chainstay gouge

It's unfortunate that Specialized doesn't wan't to support their
customer when their product has such an obvious flaw.

Since they are going through the trouble to make the guard out of
carbon fiber they could improve the design by including some tabs on
the ends that wrap around the stay to keep it in place. I liew of this
design improvement, some zipties will serve the same function.

SC said:

I've had my Specialized Tarmac Pro for about two months now - I was
cleaning it the other day and noticed the chainstay protector (a
carbon fiber plate) was skewed sitting about 75-deg up from the
chainstay. And right there where the plate used to be was a nice deep
gouge in the carbon. There is some grease on the plate but no damage
to it. The LBS guys say the damage is deep enough to cause structural
problems (it didn't look too deep to me, but it *is* into the carbon).

Jeez.

I took the frame back to the LBS who tried to get Specialized to
replace it based on the fact the plate came off, but Specialized said,
"Dude, takka hike!"

Everyone who has seen it sez some type of chain suck caused this but I
can't remember, for the life of me any such an episode, let alone one
that would cause a serious gouge.

In the past Specialized has warranty replaced frames that I thought
were in much better shape (a couple of the old glued carbon tube
frames that were oxiding at the joints)

My questions for the group:
Has anyone seen this problem with carbon fiber frames? Sounds like a
little chainsuck protector would be a good insurance item for owners.

Is there any appeal route from Specialized? The LBS is sending in the
frame to see if they change their mind.

Do you think the warranty should cover chain suck if the problem was
the chainstay protector came off?

I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Thanks,
Steve

1. if you post pics, it'll be easier to give an opinion on the problem.

2. chain suck is not a frame manufacturer's fault.

3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

Steve C. who? said:

I've had my Specialized Tarmac Pro for about two months now - I was
cleaning it the other day and noticed the chainstay protector (a
carbon fiber plate) was skewed sitting about 75-deg up from the
chainstay. And right there where the plate used to be was a nice deep
gouge in the carbon. There is some grease on the plate but no damage
to it. The LBS guys say the damage is deep enough to cause structural
problems (it didn't look too deep to me, but it *is* into the carbon)....

Could a repair be made by wrapping a piece of appropriate carbon fiber
cloth around the stay and bonding it with an appropriate epoxy?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

jim beam said:

SC wrote:

<snip>

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Thanks,
Steve

<Snip>

Quoted message said:

3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Stan Cox

Stan Cox said:

jim beam said:

SC wrote:

<snip>

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks,
Steve

<Snip>

Quoted message said:

3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Stan Cox

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous. Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman said:

Could a repair be made by wrapping a piece of appropriate carbon fiber
cloth around the stay and bonding it with an appropriate epoxy?

Sure, as long as:
A) the damage is a sufficient distance from the ends to allow a decent overlap, 30 mm or so in both directions
B) the owner is ready to accept the weight increase of perhaps 15-30 grams for the added material
C) the owner is ready to accept the aestethic blemish of the slight swelling and less-than-perfect surface match of the repair.

Joe Bernard said:

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous. Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

Good for you.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

dabac said:

Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman said:

Could a repair be made by wrapping a piece of appropriate carbon fiber
cloth around the stay and bonding it with an appropriate epoxy?

Sure, as long as:
A) the damage is a sufficient distance from the ends to allow a decent
overlap, 30 mm or so in both directions
B) the owner is ready to accept the weight increase of perhaps 15-30
grams for the added material
C) the owner is ready to accept the aestethic blemish of the slight
swelling and less-than-perfect surface match of the repair.

And this sort of fix is only possible if there is enough room for it.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Joe Bernard said:

Stan Cox said:

jim beam said:

SC wrote:

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Thanks,
> Steve

Quoted message said:

<Snip>

Quoted message said:

3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

Quoted message said:

As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Quoted message said:

Stan Cox

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous. Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

Lance Armstrong rode his CARBON-framed bike up Luz Ardiden with a
cracked chainstay during the TdF. As I recall, he won the stage
too.

Sounds like it ain't 'just good, or it's broke'.

D'ohBoy

Joe Bernard said:

Stan Cox said:

jim beam said:

SC wrote:

<snip>

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂
> Thanks,
> Steve

<Snip>

Quoted message said:

3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Stan Cox

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous.

eh? so how does a buckled and folded steel tube impact the way in which
you hit the pavement any differently from a failed carbon tube? [except
that the carbon is probably stronger and more fatigue resistant and less
likely to dump you in the first place of course.]

Quoted message said:

Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

not true. carbon usually cracks, creaks and groans before failure. if
you were a construction worker standing on a plank on a high scaffold,
would you keep standing on the plank that creaked and cracked when you
put weight on it? simply pay attention to carbon like you would wood.

oh, and high tensile steel doesn't have a "slowly fading curve" - it's
usually rather abrupt.

dabac said:

Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman said:

Could a repair be made by wrapping a piece of appropriate carbon fiber
cloth around the stay and bonding it with an appropriate epoxy?

Sure, as long as:
A) the damage is a sufficient distance from the ends to allow a decent
overlap, 30 mm or so in both directions
B) the owner is ready to accept the weight increase of perhaps 15-30
grams for the added material
C) the owner is ready to accept the aestethic blemish of the slight
swelling and less-than-perfect surface match of the repair.

good point. besides, carbon weave seen on the exterior of most carbon
components is largely cosmetic. the randomly oriented stuff like you
see on trek frames and campy cranks - /that/ is directly structural, but
weave usually covers a bland and unaesthetic structural substrate.

jim beam said:

Joe Bernard said:

Stan Cox said:

jim beam wrote:
> SC wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂
>> Thanks,
>> Steve
<Snip>
> 3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.
As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stan Cox

Quoted message said:

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous.

eh? so how does a buckled and folded steel tube impact the way in which
you hit the pavement any differently from a failed carbon tube? [except
that the carbon is probably stronger and more fatigue resistant and less
likely to dump you in the first place of course.]

Quoted message said:

Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

not true. carbon usually cracks, creaks and groans before failure. if
you were a construction worker standing on a plank on a high scaffold,
would you keep standing on the plank that creaked and cracked when you
put weight on it? simply pay attention to carbon like you would wood.

oh, and high tensile steel doesn't have a "slowly fading curve" - it's
usually rather abrupt.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe y'all are right and I'm just paranoid, and maybe I should change
the channel when Steve Matchette starts talking about "shards of
carbon fiber all over the racing surface."

Joe Bernard said:

jim beam said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Aug 2, 11:07 pm, Stan Cox <[email hidden]> wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> SC wrote:
> <snip>
> stay protector came off?
>>> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
> <Snip>
>> 3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.
> As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
> did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
> started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
> 80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
> Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
> use today as my winter hack.
> Stan Cox
This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous.

eh? so how does a buckled and folded steel tube impact the way in which
you hit the pavement any differently from a failed carbon tube? [except
that the carbon is probably stronger and more fatigue resistant and less
likely to dump you in the first place of course.]

Quoted message said:

Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

not true. carbon usually cracks, creaks and groans before failure. if
you were a construction worker standing on a plank on a high scaffold,
would you keep standing on the plank that creaked and cracked when you
put weight on it? simply pay attention to carbon like you would wood.

oh, and high tensile steel doesn't have a "slowly fading curve" - it's
usually rather abrupt.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe y'all are right and I'm just paranoid, and maybe I should change
the channel when Steve Matchette starts talking about "shards of
carbon fiber all over the racing surface."

like /any/ bike, you need to clean, inspect, and pay close attention if
anything starts strangely. especially creaking, cracking and groaning
noises. other than that, enjoy the better strength/weight ratio, the
better fatigue resistance and smoother ride.

jim beam said:

Joe Bernard said:

jim beam said:

Joe Bernard wrote:
> On Aug 2, 11:07 pm, Stan Cox <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> SC wrote:
>> <snip>
>> stay protector came off?
>>>> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Steve
>> <Snip>
>>> 3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.
>> As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
>> did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
>> started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
>> 80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
>> Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
>> use today as my winter hack.
>> Stan Cox
> This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
> treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
> shattering when impacted makes me nervous.
eh? so how does a buckled and folded steel tube impact the way in which
you hit the pavement any differently from a failed carbon tube? [except
that the carbon is probably stronger and more fatigue resistant and less
likely to dump you in the first place of course.]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yes, other materials can be
> compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
> fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.
not true. carbon usually cracks, creaks and groans before failure. if
you were a construction worker standing on a plank on a high scaffold,
would you keep standing on the plank that creaked and cracked when you
put weight on it? simply pay attention to carbon like you would wood.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

oh, and high tensile steel doesn't have a "slowly fading curve" - it's
usually rather abrupt.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Maybe y'all are right and I'm just paranoid, and maybe I should change
the channel when Steve Matchette starts talking about "shards of
carbon fiber all over the racing surface."

like /any/ bike, you need to clean, inspect, and pay close attention if
anything starts strangely. especially creaking, cracking and groaning
noises. other than that, enjoy the better strength/weight ratio, the
better fatigue resistance and smoother ride.

.... and the better advertising copy! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

D'ohBoy said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Aug 2, 11:07 pm, Stan Cox <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:
> SC wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stay protector came off?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Thanks,
>> Steve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<Snip>
> 3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
use today as my winter hack.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stan Cox

Quoted message said:

This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
shattering when impacted makes me nervous. Yes, other materials can be
compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.

Lance Armstrong rode his CARBON-framed bike up Luz Ardiden with a
cracked chainstay during the TdF. As I recall, he won the stage
too.

Sounds like it ain't 'just good, or it's broke'.

Racing in a world class event is different than any of our riding.
His benefit from pushing on obviously outweighed the detriment of
increased risk. And even so, I'm sure he didn't use the same bike in
the next stage. That is, I'm sure he and the team mechanics agreed:
"It _is_ broke."

Again, racing in a world class event is different than any of our
riding. Even though some of us pretend otherwise. And even though
that pretending sells a lot of very fancy equipment.

- Frank Krygowski

jim beam said:

like /any/ bike, you need to clean, inspect, and pay close attention if
anything starts [acting] strangely. especially creaking, cracking and groaning
noises....

I thought that was normal cyclist behavior!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

SC said:

I've had my Specialized Tarmac Pro for about two months now - I was
cleaning it the other day and noticed the chainstay protector (a
carbon fiber plate) was skewed sitting about 75-deg up from the
chainstay. And right there where the plate used to be was a nice deep
gouge in the carbon. There is some grease on the plate but no damage
to it. The LBS guys say the damage is deep enough to cause structural
problems (it didn't look too deep to me, but it *is* into the carbon).

Jeez.

I took the frame back to the LBS who tried to get Specialized to
replace it based on the fact the plate came off, but Specialized said,
"Dude, takka hike!"

Everyone who has seen it sez some type of chain suck caused this but I
can't remember, for the life of me any such an episode, let alone one
that would cause a serious gouge.

In the past Specialized has warranty replaced frames that I thought
were in much better shape (a couple of the old glued carbon tube
frames that were oxiding at the joints)

My questions for the group:
Has anyone seen this problem with carbon fiber frames? Sounds like a
little chainsuck protector would be a good insurance item for owners.

Is there any appeal route from Specialized? The LBS is sending in the
frame to see if they change their mind.

Do you think the warranty should cover chain suck if the problem was
the chainstay protector came off?

I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂

Thanks,
Steve

You might look at Calfee's repair service: http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm
.. They seem to know their stuff pretty darn well.

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Aug 3, 7:15 am, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Joe Bernard wrote:
>> On Aug 2, 11:07 pm, Stan Cox <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> SC wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> stay protector came off?
>>>>> I guess I gotta go back to steel 🙂
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Steve
>>> <Snip>
>>>> 3. a gouged steel frame will fatigue most impressively.
>>> As indeed did my Fausto Coppi. I had the chain off in the first race I
>>> did on it and dinged the stay. It lasted another 3 years till one day I
>>> started to hear a pinging noise. On investigation the stay had a crack
>>> 80% of the way around it. The only difference with steel was that Chas
>>> Roberts did a fine job of replacing the stay and the frame is still in
>>> use today as my winter hack.
>>> Stan Cox
>> This is why I don't trust carbon on bikes. It may be strong when
>> treated correctly, but, the scenes in Formula One auto racing of it
>> shattering when impacted makes me nervous.
> eh? so how does a buckled and folded steel tube impact the way in which
> you hit the pavement any differently from a failed carbon tube? [except
> that the carbon is probably stronger and more fatigue resistant and less
> likely to dump you in the first place of course.]
>> Yes, other materials can be
>> compromised as well, but, carbon doesn't seem to have much of a slowly-
>> fading curve. It's just good, or it's broke.
> not true. carbon usually cracks, creaks and groans before failure. if
> you were a construction worker standing on a plank on a high scaffold,
> would you keep standing on the plank that creaked and cracked when you
> put weight on it? simply pay attention to carbon like you would wood.
> oh, and high tensile steel doesn't have a "slowly fading curve" - it's
> usually rather abrupt.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe y'all are right and I'm just paranoid, and maybe I should change
the channel when Steve Matchette starts talking about "shards of
carbon fiber all over the racing surface."

like /any/ bike, you need to clean, inspect, and pay close attention if
anything starts strangely. especially creaking, cracking and groaning
noises. other than that, enjoy the better strength/weight ratio, the
better fatigue resistance and smoother ride.

... and the better advertising copy! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

you're an idiot krygowski.

Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

jim beam said:

like /any/ bike, you need to clean, inspect, and pay close attention
if anything starts [acting] strangely. especially creaking, cracking
and groaning noises....

I thought that was normal cyclist behavior!

the cleaning and inspection?