Check out this adv.

Gary Smiley said:

This is from a reputable LBS.
I'm sure it's the advertiser's fault (they don't have a clue):
I've been at odds with anti-helmet people in the past, but I'm sure we'll
all agree that this is NOT the image for safe riding that a bike shop wants
to convey:
http://www.cityshopperonline.com/advertise

Is that even legal? It is not here in Ontario.
John Kane
Kingston ON

Gary Smiley said:

This is from a reputable LBS.
I'm sure it's the advertiser's fault (they don't have a clue):
I've been at odds with anti-helmet people in the past, but I'm sure we'll
all agree that this is NOT the image for safe riding that a bike shop wants
to convey:
http://www.cityshopperonline.com/advertise

Brings back memories; when I was a kid kids road on the handlebars all
the time. Although back then parents didn't ride bikes, at least not in
the midwest town I grew up in.

Also reminded me of an email I recently got from a friend about
Amsterdam, where he was visiting. "There are bikes EVERYWHERE, but all
of them look like holdovers from the early 80's. No one seems to want
to risk a new bike out in the streets. You see women pedaling along
with 3 kids perched in various places on her bike...they sometimes mount
big wheelbarrow looking seats in front of the handle bars of the bike.
Crazy. The dutch don't seem to be as "safety" oriented as americans."

Rich

Rich said:

Gary Smiley said:

This is from a reputable LBS.
I'm sure it's the advertiser's fault (they don't have a clue):
I've been at odds with anti-helmet people in the past, but I'm sure
we'll all agree that this is NOT the image for safe riding that a bike
shop wants to convey:
http://www.cityshopperonline.com/advertise

Brings back memories; when I was a kid kids road on the handlebars all
the time. Although back then parents didn't ride bikes, at least not in
the midwest town I grew up in.

Yeah, we rode like that, often with a kid on the back, too. Nobody died.
We also built jumps, folding forks and wheels on landing, deliberately
crashed bikes into one another, or played fun games like riding past
someone as fast as possible while he tried to hit you with a football.
Nobody died, not even any broken bones.

Kids did die drowning, sometimes going through thin ice. Others in car
crashes. I had a friend who lost a kidney in a sledding accident. Now
that was dangerous...

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Crazy. The dutch don't seem to be as "safety" oriented as americans."

The Dutch aren't as *liability* oriented as the US you mean...? ;p

"John_Kane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary Smiley said:

This is from a reputable LBS.
I'm sure it's the advertiser's fault (they don't have a clue):
I've been at odds with anti-helmet people in the past, but I'm sure we'll
all agree that this is NOT the image for safe riding that a bike shop
wants
to convey:
http://www.cityshopperonline.com/advertise

Is that even legal? It is not here in Ontario.

Posing a boy and man with a bike? It certainly is legal.

🙂

I kid but that was the reaction I had to the ad. It is a foolishly posed
photo though I've seen sillier.

--
'The first rule in Italian racing:
What is behind you'
*Tears off rearview mirror*
'Does no matter' -gumball rally

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rich said:

Gary Smiley said:

This is from a reputable LBS.
I'm sure it's the advertiser's fault (they don't have a clue):
I've been at odds with anti-helmet people in the past, but I'm sure we'll
all agree that this is NOT the image for safe riding that a bike shop wants
to convey:
http://www.cityshopperonline.com/advertise

Brings back memories; when I was a kid kids road on the handlebars all
the time.

That was how I got introduced to bicycles -- riding double
on the handlebar of my younger older brother's bike.
I wonder if that was a factor in how I had so little
difficulty in my own learning to ride. It certainly
motivated me to want to learn.

As you say -- brings back memories.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Quoted message said:

Yeah, we rode like that, often with a kid on the back, too. Nobody died.
We also built jumps, folding forks and wheels on landing, deliberately
crashed bikes into one another, or played fun games like riding past
someone as fast as possible while he tried to hit you with a football.
Nobody died, not even any broken bones.

How did we manage to live? I read some of these threads and wonder how
I survived my infancy and childhood. We had high chairs we could fall
out of, lead paint on our cribs, no seat belts in the cars, we rode on
the handlebars of our friends bike while someone else rode on the pegs
of the back wheel. We did not have helmet laws when we were on
motorcycles, we built go carts that had no brakes, and we ran wild
through the neighborhood until we were called in for supper at night.
How the hell did we live?

Also how did my kids generation survive? They did not have helmet laws
either. My son is 30. He rode his mongoose all over town without a
helmet. Built ramps, put people on his handlebars and did Evil Knievel
stunts in the playground. How did the generations prior to this one
manage to survive. How did our species survive?

I look at infant car seats today and they are so complicated, that if I
had to get the baby out in a hurry, I would be in trouble. Have we
gone too far protecting our children to the point where we are going to
raise a generation of fearful, over cautious children, who forget how
to play? I would not want to be a parent today. I really think there
is a fear today, like never before. I look outside and I never see the
neighborhood kids playing as they did when I was a child, or when my
children were young. The neighborhoods are quiet and kids are driven
everywhere. It makes me sad sometimes, not to hear the laughter I used
to hear from a whole bunch of kids playing in the neighborhood.
Suburbia has become a place where children are kept indoors until they
are taken to their playgroups or lessons. Are we allowing them to live
in fear....or is society promoting all this fear.

Maggie

Maggie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Maggie said:

Have we
gone too far protecting our children to the point where we are going to
raise a generation of fearful, over cautious children, who forget how
to play?

I do think we've presented a lot more hazards to kids now, than
half a century ago. Especially (more) automobile traffic.
And asthma-inducing automobile emissions. That said, getting
rid of lead paint was a good idea. So was easing up on spraying
DDT everywhere.

And IMO (please note that qualifier) people drive more selfishly,
carelessly, and with less sense of community and consideration
for others than they did back then.

I dunno if there are more druggies, weirdoes and crooks
running around, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are,
because I think North American society has become more
dysfunctional than it was 50-odd years ago.

Quoted message said:

I would not want to be a parent today.

Oh, I think you would :-)

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Tom Keats wrote:
So was easing up on spraying

Quoted message said:

DDT everywhere.

ahhhhh memories.....how we waited each night with great anticipation
for the little truck to come down the street so we could run through
the clouds of DDT. What memories.

Maggie

Maggie said:

Tom Keats wrote:
So was easing up on spraying

Quoted message said:

DDT everywhere.

ahhhhh memories.....how we waited each night with great anticipation
for the little truck to come down the street so we could run through
the clouds of DDT. What memories.

Maggie

We used to ride our bikes behind the trucks as they fogged the trees --
we loved the smell. We also peeled the black stuff off phone poles and
chewed it.

Tom Keats said:

I do think we've presented a lot more hazards to kids now, than
half a century ago. Especially (more) automobile traffic.
And asthma-inducing automobile emissions. That said, getting
rid of lead paint was a good idea. So was easing up on spraying
DDT everywhere.

And IMO (please note that qualifier) people drive more selfishly,
carelessly, and with less sense of community and consideration
for others than they did back then.

I dunno if there are more druggies, weirdoes and crooks
running around, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are,
because I think North American society has become more
dysfunctional than it was 50-odd years ago.

I think the media has created a fearful environment -- "If it bleeds, it
leads"

Life was a bit more hazardous back then, but people seemed less fearful.

Maggie said:

Tom Keats wrote:
So was easing up on spraying

Quoted message said:

DDT everywhere.

ahhhhh memories.....how we waited each night with great anticipation
for the little truck to come down the street so we could run through
the clouds of DDT. What memories.

Funny how we all seemed to survive the things that are supposed to
kill us all immediately now, huh?

On a related note, I've read that the backlash against DDT has
actually probably killed MANY more people than the "dangerous
insecticide" ever would have. It seems that DDT was a very effective
anti-mosquito agent that was being used in many third world countries,
but isn't any longer. Due to the higher cost of the alternatives,
fewer mosquitos are being controlled, so malaria is killing more
people than it otherwise would have. Odd world we live in.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Funny how we all seemed to survive the things that are supposed to
kill us all immediately now, huh?

I agree. If you can believe it, when I was a kid, the playground
didn't even have rubber padding under the swingset!

Quoted message said:

On a related note, I've read that the backlash against DDT has
actually probably killed MANY more people than the "dangerous
insecticide" ever would have. It seems that DDT was a very effective
anti-mosquito agent that was being used in many third world countries,
but isn't any longer. Due to the higher cost of the alternatives,
fewer mosquitos are being controlled, so malaria is killing more
people than it otherwise would have. Odd world we live in.

Sorry, but I can't condone spraying DDT. The biological effects are
disastrous. There's no doubt, AFAIK, about the effect of DDT on
raptors, for one thing.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Funny how we all seemed to survive the things that are supposed to
kill us all immediately now, huh?

I agree. If you can believe it, when I was a kid, the playground
didn't even have rubber padding under the swingset!

Quoted message said:

On a related note, I've read that the backlash against DDT has
actually probably killed MANY more people than the "dangerous
insecticide" ever would have. It seems that DDT was a very effective
anti-mosquito agent that was being used in many third world countries,
but isn't any longer. Due to the higher cost of the alternatives,
fewer mosquitos are being controlled, so malaria is killing more
people than it otherwise would have. Odd world we live in.

Sorry, but I can't condone spraying DDT. The biological effects are
disastrous. There's no doubt, AFAIK, about the effect of DDT on
raptors, for one thing.

Right. It is not a simple situation. DDT is non-toxic to humans, but
poisonous to critters other than mosquitos. It also is persistant,
with a half life on the ground of 10-15 years. It is still used in
some countries for mosquito control, where the risk from malaria is
deemed to outweigh the environmental hazards. Also, because of the
way DDT works, it is also easy for resistance to develop, and this
has, in fact, happend in India and other places. DDT is not a panacea
for malaria. With our current knowledge, indiscriminate use no longer
makes sense.

Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:30:40 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, Mark Hickey

Quoted message said:

Due to the higher cost of the alternatives,
fewer mosquitos are being controlled, so malaria is killing more
people than it otherwise would have. Odd world we live in.

Not so odd if you're a Rockefeller. It's planned parenthood.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

I agree. If you can believe it, when I was a kid, the playground
didn't even have rubber padding under the swingset!

Wow, rubber padding under the swingset? That might have helped me when
I was a kid and we all used to go to the park and play. One day my
brother was pushing me into orbit and me, and the swing went so high we
went around the top pole. I think that is what my brother was trying
to accomplish. Anyway I fell on my head. When I started to cry my
brother told me to stop being a baby, get up, and don't tell MOM.
Those were fun days. ;-) I think we were all nuts back then.
Having an older brother, made me the tough broad I am today. ;-)

I never remember playing house, or playing with dolls. All I remember
is playing rough games with the neighborhood kids and my brother. My
brother was the ring leader and I was always getting knocked around by
something or someone. I should have been playing with Barbie Dolls.
And my means of transportation was the front handlebars of his bike. I
still ask the question....how did my generation survive their
childhood?

Maggie.

Maggie said:

Quoted message said:

I agree. If you can believe it, when I was a kid, the playground
didn't even have rubber padding under the swingset!

Quoted message said:

I never remember playing house, or playing with dolls. All I remember
is playing rough games with the neighborhood kids and my brother. My
brother was the ring leader and I was always getting knocked around by
something or someone. I should have been playing with Barbie Dolls.
And my means of transportation was the front handlebars of his bike. I
still ask the question....how did my generation survive their
childhood?

Because you were the ones who DID NOT die.

For the last year and a bit I was a kindergarten teacher in China.
Before that I was doing high school. Now I'm doing college.

In 15 months out of ~1500 children at the two kindergartens I was
assosciated there were two accidental deaths of children aged 3-6.
Another child had a very bad head injury with potential brain
complications. Thank god none of those kids were -my- students.

One of -my- kids had burn scars all over one side of his body.

I'm not talking some backwoods countryside farm community. I'm talking
big city rich rich parents. Tuition fees that cost more than a top
tier university.

As life expectancy increases in the west, we become less familiar with
death. My Welsh friend who had to face "so and so is in hospital, he
was hit by a car," and "so and so died yesterday" was more upset by it
than the Chinese teachers who saw that boy everyday (she only saw him
twice a week). To them death or mutilation of children is something
horrible but still a fact of life.

In the developed countries (as opposed to developing) it is no longer a
fact of life. We've lost the "death happens" attitude.

I have friends not that much older than me who remember famine. Not
just temporary hunger that could be fixed by money. But actual
_famine_. Cities and counties and provinces full of hungry people.

I don't know about the rest of you all but, unless it was deliberate
(like Yom Kippur fasting) or a case of so busy I forgot, I've never
been hungry. And even when I've been hungry there has always been a
grocery store, restaurant, or refrigerator around to fill the empty
spot.

Helmets, car seats, not riding on handlebars, rubber mats on
playgrounds, and all these other safety measures are our way of
mentally fighting the reaper.

As the safety measures become more and more complicated the number of
injuries prevented become statistically more insignificant compared to
the amount of money spent BUT when you or one of your loved ones has
been one of those statistics you suddenly find that it isn't so
insignificant after all.

....

Oh, and to bring this back to the topic of the advertisement. At least
to me, it looks like the kid is sitting on something mounted on the
handlebars.

-M

brucianna said:

In the developed countries (as opposed to developing) it is no longer a
fact of life. We've lost the "death happens" attitude.

One thing I disagree with in your post. We have not lost the "death
happens" attitude. I think we are more attuned to the fact that "life
is short", "we could be dead tomorrow", and "We are not going to live
forever" philosphy than ever before. Parents are in constant fear of
something happening to their children more than ever before. My mother
sent me out to play in the morning and never thought about what I was
doing or where I was going. I was in the neighborhood playing. If she
needed me she yelled out the window. Now children are scheduled,
picked up at school, and carefully monitored. Is that a loss of the
"death happens" attitude? There is more worry today about death,
accidents, and tragedy than ever before in my opinion. We have become
a fearful nation. I've lived long enough to know that "death happens".
I've known people who lost a child, I've lost people I love, I lost
friends, and I certainly know the grim reaper is coming to get me
eventually. Where do you see the attitude of "death happens"
diminishing in this country. I see an attitude of "the only thing we
cannot escape is death"....so live while your alive.

Maggie

Jim Smith said:

Frank said:

Sorry, but I can't condone spraying DDT. The biological effects are
disastrous. There's no doubt, AFAIK, about the effect of DDT on
raptors, for one thing.

Right. It is not a simple situation. DDT is non-toxic to humans, but
poisonous to critters other than mosquitos. It also is persistant,
with a half life on the ground of 10-15 years. It is still used in
some countries for mosquito control, where the risk from malaria is
deemed to outweigh the environmental hazards. Also, because of the
way DDT works, it is also easy for resistance to develop, and this
has, in fact, happend in India and other places. DDT is not a panacea
for malaria. With our current knowledge, indiscriminate use no longer
makes sense.

Here's a neat study on malaria that shows the value of simple controls
and sophisticated tecniques to test their effectiveness:

http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0405/malaria1of2.html

-Buck