Chainstay length theory

Derk said:

I wonder if there's a good reason why bigger bikes have longer chainstays.

If so, why do LOOK produce all their bikes with the same chainstay length?

I noticed that and am very curious what the philosophy behind that may be.

Bigger bikes have longer top tubes, so to keep the proportions and weight
distribution the same, they should have longer chainstays.

Unfortunately, due to the style of short chainstays, there is often little
difference in chainstay length between large and small frames.

Art Harris

"Arthur Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Derk said:

I wonder if there's a good reason why bigger bikes have longer chainstays.

If so, why do LOOK produce all their bikes with the same chainstay length?

I noticed that and am very curious what the philosophy behind that may be.

Bigger bikes have longer top tubes, so to keep the proportions and weight
distribution the same, they should have longer chainstays.

Unfortunately, due to the style of short chainstays, there is often little
difference in chainstay length between large and small frames.

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about Leonard Zinn's
custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the current short chainstay
fashion. This would make little sense for short frames, it's absurd for big
ones.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if there's a good reason why bigger bikes have longer
chainstays.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If so, why do LOOK produce all their bikes with the same chainstay
length?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I noticed that and am very curious what the philosophy behind that
may be.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bigger bikes have longer top tubes, so to keep the proportions and
weight distribution the same, they should have longer chainstays.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, due to the style of short chainstays, there is often
little difference in chainstay length between large and small
frames.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he would
have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies when
climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new frame
from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame builders.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he would
have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies when
climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new frame
from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame builders.

He is a tall rider. I think he must ride steep grades since he's based in
Colorado, but I think his engineering is as shaky as his bikes must be.

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:wN6Tc.248940$%_6.229701@attbi_s01:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about Leonard
Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the current
short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for short
frames, it's absurd for big ones.

That would be especially bad on a touring bike, since foot size tends to
scale up with the size of the rider. I've whacked the leading edge of
panniers with my size 13 feet, on a frame where the chainstays were too
short for the nominal frame size.

--
Mike Barrs

Peter Cole said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he would
have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies when
climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new frame
from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame builders.

He is a tall rider. I think he must ride steep grades since he's based in
Colorado, but I think his engineering is as shaky as his bikes must be.

Dear Peter,

Actually, despite all our mountains, steep paved grades are
surprisingly rare in Colorado.

Paved roads here tend to follow steady railroad grades
instead of zig-zagging steeply up hairpin turns.

My impression is that riders who enjoy toiling up steep
paved grades in California and in the Alps find Colorado's
high-altitude roads scenic, but not terribly challenging.

(With luck, indignant local patriots will post lists of
little-known but fearsome paved grades in the rectangular
state.)

Shakily,

Carl Fogel

foldedpath said:

I've whacked the leading edge of panniers with my size 13 feet, on a
frame where the chainstays were too short for the nominal frame size.

Let's have a look at Colnago: the difference is only 1.3 cm in total for
framesize 52-65 cm, so how could that make such a big difference?

Greets, Derk

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he
would have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies
when climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new
frame from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame
builders.

Quoted message said:

He is a tall rider. I think he must ride steep grades since he's
based in Colorado, but I think his engineering is as shaky as his
bikes must be.

Don't confuse high mountains with steep roads. Tennessee pass at
10424ft is crossed by the UP railroad with less than 2% grades
typically. Even the road up Mt. Evans isn't particularly steep. You
can do a lot of riding on paved Colorado roads and not see much of a
wheelie problem, the roads being so flat in comparison to 20% grades
of Sonora Pass CA or Priest Grade for example.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

[email hidden said:

"]On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:02:32 GMT, "Peter Cole"
.....snip ....

(With luck, indignant local patriots will post lists of
little-known but fearsome paved grades in the rectangular
state.)

Shakily,

Carl Fogel

I see no reason WY local patriots would become indignant enough to identify steep Wyoming bike trails.

meb said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:02:32 GMT, "Peter Cole"
.....snip ....

(With luck, indignant local patriots will post lists of
little-known but fearsome paved grades in the rectangular
state.)

Shakily,

Carl Fogel

I see no reason WY local patriots would become indignant enough to
identify steep Wyoming bike trails.

Dear Meb,

Being further north, Wyoming necessarily has less claim to
rectangularity than Colorado.

I'm not saying that the converging lines of longitude on the
eastern and western borders make Wyoming practically
triangular and pointy-headed in comparison to
square-shooting, God-fearing Colorado, but . . .

In any case, a detailed map reveals that Wyoming intrudes
into Colorado's territory. This unprovoked aggression occurs
between 106 and 107 degrees west longitude.

Horrifyingly, New Mexico to the south exhibits the same
imperialistic behavior, just short of 107 degrees west
longitude.

Unbelievably, even Utah invades Colorado's divinely decreed
rectangular borders at about 38 degrees north latitude--so
much for Mormon morality!

Arizona, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska are decent neighbors
and do not infringe upon Colorado's rectangular purity.

Jingoistically,

Carl Fogel

meb said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:02:32 GMT, "Peter Cole"
.....snip ....

(With luck, indignant local patriots will post lists of
little-known but fearsome paved grades in the rectangular
state.)

Shakily,

Carl Fogel

I see no reason WY local patriots would become indignant enough to
identify steep Wyoming bike trails.

i wouldn't mind if any idaho patriots were to list fearsome paved grades
here, either. perhaps in an attempt to belittle wyoming or colorado,
whatever. but hurry up, please, vacation nears.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

David Reuteler said:

meb said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:02:32 GMT, "Peter Cole"
.....snip ....

(With luck, indignant local patriots will post lists of
little-known but fearsome paved grades in the rectangular
state.)

Shakily,

Carl Fogel

I see no reason WY local patriots would become indignant enough to
identify steep Wyoming bike trails.

i wouldn't mind if any idaho patriots were to list fearsome paved grades
here, either. perhaps in an attempt to belittle wyoming or colorado,
whatever. but hurry up, please, vacation nears.

Dear David,

Idaho? Bah! Scarcely even trying for rectangularity--a state
that looks like a a dollar bill badly torn in half!

(And that's only if you gloss over the wobbly Oregon border
along the Snake River.)

I've looked, but found nothing for Idaho like this site for
Colorado highways:

http://www.mesalek.com/colo

The best that I could do was to google for:

Idaho "15% grade" highway

and replace "15" with various numbers. You still get a lot
of pesky grade-school sites, but the method might suggest
some climbs to kill yourself on during your vacation.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Idaho? Bah! Scarcely even trying for rectangularity--a state
that looks like a a dollar bill badly torn in half!

(And that's only if you gloss over the wobbly Oregon border
along the Snake River.)

I've looked, but found nothing for Idaho like this site for
Colorado highways:

well, there are no 14'ers here, either. the best we have are borah peak
(12,662) and well 5 others in the 12k range and i'm at a paltry 2400 feet.
on the plus side there's no money to build the roads "properly" so we got
some mean ass grades on occassion. the fire roads are especially nice.

Quoted message said:

The best that I could do was to google for:

Idaho "15% grade" highway

and replace "15" with various numbers. You still get a lot
of pesky grade-school sites, but the method might suggest
some climbs to kill yourself on during your vacation.

there are grade schools in idaho?
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

David Reuteler said...

Quoted message said:

i wouldn't mind if any idaho patriots were to list fearsome paved grades
here, either. perhaps in an attempt to belittle wyoming or colorado,
whatever. but hurry up, please, vacation nears.

An obvious one is to take SR-22 west out of Jackson, WY over the Teton
Pass into Victor, ID, or vice versa. Traffic is moderate, but there is a
nice shoulder which makes for a decent bike lane. Lots of riders on this
road. Bike shops and other refreshments can be found in Jackson, Wilson,
and Victor. Best bet is to visit an LBS and get the scoop on local rides
wherever you end up.

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Ym7Tc.1979$mD.1586@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he would
have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies when
climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new frame
from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame builders.

He is a tall rider. I think he must ride steep grades since he's based in
Colorado, but I think his engineering is as shaky as his bikes must be.

I believe that Zinn lives most of the year with his family in the Umbria
region of Italy. My recollection is that some of the "grades" were very
steep. He seems very accessible. Those of you that have an interest in his
chainstay design philosophy might want to send him an email and ask why.
I'll bet you get a reasoned response.
Bill

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I believe that Zinn lives most of the year with his family in the Umbria
region of Italy. My recollection is that some of the "grades" were very
steep. He seems very accessible. Those of you that have an interest in his
chainstay design philosophy might want to send him an email and ask why.
I'll bet you get a reasoned response.

There is no reason for short chainstays. They're a nuisance on regular size
bikes, they create instability on large ones. I was contemplating this as I
rode behind a guy on a "Zinn" this morning.

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

>Yeah, this is one of the things that really surprised me about
>Leonard Zinn's custom frames for tall riders -- he sticks with the
>current short chainstay fashion. This would make little sense for
>short frames, it's absurd for big ones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see he isn't a tall rider who climbs steep grades seated or he
would have noticed that short chainstays make a rider do wheelies
when climbing. That was one of the things I fixed when I got a new
frame from Cinelli in the old days and later from my local frame
builders.

Quoted message said:

He is a tall rider. I think he must ride steep grades since he's
based in Colorado, but I think his engineering is as shaky as his
bikes must be.

Don't confuse high mountains with steep roads. Tennessee pass at
10424ft is crossed by the UP railroad with less than 2% grades
typically. Even the road up Mt. Evans isn't particularly steep. You
can do a lot of riding on paved Colorado roads and not see much of a
wheelie problem, the roads being so flat in comparison to 20% grades
of Sonora Pass CA or Priest Grade for example.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Well straight out of Boulder you can ride Magnolia Rd which is certainly
as steep as St. Gothard both of which I've ridden recently. The St.
Juans are also full of v.steep minor roads, often with greater elevation
gain than a lot of alpine passes - 5000ft ascents are easy to find in
most of the Rockies, 7000ft around also but less common. Colorado comes
into it's own though on its old mining and forestry roads. There are
hundreds (probably thousands) of old, barely used, unmade roads of any
grade you like to choose from all over the west of the state. Most of my
favourite rides involved heading straight up the steepest unmade rd I
could find to the continental divide and then coasting back down a paved
road for 4x the distance. I don't think I ever cycled East of Boulder
over the course of my year there for obvious reasons...

Thomas Hood

Carl Fogel wrote:

“Arizona, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska are decent neighbors
and do not infringe upon Colorado's rectangular purity”

As a native of Indiana and an Alum of an Illinois law school, I am familiar with the border litigation those states have had with Kentucky as a result of occasional Ohio River wanderings (US Supreme Court held KY’s northern border is the 1789 high water mark-Actually IN & IL succeeded merely in availing themselves with some me too litigation per the much more Litigious OH who finally had a line of litigation that worked along a less fixed portion of the Ohio River). Even my current home VA has had its share of Supreme Court litigation with MD over the wandering Potomac and its water rights (US Supreme Court held MD’s southern border is the southern bank of the Potomac at some colonial era date). I see MO & AR resolved the border dispute initiated by Fed surveyors this past year because Missouri didn’t want northern Arkansas.

I never realized and I am pleased to hear that AZ and CO have amicably resolved any border disputes pre-litigation rather than coming in with a team of surveyors and attorneys to decide what land along their border belongs to each state, and where the border needs be drawn. Besides, those hydrology experts would be pulling their hair out trying to figure out to inject their expertise into a CO-AZ border dispute.

meb said:

Carl Fogel wrote:

“Arizona, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska are decent neighbors
and do not infringe upon Colorado's rectangular purity”

As a native of Indiana and an Alum of an Illinois law school, I am
familiar with the border litigation those states have had with Kentucky
as a result of occasional Ohio River wanderings (US Supreme Court held
KY’s northern border is the 1789 high water mark-Actually IN & IL
succeeded merely in availing themselves with some me too litigation per
the much more Litigious OH who finally had a line of litigation that
worked along a less fixed portion of the Ohio River). Even my current
home VA has had its share of Supreme Court litigation with MD over the
wandering Potomac and its water rights (US Supreme Court held MD’s
southern border is the southern bank of the Potomac at some colonial
era date). I see MO & AR resolved the border dispute initiated by Fed
surveyors this past year because Missouri didn’t want northern
Arkansas.

I never realized and I am pleased to hear that AZ and CO have amicably
resolved any border disputes pre-litigation rather than coming in with
a team of surveyors and attorneys to decide what land along their
border belongs to each state, and where the border needs be drawn.
Besides, those hydrology experts would be pulling their hair out trying
to figure out to inject their expertise into a CO-AZ border dispute.

Dear Meb,

Primitive non-rectangular states are naturally quarrelsome.

As long as Arizona keeps on its side of the Four Corners,
there will be no need to repeat the lesson that Colorado was
forced to teach New Mexico in the battle of Glorieta Pass.

Carl Fogel