Chelation Therapy cont'd...

What result are they paid to find?

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

A fully funded 5 year study on the benefits of chelation
therapy in heart disease is being sponsored by the
American College for the Advancement of Medicine and the
National Institute for Health. It involves 2300 patients

in

Quoted message said:

100 different research centers. Interest came about
because 800,000 patient visits for chelation therapy
occurred in 1997 alone. When many, many people get a
positive result from something,

whether

Quoted message said:

alternative or Aspirin, it suggests something positive to
right-thinking people. The New England Journal of Medicine
acknowledges that there is no controversy over the use of
chelation therapy for the removal of toxic metals from the
body. The occurrence of unacceptable levels of lead in

human

Quoted message said:

tissue has been documented in numerous studies.This formed
the basis for ridding paints and gasolines of lead more
than a decade ago. The Harvard Public Health Laboratory
sponsored a study of blood and hair analysis of a group of
subjects to determine the heavy metal content in their
tissues. They found many things from dry cleaning
chemicals to solvents in all of the subjects. While it is
prudent to avoid exposure to toxic substances, the body
burden analysis of this study suggests that may not be
possible. Analysis of arteriosclerotic plaque from people
undergoing chelation therapy, shows toxic metal deposition
in the plaque. This is one of several ways to enhance the
detoxification of our bodies. It is an example of a
complemenary healing discipline that, when added to
traditional treatment, brings progress to reducing the
impact of disease.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM, but
it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

A fully funded 5 year study on the benefits of chelation
therapy in heart disease is being sponsored by the
American College for the Advancement of Medicine and the
National Institute for Health. It involves 2300 patients

in

Quoted message said:

100 different research centers. Interest came about
because 800,000 patient visits for chelation therapy
occurred in 1997 alone. When many, many people get a
positive result from something,

whether

Quoted message said:

alternative or Aspirin, it suggests something positive to
right-thinking people. The New England Journal of Medicine
acknowledges that there is no controversy over the use of
chelation therapy for the removal of toxic metals from the
body. The occurrence of unacceptable levels of lead in

human

Quoted message said:

tissue has been documented in numerous studies.This formed
the basis for ridding paints and gasolines of lead more
than a decade ago. The Harvard Public Health Laboratory
sponsored a study of blood and hair analysis of a group of
subjects to determine the heavy metal content in their
tissues. They found many things from dry cleaning
chemicals to solvents in all of the subjects. While it is
prudent to avoid exposure to toxic substances, the body
burden analysis of this study suggests that may not be
possible. Analysis of arteriosclerotic plaque from people
undergoing chelation therapy, shows toxic metal deposition
in the plaque. This is one of several ways to enhance the
detoxification of our bodies. It is an example of a
complemenary healing discipline that, when added to
traditional treatment, brings progress to reducing the
impact of disease.

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM,
but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the
medically trained perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his
hat on a thought that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
importance of the bigger picture. I work with physicians who
have learned that they must see the bigger picture in order
to receive the satisfaction of healing someone. The process
involves using traditional medicine to buy the time to heal
the patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this on a first
hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes the NEJM
is an associate of mine who has totally integrated holistic
medicine into is medical practise. He is a physician who is
now able to heal.

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

A fully funded 5 year study on the benefits of chelation
therapy in

heart

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease is being sponsored by the American College for
the Advancement

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Medicine and the National Institute for Health. It
involves 2300

patients

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

100 different research centers. Interest came about
because 800,000 patient visits for chelation therapy
occurred in 1997 alone. When many, many people get a
positive result from something,

whether

Quoted message said:

alternative or Aspirin, it suggests something positive
to right-thinking people. The New England Journal of
Medicine acknowledges that there is no controversy over
the use of chelation therapy for the removal of toxic
metals from the body. The occurrence of unacceptable
levels of lead in

human

Quoted message said:

tissue has been documented in numerous studies.This
formed the basis for ridding paints and gasolines of
lead more than a decade ago. The Harvard Public Health
Laboratory sponsored a study of blood and hair analysis
of a group of subjects to determine the heavy metal
content in their tissues. They found many things from
dry cleaning chemicals to solvents in all of the
subjects. While it is prudent to avoid exposure to toxic
substances, the body burden analysis

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this study suggests that may not be possible.
Analysis of

arteriosclerotic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

plaque from people undergoing chelation therapy, shows
toxic metal deposition in the plaque. This is one of
several ways to enhance the detoxification of our
bodies. It is an example of a complemenary healing
discipline that, when added to traditional treatment,
brings progress to reducing the impact of disease.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM,
but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the
medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a thought
that is totally irrelevant, and misses the importance of
the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a serious
threat to life and limb, and despite about fifty years of
usage, none of the "doctors" using it have been able to show
it having any objective effect upon the disease, despite the
ready availability of the appropriate technology. It was
always obvious that one of those "doctors" was responsible
for this piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned that they must see
the bigger picture in order to receive the satisfaction of
healing someone. The process involves using traditional
medicine to buy the time to heal the patient. The healing
process can't be completed until prescription is no longer
required. I know this on a first hand basis. The man who
wrote this piece and quotes the NEJM is an associate of
mine who has totally integrated holistic medicine into is
medical practise. He is a physician

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a
treatment that many have tried and found useless. Kadile was
caught becasue his patients were dying.

Peter Moran

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM,
but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the
medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded

Hey idiot, herin lies one of the sgnificant, nevermind.
You're busted posting a lie. Your an ineducable idiot who is
lost when confronted with the absurd realities of his posts.
You don't work with any physicians any more than my cleaning
lady works with me. You can't back the [censored] you've posted as
fact. I heard a rumour about you. Get it?

le m

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.a
u...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM,
but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between the
medically trained perspective and the open-minded
perspective of the holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his
hat on a thought that is totally irrelevant, and misses
the importance of the bigger picture.

And, apparently, you are willing to misrepresent the source
of a quote in order to further the "bigger picture."

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the
NEJM, but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between
the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the importance of
the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
serious threat to life and limb, and despite about fifty
years of usage, none of the "doctors" using it have been
able to show it having any objective effect upon the
disease, despite the ready availability of the appropriate
technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
responsible for this piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned that they must
see the bigger picture in order to receive the
satisfaction of healing someone. The process involves
using traditional medicine to buy the time to heal the
patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this on a
first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and quotes
the NEJM

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally integrated holistic
medicine into is medical practise. He is a physician

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a
treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue
his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that
chelation therapy removes heavy metals from the body. That
would suggest that it offers some benefit. While you seem to
prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see it
offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of physicians
and a substantial portion of the general population are
blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is
acceptable.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k
P.r.o.b.e.r.t [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering
it as an alternative to decisive coronary interventions,
e.g. CABG and stenting, when it offers no demonstrable
opening of coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves the poor
soul with a false sense of security, as they may 'feel
better' but the diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP
them with a massive fatal coronary occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the
miniscule amounts of heavy metals in the plaque may or
may not be beneficial. I have found no studies showing
that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

Any sort of IV treatment has the potential to do harm. There
can be infection from the site of the IV. There can be harm
from contaminated solutions, or the patient may have a bad
reaction to the substance being administered.

In other words, Spammin Dave, you have once again proved you
are a moron. You're saying that this decidedly non-cheap
treatment is just fine because *you* don't happen to know of
any bad results from it.

But since we have no evidence that it does any real good,
either, the only sensible course of action is to say "as
long as we're going to use ineffective treatments, let's use
ones that are a lot cheaper than multiple EDTA IVs."

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c95d54$0$20892$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> bal.com...
> > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
>
> This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the
> NEJM, but it is obviously written by a chelationist.
>
> Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between
the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the importance
of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none
of the "doctors" using it have been able to show it
having any objective effect upon the disease, despite
the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
responsible for this piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned that they must
see the bigger picture in order to receive the
satisfaction of healing someone. The process involves
using traditional medicine to buy the time to heal the
patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this on a
first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and
quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally integrated
holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a
treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue
his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that
chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see
it offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of
physicians and a substantial portion of the general
population are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a
proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering it
as an alternative to decisive coronary interventions, e.g.
CABG and stenting, when it offers no demonstrable opening of
coronary arteries. Thus, it leaves the poor soul with a
false sense of security, as they may 'feel better' but the
diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a massive
fatal coronary occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the
miniscule amounts of heavy metals in the plaque may or
may not be beneficial. I have found no studies showing
that it is.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that
chelation therapy removes heavy metals from the body. That
would suggest that it offers some benefit.

...for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use insulin
because of its usefulness in treating diabetes, does that
mean it will work on my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary
artery disease is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they
see it offering benefits.

...to their wallets, I'm sure.

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept your assumptions, we would
have to believe that 15% of physicians and a substantial
portion of the general population are blind, ignorant
imbeciles.

...no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see your
source for this apparent claim that 15% of medical doctors
prescribe or support chelation therapy for treatment of
atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c95d54$0$20892$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> bal.com...
> > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
>
> This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the
> NEJM, but it is obviously written by a chelationist.
>
> Where did you really get it, Dave?

Herein lies one of the significant differences between
the medically

trained

Quoted message said:

perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is totally irrelevant, and misses the importance
of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none
of the "doctors" using it have been able to show it
having any objective effect upon the disease, despite
the ready availability of the appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
responsible for this piece.

Quoted message said:

I work with physicians who have learned that they must
see the bigger picture in order to receive the
satisfaction of healing someone. The process involves
using traditional medicine to buy the time to heal the
patient. The healing process can't be completed until
prescription is no longer required. I know this on a
first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and
quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an associate of mine who has totally integrated
holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a
treatment that

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught becasue
his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that
chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they see
it offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of
physicians and a substantial portion of the general
population are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a
proposition that is acceptable.

Why not? There is so much that you do not know about
medicine, it is hard to know where to start to inform you,
assuming that is possible..

For over two thousand years physicians believed that
bleeding the patient could help cure many serious medical
conditions. Egyptian physicians were convinced that
crocodile dung in various orifices was a useful remedy, as
were fly specks scraped off the wall. If you look at the
history of all civilisations there is such a vast array of
healing ritiuals and unlikely remedies and superstitious
theories of illness as to make it absoluteley clear that
shamans and physicians are being misled all the time as to
the effects of their treatments.. "Doctors" are the very
worst, because they are more arrogant, yet superimpose yet
another layer of misperceptions and biases upon the many
that we know affect the patient.

That is before you throw in numerous pet remedies that have
been used on thousands ofpatients in the last century but
shown subsequently to work no better than sham treatments.
Doctors are wrong all the time.

And don't you understand that even with atherosclerotic
symptoms at least 15% of patients will feel improved from
placebo in hundreds of clinical trials, mostly from natural
variations in the progress of the illness?

Peter Moran.

Peter Moran

You are an ingenue within medicine if you do not know
about the many illusions that can produce a false
perception of effectiveness for medical treatments. It is
hard to know where to start. It has been proved a million
times over. that

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know that
chelation therapy removes heavy metals from the body. That
would suggest that it offers some benefit.

Logical fallacy used: non sequitir.

Yes, if you have heavy metal poisoning, chelation therapy
will very likely help you. However, it does NOT follow
(the meaning of "non sequitir," BTW) from that
observation that chelation therapy will also help you if
you have atherosclerotic coronary artery or peripheral
vascular disease.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c95d54$0$20892$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> > message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> > lobal.com...
> > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> >
> > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the
> > NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > obviously written by a chelationist.
> >
> > Where did you really get it, Dave?
>
> Herein lies one of the significant differences
> between the medically
trained
> perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
> holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a

thought

Quoted message said:

> that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> importance of the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage, none
of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

using it have been able to show it having any
objective effect upon

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disease, despite the ready availability of the
appropriate technology.

It

Quoted message said:

was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

piece.

>I work with physicians who have learned that they
>must see the bigger picture in order to receive the
>satisfaction of healing someone. The process involves
>using traditional medicine to buy the time to heal
>the patient. The healing process can't be completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> prescription is no longer required. I know this on a
> first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece and
> quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

> an associate of mine who has totally integrated
> holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is a

physician

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who
> is now able to heal.

Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about a
treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many

Quoted message said:

have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught
becasue his patients

were

Quoted message said:

dying.

Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know
that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because
they see

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of
physicians and a substantial portion of the general
population are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a
proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are offering
it as an alternative to decisive coronary interventions,
e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries.
Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may
'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a
massive fatal coronary occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of the
miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be
beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people? We
know of many who believe it has helped so in the absence of
any proof to the contrary why wouldn't we accept that as a
plan. We see people taking pure ginseng with chemo and
radiation therapy and none of the normally accepted side
effects occur. There is no study conclusively explaining the
mechanism that makes this happen, but the fact that this
keeps occurring suggests there is something of value to the
patient, in exactly the same way that Aspirin was adopted
based on anecdotal evidence that afforded an idenifiable
benefit to the patient.

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know
that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit.

...for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use
insulin because of its usefulness in treating diabetes,
does that mean it will work on my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary
artery disease is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy causes
atherosclerotic coronary artery disease, you don't have any
idea what you are talking about. So, substantiated? Duhhhh!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because
they see it offering benefits.

...to their wallets, I'm sure.

I will assume you are applying your personal criteria and
merely judging that others are as shallow and ] merciless.
You would be incorrect, again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept your assumptions, we would
have to believe that 15% of physicians and a substantial
portion of the general population are blind, ignorant
imbeciles.

...no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see your
source for this apparent claim that 15% of medical doctors
prescribe or support chelation therapy for treatment of
atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

That is not what I said. One of your problem appears to be
reading for comprehension.

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k
P.r.o.b.e.r.t [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c95d54$0$20892$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> bal.com...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> > message
> >
>

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > > in message news:[email protected]
> > > bellglobal.com...
> > > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> > >
> > > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions
> > > the NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > obviously written by a chelationist.
> > >
> > > Where did you really get it, Dave?
> >
> > Herein lies one of the significant differences
> > between the

medically

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> trained
> > perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
> > holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a
thought
> > that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> > importance of the bigger picture.
>
> The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
> serious threat

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

life

Quoted message said:

> and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage,
> none of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> using it have been able to show it having any
> objective effect upon

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> disease, despite the ready availability of the
> appropriate

technology.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It
> was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
> responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> piece.
>
> >I work with physicians who have learned that they
> >must see the bigger picture in order to receive the
> >satisfaction of healing someone. The process
> >involves using traditional medicine to buy the time
> >to heal the patient. The healing process can't be
> >completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > prescription is no longer required. I know this on
> > a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece
> > and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is
> > an associate of mine who has totally integrated
> > holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is
> > a

physician

Quoted message said:

> who
> > is now able to heal.
>
> Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about
> a treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many
> have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught
> becasue his

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were
> dying.
>
> Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know
that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit. While you

seem

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because they

see

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of
physicians and

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substantial portion of the general population are
blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a proposition that is
acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are
offering it as an alternative to decisive coronary
interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries.
Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may
'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a
massive fatal

coronary

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of
the miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be
beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

EDTA CHEATlation runs serious risks. The fact that you are
not aware of this yet push it as a treatment is scandalous.
Imagine if a RealDoctor failed to advise about side effects.
You would be bleating and braying all over the place. So
would you know who.

We know of many who

Quoted message said:

believe it has helped so in the absence of any proof to
the contrary why wouldn't we accept that as

a

Quoted message said:

plan.

Because it has not addressed the underlying disease process
and opened clogged and narrowed arteries. IOW, it has left a
time bomb in their body.

We see people taking

Quoted message said:

pure ginseng with chemo and radiation therapy and none of
the normally accepted side effects occur.

Changed subject....snip the rest...

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know
that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit.

...for removing heavy metals from the body. If I use
insulin because of its usefulness in treating diabetes,
does that mean it will work on my plantar warts, too?

Quoted message said:

While you seem to prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary
artery disease is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy
causes atherosclerotic coronary artery disease, you don't
have any idea what you are talking about. So,
substantiated? Duhhhh!

Mark, a learned name in these parts, is not trying to tell
you that. Neither was I. I will combine our points:

1. There is no proof that chelation opens clogged arteries.

2. Clogged arteries cause death.

3. People may 'feel better' with chelation, but, they are
not better, since the underlying time bombs in their
arteries are wating to go off.

Boom! People die.

Get it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the practitioners who are utilizing it do so because
they see it offering benefits.

...to their wallets, I'm sure.

I will assume you are applying your personal criteria and
merely judging that others are as shallow and ] merciless.
You would be incorrect, again.

Nope. Since there is no proof that CHEATlation opens
arteries, those scum scking, money grubbing CHEATlationists
are sucking money away for people and leaving them no better
than when they walked through the door.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In order to be able to accept your assumptions, we
would have to believe that 15% of physicians and

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substantial portion of the general population are
blind, ignorant imbeciles.

...no, just greedy or gullible. (And I'd like to see
your source for this apparent claim that 15% of medical
doctors prescribe or support chelation therapy for
treatment of atherosclerotic disease.)

Quoted message said:

Not a proposition that is acceptable.

Mark, MD

That is not what I said. One of your problem appears to be
reading for comprehension.

Now, that is what I call the pot calling the kettle black.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k
P.r.o.b.e.r.t [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40c95d54$0$20892$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com .au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> bal.com...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> > message
> >
>

news:40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.a
u...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > > in message news:[email protected]
> > > bellglobal.com...
> > > > From the New Egland Journal of Medicine...
> > >
> > > This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions
> > > the NEJM, but it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > obviously written by a chelationist.
> > >
> > > Where did you really get it, Dave?
> >
> > Herein lies one of the significant differences
> > between the medically
> trained
> > perspective and the open-minded perspective of the
> > holistic practitioner. Peter hangs his hat on a
thought
> > that is totally irrelevant, and misses the
> > importance of the bigger picture.
>
> The bigger picture is that atherosclerosis can be a
> serious threat to

life

Quoted message said:

> and limb, and despite about fifty years of usage,
> none of the

"doctors"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> using it have been able to show it having any
> objective effect upon

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> disease, despite the ready availability of the
> appropriate technology.
It
> was always obvious that one of those "doctors" was
> responsible for

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> piece.
>
> >I work with physicians who have learned that they
> >must see the bigger picture in order to receive the
> >satisfaction of healing someone. The process
> >involves using traditional medicine to buy the time
> >to heal the patient. The healing process can't be
> >completed

until

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > prescription is no longer required. I know this on
> > a first hand basis. The man who wrote this piece
> > and quotes the

NEJM

Quoted message said:

is
> > an associate of mine who has totally integrated
> > holistic medicine into is medical practise. He is
> > a

physician

Quoted message said:

> who
> > is now able to heal.
>
> Thank you. This is still objectionable puffery about
> a treatment

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many
> have tried and found useless. Kadile was caught
> becasue his patients
were
> dying.
>
> Peter Moran

Even if we accept your assumption as correct, we know
that chelation

therapy

Quoted message said:

removes heavy metals from the body. That would suggest
that it offers some benefit. While you seem

to

Quoted message said:

prefer to focus on unsubstatiated failures, the
practitioners who are utilizing it do so because
they see

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

offering benefits. In order to be able to accept your
assumptions, we would have to believe that 15% of
physicians and a substantial portion of the general
population are blind, ignorant imbeciles. Not a
proposition that is acceptable.

What we focus on is that the CHEATlationists are
offering it as an alternative to decisive coronary
interventions, e.g. CABG and stenting,

when

Quoted message said:

it offers no demonstrable opening of coronary arteries.
Thus, it leaves

the

Quoted message said:

poor soul with a false sense of security, as they may
'feel better' but

the

Quoted message said:

diesease is still there, waiting to ZAP them with a
massive fatal coronary occlusion.

That is why CHEATlation is criticized. The removal of
the miniscule

amounts

Quoted message said:

of heavy metals in the plaque may or may not be
beneficial. I have found

no

Quoted message said:

studies showing that it is.

Have you seen any studies that suggest it harms people?

Yes. Well-documented risks of chelation therapy include
kidney damage and changes in electrolyte balance leading to
cardiac arrhythmias, sometimes fatal.

Quoted message said:

We know of many who believe it has helped so in the
absence of any proof to the contrary why wouldn't we
accept that as a plan.

Because of the placebo effect. In the randomized studies for
chelation therapy, with the exception of the one study too
small to show anything, it has never been shown to produce
more relief of symptoms than placebo.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Wickware said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While you seem to prefer to focus on unsubstatiated
failures,

...a body in a coffin, dead of atherosclerotic coronary
artery disease is pretty substantiated, don't you think?

If you are trying to tell us that chelation therapy
causes atherosclerotic coronary artery disease, you don't
have any idea what you are talking about. So,
substantiated? Duhhhh!

No, idiot. He is trying to tell you that chelation therapy
does not REVERSE atherosclerotic coronary artery disease, as
chelationists claim it does. Consequently, the person who
relies on chelation therapy to treat his atherosclerotic
coronary artery disease is likely to end up in a box dead of
his untreated disease.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Chelation Therapy cont'd... From: "Peter
Moran" [email hidden] Date: 6/10/2004 7:58 PM Pacific
Daylight Time Message-id: <40c91fb0$0$311$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

Quoted message said:

This is not a quote from the NEJM. It mentions the NEJM,
but it is obviously written by a chelationist.

Where did you really get it, Dave?

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

ahhh...good pickup Peter

Quoted message said:

The New England Journal of Medicine acknowledges that
there is no

Quoted message said:

controversy over the use of chelation therapy for the
removal of toxic metals from the body. The occurrence of
unacceptable levels of lead in

ahhhh...picking up a factoid that is of course
true....chelation for heavy metals...then extrapolating to
chelation for......

hawki.....