result.

-WG

Maybe we shall see. I found the readings...

Date Hct (%) Training intensity
1980 - 48.8 above avg - (swim-bike-run, weight train, fight (40miles/wk
running, 20-30/wk in prev 3 years)
1990 - 47.5 moderate - (run, weight train 20 mile/wk running)
2000 - 43.6 low (didn't train at all from 1994 to 1999)
2000-02 ? low (trail biking intermittently <10 mi/wk)
2003 -04 ? moderate - (100-150mi/week bike. No running, mod weight
training as maintenence.)

Hmmm, though the trend seems to be lower hct, it's in inverse proportion to
intensity and endurance ability. Probably some other effect at work than
your comment, b/c you are correct in theory.

I'll get one next week, and again in summer, 2005. Dunno if I'm able to
train endurance 'hard' at 50, but I'm trying. I'm in the piedmont, so not
'altitude', though I got apparent, and noticeable improvement running in Va
Beach. Probably just wishful thinking, though, b/c my best 10K and 13.1
mile time there is best; mostly due to the flat. I did some training on
Skyline drive, though, lol, weekend athlete tries to copy the pros, back in
the 80s <g>

-B

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But if you're a pro, and you are close, why risk it? Why did Cioni get
his permit, while Hermida is facing sanctions (is he? whatever happened
to that story?)?

Cioni is apparently over the limit occasionally even without the effects of
altitude training. The blood test he had before Worlds where his hematocrit
was over the limit was more than a month after he did a week of altitude
training (that I know of). The article on cyclingnews discusses the
procedure that established his natural tendencies.

-WG

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Incidently, not sure why, or if it helps me or what, b/c I've never

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trained even -near- that of a pro athlete. I'm strictly middle of the

pack,

Quoted message said:

body builder type, but my Hct is typically about 49-51%. I give blood

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this b/c they don't
menstruate), which is now thought to be a problem for some. I'm not
dehydrated at all, and have no earthly idea why my hct would be so

high.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's not abnormal. If you trained really hard (in an endurance sport like
cycling) it's likely that your hct would be lower as as result.

-WG

Maybe we shall see. I found the readings...

Date Hct (%) Training intensity
1980 - 48.8 above avg - (swim-bike-run, weight train, fight (40miles/wk
running, 20-30/wk in prev 3 years)
1990 - 47.5 moderate - (run, weight train 20 mile/wk running)
2000 - 43.6 low (didn't train at all from 1994 to 1999)
2000-02 ? low (trail biking intermittently <10 mi/wk)
2003 -04 ? moderate - (100-150mi/week bike. No running, mod weight
training as maintenence.)

Hmmm, though the trend seems to be lower hct, it's in inverse proportion

to

Quoted message said:

intensity and endurance ability. Probably some other effect at work than
your comment, b/c you are correct in theory.

You said yours was 49-51 but all the data you've shown above is below that.

Mine is 48'ish in the middle of the season of hard training.

-WG

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:34 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?

http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me that
even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's wasn't
enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are other
benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a week
or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two weeks
after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short period of
time).

-WG

Yeah, I'm all for the idea that maybe there is something other than
'crit that is affected by altitude. I always feel bulletproof for 2
weeks or so, 2-3 weeks after a week at altitude, but I don't have the
means nor the reason to find out if my 'crit is higher or not.

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

-B

It is a risk worth taking when you know you can saline solution down to
under 50%... quite useful when you can go over 50% for a race without
failing an EPO test

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren said:

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren wrote:

>Interesting information about how the high hematocrit levels are

established

Quoted message said:

>for certain riders.
>
>
>More detail is at...
>
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct25news
>
>
>"...I went to Lausanne, where I was monitored for three days. During

this

Quoted message said:

>period of time, several blood samples were taken. After all this info

was

Quoted message said:

>analysed, I received the certificate from UCI. Of course the

certificate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>contains a limit, but it is a personal limit according to my natural

level,

Quoted message said:

>not the 50 limit, which is used for the whole world. I think this is an
>issue that should be analysed more deeply, as not every rider has the

same

Quoted message said:

>value, so why is there a 50 percent limit for everyone?"
>
>
>So, test each rider in this way and each gets their own certificate?

Then

Quoted message said:

>they can't use EPO to go higher than their own natural level.
>
>-WG
>
>

Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?

http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's

wasn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a

week

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two weeks
after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short

period of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time).

-WG

Yeah, I'm all for the idea that maybe there is something other than
'crit that is affected by altitude. I always feel bulletproof for 2
weeks or so, 2-3 weeks after a week at altitude, but I don't have the
means nor the reason to find out if my 'crit is higher or not.

But if you're a pro, and you are close, why risk it? Why did Cioni get
his permit, while Hermida is facing sanctions (is he? whatever happened
to that story?)?

Warren said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warren said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> Incidently, not sure why, or if it helps me or what, b/c I've never

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> trained even -near- that of a pro athlete. I'm strictly middle of the
pack,
> body builder type, but my Hct is typically about 49-51%. I give blood

now

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this b/c they don't
> menstruate), which is now thought to be a problem for some. I'm not
> dehydrated at all, and have no earthly idea why my hct would be so

high.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's not abnormal. If you trained really hard (in an endurance sport like
cycling) it's likely that your hct would be lower as as result.

-WG

Maybe we shall see. I found the readings...

Date Hct (%) Training intensity
1980 - 48.8 above avg - (swim-bike-run, weight train, fight (40miles/wk
running, 20-30/wk in prev 3 years)
1990 - 47.5 moderate - (run, weight train 20 mile/wk running)
2000 - 43.6 low (didn't train at all from 1994 to 1999)
2000-02 ? low (trail biking intermittently <10 mi/wk)
2003 -04 ? moderate - (100-150mi/week bike. No running, mod weight
training as maintenence.)

Hmmm, though the trend seems to be lower hct, it's in inverse proportion

to

Quoted message said:

intensity and endurance ability. Probably some other effect at work than
your comment, b/c you are correct in theory.

You said yours was 49-51 but all the data you've shown above is below that.

Mine is 48'ish in the middle of the season of hard training.

-WG

I had an Hct taken that was on record in 1980. The Hct was 48.8. I had
higher Hcts, but don't have an actual record on paper in front of me. Sorry
if that was confusing. I recall one, a 'spun' Hct being ~52 that we did one
time in the donor room, farting around, and that's accurate enough to
donate, but not as accurate as one run on a blood analyzer. You can run up
the stairs and then take your Hct again, and it will be up a point, btw. We
did that for certain apheresis donors where we had to qualify them, but we
were just taking plasma and plts and no blood, so technically they would be
under the limit, but that param was not critical.

The 48.8 was done in a clinical lab on a peripherally drawn blood sample
and put in my chart, iow. The other two are snapshots from Dr's office
visits. I just called the office since I had to make an appt for next week
and the kind lady told me.

But, whoa, if yours is 48ish, cool. Did that involve altitude training? Any
baseline pre-biking levels?

-B
LOL, so much for medical privacy over the phone. You could call her
(theoretically) and say 'this is Badger, can you tell me my Hct from 2000
again' ;->

Depends on the altitude that you spent living on all your life. (especially
when growing up)

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:34 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude

training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?
>
>http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's

wasn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a

week

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two

weeks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short

period of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time).

-WG

Yeah, I'm all for the idea that maybe there is something other than
'crit that is affected by altitude. I always feel bulletproof for 2
weeks or so, 2-3 weeks after a week at altitude, but I don't have the
means nor the reason to find out if my 'crit is higher or not.

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

-B

Badger South said:

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:34 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Right. What I don't understand is, why does he do the altitude training
>if he knows he's so close to 50 in the first place?
>
>http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=8%2F10%2F2004&lsectionnumber=3

I don't know exactly, but Dario and I have the same coach who told me that
even though the 6 days I spent at altitude during Masters Track Nat's wasn't
enough time to have much effect on my hematocrit level but there are other
benefits from being at altitude. He said that riders who have spent a week
or so at altitude often see some positive results about one to two weeks
after being at altitude (even though it was for a relatively short period of
time).

-WG

Yeah, I'm all for the idea that maybe there is something other than
'crit that is affected by altitude. I always feel bulletproof for 2
weeks or so, 2-3 weeks after a week at altitude, but I don't have the
means nor the reason to find out if my 'crit is higher or not.

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

my guess is that about 7000 feet would be a good place to start. That's
about where people complain about feeling the effects of altitude. I
spent three weeks in Colorado at 9-13,000 feet once, a week in Colorado
at 8-12,000 feet another time, and a long weekend in Idaho at about
8-9,000 feet. Each time I felt great after coming back, but the first
few days were hard, probably due to the tiredness from the whole
adventure. I didn't feel good until at least the following weekends.
The longest trip had me feeling good for about a month, starting a week
after returning. I was most surprised that I felt something from the
shortest trip.

Quoted message said:

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

I would prescribe a trip to northern Arizona for two weeks in late
April. Ride 2 out of every 4 days. Hike once every 4 days. Fly fish
on the rest days. Give yourself 1 week afterwards to recover and 1 more
week with intense riding to acclimate to sea level. Repeat as necessary.

Quoted message said:

-B

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:46:11 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger South said:

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:34 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

my guess is that about 7000 feet would be a good place to start. That's
about where people complain about feeling the effects of altitude. I
spent three weeks in Colorado at 9-13,000 feet once, a week in Colorado
at 8-12,000 feet another time, and a long weekend in Idaho at about
8-9,000 feet. Each time I felt great after coming back, but the first
few days were hard, probably due to the tiredness from the whole
adventure. I didn't feel good until at least the following weekends.
The longest trip had me feeling good for about a month, starting a week
after returning. I was most surprised that I felt something from the
shortest trip.

Quoted message said:

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

I would prescribe a trip to northern Arizona for two weeks in late
April. Ride 2 out of every 4 days. Hike once every 4 days. Fly fish
on the rest days. Give yourself 1 week afterwards to recover and 1 more
week with intense riding to acclimate to sea level. Repeat as necessary.

Super. Do you have a particular location? Well-known and safe bike route
for potentially dizzy riders, lol? (Heck, I'd probably get a bene from just
wandering around the hotel parking lot.)

Just like when we need to convince the wife we need a new bike.

Me: I have to go to northern arizona in april.
her: <gleefully clapping hands> Why, buttheed?
me: ...and I need a new bike
her: <frowny face> Why, buttheed? Totally different effect, same words.

-B
Where you going? Her: to arizona. Me: what about 'I' did you miss. <Ducking
and running.>

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But, whoa, if yours is 48ish, cool. Did that involve altitude training?

Any

Quoted message said:

baseline pre-biking levels?

No, and no.

-WG

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

No, you have to be over 5,000 feet and 6,000 is starters for most people.

Quoted message said:

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

If you're training on the Blue Ridge Parkway expect to see improvements that
have nothing to do with altitude - such as balls the size of basketballs
after fighting the traffic.

Tom Kunich said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean? IOW, I could go train
at 2400 to 3600ft elevation, on modest hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Would that be an advantage over sealevel to any meaningful degree?

No, you have to be over 5,000 feet and 6,000 is starters for most people.

Quoted message said:

Guess I could try that and report back, next spring. I have a ride
scheduled and could do a week or two in April/May.

If you're training on the Blue Ridge Parkway expect to see improvements that
have nothing to do with altitude - such as balls the size of basketballs
after fighting the traffic.

So, speaking of altitude training, us lowlanders with jobs can't just go to Colorado to live for the season. Has anyone out there tried or know anything about this? http://www.go2altitude.com/p1.html
Can you really sit on your ass watching TV and get a boost from this thing? If so, I am so all about sitting on my ass in front of the TV - after training, of course, mind you. I mean, really, I will have to actually do *some* work, right?

pedalchick said:

Tom Kunich said:

"Badger South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When you say training at altitude, what do you mean?

No, you have to be over 5,000 feet and 6,000 is starters for most
people.

If you're training on the Blue Ridge Parkway expect to see improvements
that have nothing to do with altitude - such as balls the size of
basketballs after fighting the traffic.

So, speaking of altitude training, us lowlanders with jobs can't just
go to Colorado to live for the season. Has anyone out there tried or
know anything about this? http://www.go2altitude.com/p1.html
Can you really sit on your ass watching TV and get a boost from this
thing? If so, I am so all about sitting on my ass in front of the TV -
after training, of course, mind you. I mean, really, I will have to
actually do *some* work, right?

At least one of the guys on a major team at UVa, here, who has his dorm
room converted into an altitude tent and lives there when he's not in
class. I forget which sport, maybe swimming? The team fixed it up for him
and bought the equipment and stuff, iow, he's not just doing it on his own.

Can't recall other specifics, like where he lives. Perhaps he normally
lives at altitude (colorado) and doesn't want to lose his altitude fitness
too much? not sure.

-B

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger South said:

I give blood now and then to try and reduce my iron load (men get this
b/c they don't menstruate),

Well, MOST don't. There are a few exceptions, of course...

--
tanx,
Howard

"It looks like the squirrel's been showing everybody
where he keeps his nuts."

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?