Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Chain skipping on large chain ring.

Started by Xyzzy · · Last activity · 69 posts · 2,035 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
10 August 2005
Last activity
20 August 2005
Original author
Xyzzy
Posts
69
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,035
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 69
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. This has me baffled.

    I just replaced the chain on my bike. It had approximately 4000 miles
    on it. I never had any problem with it, except over the last 1000 miles
    it got slightly more noisy. It shifted perfectly and was a breeze to
    tune. My Park CC-2 told me it was .5% worn, so I decided to replace it.
    I don't have any calipers or machine rule to measure wear with, just
    the CC-2.

    So I replaced the chain. The cassette on the bike is relatively new. I
    frequently swap cogs around between cassettes so some cogs are newer
    than others. I recently switched to an 11-21 setup from a 12-25 so I
    took 4 links out of the chain when I installed it. It now is 104 links
    long instead of 108 links. It it sized to allow me to shift into the
    big/big combo without putting the rear derailleur into the wheel. I
    never use the big/big or small/small combo.

    After putting on the new chain, everything works perfectly, except the
    big ring. The small ring is smooth whether pedalling forwards or
    backwards. The cassette is smooth and does not skip. The big ring,
    however, has a bit of hooking action going on when pedalling forwards,
    and if I pedal backwards the chain rides up the teeth every once in a
    while and then plops back down where it is supposed to be.

    Here is a picture:

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg

    I doubt the chain will suck up because of the tension on the chain from
    the derailleur spring. I rarely pedal backwards so I would not normally
    notice this skipping, except I do pedal the crank backwards when I
    clean the chain, which is how I noticed this. The chain, BTW, is joined
    with the Campy pin, not a quick link, in case this matters.

    I compared the length of the old chain to the new chain and the old
    chain was a little longer, but not a whole lot. My CC-2 won't even fit
    into the new chain at all! Either my CC-2 is not calibrated properly or
    the new chain is ultra tight.

    I ride 99% of the time in the small ring. I can only think of 3 or 4
    times, since I bought the bike, where I have used the big ring. I would
    expect the small ring to wear out long before the large ring. I would
    also expect the cassette to show significant wear before the chain
    rings, and I definitely wouldn't expect to see wear in just a few
    months. I have seen chain rings that are worn to nubs that still worked
    fine.

    I use ProLink to lube the chain and my chain is usually clean enough to
    eat off of. I believe the chain only needs lubrication on the inside.
    Any lube on the outside just collects dirt. I doubt lack of preventive
    maintenance caused this. In fact, when I replaced the chain, I was able
    to set the old chain down on my white carpet (Why do women like white
    carpet?) without marking the floor, and this was after a 100 mile ride.
    I've even read that a totally dry chain is just as efficient as one
    that is oiled a bunch.

    I cannot rotate or flip the large chain ring because it is pinned and
    ramped and because it has an indexing mark/chain catcher thing that
    tells you where to install it. I had heard that chain rings can develop
    hooks where the area of greatest power is applied, but like I mentioned
    I have maybe 20 miles on this ring and I'm certainly not known for
    generating a lot of power.

    What I think will happen is I will ride the bike for a few hundred
    miles and the chain will stretch slightly and fit the large ring
    properly. Since I rarely use the large ring this really isn't an issue
    anyways. I'm just curious what is going on here.

    Any ideas are appreciated! I really don't want to have to replace the
    whole drivetrain so if this is going to cause abnormal wear I need to
    know. I typically ride 200-400 miles a week.

    Thanks!

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  2. Mike,

    your picture seems to show nicely cleaned worn chain rings. Assuming
    that you've replaced the chain with the correct width chain and it
    works with your cassette then replacement of the chain rings seems your
    only option . (again confirm width of rings suitable for 9/10 speed set
    up).

    regards

    Davy

  3. Xyzzy said:

    This has me baffled.

    Quoted message said:

    Any ideas are appreciated! I really don't want to have to replace the
    whole drivetrain so if this is going to cause abnormal wear I need to
    know. I typically ride 200-400 miles a week.

    Thanks!

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

    Is it happening at the same place eveytime on the ring? I have had to
    file a tooth on a ring cuz it had a burr on it that made the chain do
    what the pic looks like it is doing.

  4. Xyzzy said:

    This has me baffled.


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I ride 99% of the time in the small ring. I can only think of 3 or 4
    times, since I bought the bike, where I have used the big ring. I would
    expect the small ring to wear out long before the large ring. I would
    also expect the cassette to show significant wear before the chain
    rings, and I definitely wouldn't expect to see wear in just a few
    months. I have seen chain rings that are worn to nubs that still worked
    fine.


    <snip>

    Just to be sure I'm reading you right, is it correct thayt:
    1. the bike was bought new
    2. there's about 4000 miles on the bike total
    3. you haven't changed the chain or rings since new
    ?

    It might just be the photo, but the large ring looks fairly tired -
    there does appear to be some pronounced hooking on the teeth.
    I know this doesn't tie in with what you said about milage etc., it jut
    looks that way in the photo. Beats me how it could happen though...

    If the teeth are significantly hooked, I'd suggest changing the ring(s)
    when changing the chain. I'd also have a good look at the cassette,
    and see if all is well there.

    I think that the generally accepted wisdom is the more worn components
    wear down new components faster than would be the case on all new
    components, eg new chain on old rings -> accelerated chain wear ->
    accelerated cassette wear. Everything gets worn down fairly quickly to
    the level of the most worn component in the drivetrain.

    You might also take the chance to change the tooth count on one or both
    of your rings. If, as you say, you only use the large ring very
    occasionally, the whole thing might be geared a little high for you,
    and a smaller big ring might give you a more usable set of gears
    overall.

    HTH,

    bookieb.

  5. Xyzzy (aka PLUGH) Michael Vang said:

    This has me baffled.

    Quoted message said:

    Here is a picture:

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    I just replaced the chain on my bike. It had approximately 4000
    miles on it. I never had any problem with it, except over the last
    1000 miles it got slightly more noisy. It shifted perfectly and was
    a breeze to tune. My Park CC-2 told me it was .5% worn, so I
    decided to replace it. I don't have any calipers or machine rule to
    measure wear with, just the CC-2.

    Quoted message said:

    Any ideas are appreciated! I really don't want to have to replace the
    whole drivetrain so if this is going to cause abnormal wear I need to
    know. I typically ride 200-400 miles a week.

    The picture you offer shows a worn out chain on a practically new
    chainwheel. You'll notice that in the picture the chain is almost a
    quarter inch off pitch in half the circumference of the sprocket (at
    the bottom). Where did you get such a worn chain and why are you
    using it?

    Get a standard SRAM chain suitable for the width of your gears.

    Jobst Brandt

  6. Quoted message said:

    Xyzzy (aka PLUGH) Michael Vang writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    The picture you offer shows a worn out chain on a practically new
    chainwheel. You'll notice that in the picture the chain is almost a
    quarter inch off pitch in half the circumference of the sprocket (at
    the bottom). Where did you get such a worn chain and why are you
    using it?

    The chainrings look rather worn out as well if you look closely at
    the shape of the teeth (although some of them do still seem quite
    symmetrical).

  7. The new chain is the exact same make and model (C10 Ultra) as the one
    that came with the bike...

    I rode the bike today for 100 miles and everything worked perfectly...
    I didn't use the big ring since I never do... The small ring was silky
    smooth and dead silent... Shifting was perfect as well and it never
    skipped even under extreme climbing loads in (nearly) every gear...

    Pedalling slowly backwards in the big ring here at home, off the bike,
    the riding up on the teeth is much less pronounced now... My CC-2 chain
    checker still will not fit into the chain...

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  8. It happens at random parts of the chain ring so I don't think it is a
    burr...

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  9. This is the first time I changed the chain since the bike was new...
    The bike has been ridden a few hundred miles by a friend of mine but I
    can't see how, even if he used the big ring exclusively, that the big
    ring could have worn out that fast... Aren't chain rings supposed to
    last tens of thousands of miles? And even if it did wear out, why isn't
    anything else ruined, like the small ring or the cassette? The bike is
    an 05 model... We're not talking about a bike with 20-30,000 miles...

    I only use the 18, 17, 16, 15, 14 and 13 cogs with the small ring...
    Those gears are all I need where I live... That range covers me from 0
    to 25 miles per hour... If I ever go faster than that I just coast or
    spin out a bit... I'm a new rider so I am still trying to develop my
    spin... When I started riding last summer I rode in the big ring
    exclusively because I didn't know better... I also have a lot more
    cardiovascular ability than leg strength so I trade big gears for high
    cadence... I've ridden 51 centuries this year so far (I have a lot of
    free time!) and all but a handful of those, from when I first started
    out in January, are under 6 hours solo...

    Even if I wanted to change the size of the front rings, it is (I
    think!) a proprietary design... I could swap the whole deal out for a
    "Hollowgram" carbon compact crank at great expense... I've emailed
    Cannondale repeatedly to ask them if I can use ordinary Campagnolo
    chain rings but I have never received a reply about that...

    To be honest, for my usage patterns, this bike and its gearing suits me
    fine...

  10. Otto-Ville Ronkainen writes:

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The picture you offer shows a worn out chain on a practically new
    chainwheel. You'll notice that in the picture the chain is almost
    a quarter inch off pitch in half the circumference of the sprocket
    (at the bottom). Where did you get such a worn chain and why are
    you using it?

    Quoted message said:

    The chainrings look rather worn out as well if you look closely at
    the shape of the teeth (although some of them do still seem quite
    symmetrical).

    The chainring is essentially new and as the user states has barely any
    mileage. The tooth profile of interest is the silhouette of the tooth,
    not its shiny wear contact or other reflective properties.

    As I mentioned, the chain is off pitch by nearly 1/4 inch where it
    exits at the bottom of the picture. There is no way this disparity
    can be caused by a chainring in any any condition tooth spacing does
    not change with wear. This chain is badly out of pitch... worn out.
    There is no dodging that.

    This chainwheel is worn but still works fine with a new chain:

    http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/zzz_006.jpg

    Jobst Brandt

  11. The chain is brand new... It is not a used chain... The box it came in
    was sealed and it still had that plastic thing at one end to identify
    the special link that has to be connected... It still had the factory
    grease on it... I installed it myself so I am positive about this...

    Worst case scenario, I'll just replace the rings, cassette and chain
    all in one go... Although, since it worked so well today, I'll probably
    wait until what I have is unusable before I do this...

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  12. PS - If it would help with the diagnosis, I can easily remove the chain
    rings and photograph them on a piece of white paper... Let me know if
    this will help and I will do it...

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  13. Michael Vang said:

    The chain is brand new... It is not a used chain... The box it came
    in was sealed and it still had that plastic thing at one end to
    identify the special link that has to be connected... It still had
    the factory grease on it... I installed it myself so I am positive
    about this...

    Picture: http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg
    Picture: http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/zzz_006.jpg

    The chain in the first picture is out of pitch. Someone must have
    cleverly traded his used chain for a new one in that box before you
    got it. Otherwise how can you explain that the chain is almost a half
    pitch ahead of where it ought to be where it exits from the large
    chainwheel in your picture. Believe me, that chain is out of pitch.
    Please stretch the chain on the floor with a ruler next to it with an
    inch mark aligned with the center of a pin, so we can see a photograph
    of a 12" section.

    I suppose you are aware that the standard ruler is the best chain
    gauge you can get. It can't be fooled.

    Quoted message said:

    Worst case scenario, I'll just replace the rings, cassette and chain
    all in one go... Although, since it worked so well today, I'll
    probably wait until what I have is unusable before I do this...

    Well if money is no obstacle you might add new derailleurs and shift
    levers to that gratuitous purchase. Don't do it, and watch out for
    those "twisty little passages all alike!" not to be confused with
    "twisty little passages all different!" That's amazing.

    Jobst Brandt

  14. Just to clarify, the chain rides up only when I pedal backwards very
    slowly... I assume this is more the rear derailleur spring tension
    being overcome than the pitch of the chain being off... IOW, if this
    was a single speed bike with no slack in the chain this would not
    happen at all, right? If the pitch was off wouldn't the chain fit
    poorly all the way around? And if the pitch was off, wouldn't I have
    poblems with the cassette and small ring? Finally, wouldn't a worn
    chain be longer? The new chain is shorter than the old chain, and the
    old (longer/worn) chain never rode up like this...

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  15. Michael Vang said:

    Just to clarify, the chain rides up only when I pedal backwards very
    slowly... I assume this is more the rear derailleur spring tension
    being overcome than the pitch of the chain being off... IOW, if
    this was a single speed bike with no slack in the chain this would
    not happen at all, right? If the pitch was off wouldn't the chain
    fit poorly all the way around? And if the pitch was off, wouldn't I
    have problems with the cassette and small ring? Finally, wouldn't a
    worn chain be longer? The new chain is shorter than the old chain,
    and the old (longer/worn) chain never rode up like this...

    The chain in your picture got where it is from forward pedaling and
    the incoming chain lands in the root of the first tooth. Thereafter,
    because it is tensioned by the rear derailleur and it has a longer
    pitch than 1/2 inch that the chainwheel has, it climbs out of
    engagement and rides over the teeth of the sprocket.

    As you can see from the chainwheel picture I offered, worn teeth are
    obvious and as I mentioned, will work with a new chain that is
    in-pitch (1/2 inch). If you have the time to do so, pleas post a
    picture of the chain lying stretched adjacent to a yardstick or other
    inch rule.

    The chins shown in you picture also has exaggerated wear marks on the
    side plates as though it had been ridding in horrible chain alignment
    as would occur with riding small sprocket to small chainwheel or the
    opposite. I have never seen a chain with such worn side plates.

    Jobst Brandt

  16. I don't have a metal rule, but here are some pictures with a wooden
    rule... I have no idea what effect humidity and stuff has had on the
    ruler but it matches up exactly with my metal tape measure... I would
    have used the metal tape measure for this but I don't have enough hands
    to hold the ruler taut and flat, the camera and the chain...

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/oldchain1.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/oldchain12.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/newchain1.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/newchain12.jpg

    I was not able to remove the new chain because it is joined with a
    one-time link pin... I hope this is okay...

    I'm not the kind of guy who buys stuff for no reason... In fact, I am
    pretty frugal... I'd only buy a new complete drivetrain if the existing
    one was ruined... I definitely wouldn't play around with replacing
    individual parts and then ruining those parts when they mesh with the
    old parts... I'd rather just start fresh with a clean slate and do it
    right, if that is what is needed to be done...

    My overwhelming priority is to make this bike servicable and safe... It
    is far from being a hangar queen...

    BTW, I am aware that a ruler is the best way to measure a chain, but
    the CC-2 is so convenient... If I find the CC-2 has been wrong all
    along I will be pretty bummed out...

    http://www.parktool.com/tools/CC_2.shtml

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  17. Quoted message said:

    The chain in the first picture is out of pitch.

    Could the new chain be out of tolerance, and slightly too short?
    Surely, this would be most inclined to show up as skipping on
    the largest chainring.

    John

  18. Quoted message said:

    The chins shown in you picture also has exaggerated wear marks on the
    side plates as though it had been ridding in horrible chain alignment
    as would occur with riding small sprocket to small chainwheel or the
    opposite. I have never seen a chain with such worn side plates.

    Which picture? This one?

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/skip.jpg

    That is the new chain! How can the side plates be worn? When I opened
    the box, it had the official Campy seal on it, the plastic thingy on
    the end to mark the special link hole, the factory grease and it was
    like 114 links long... How could this be a used chain?

    I'm lost here!

    🙂

    --
    Mike (Xyzzy)

  19. Michael Vang said:

    I don't have a metal rule, but here are some pictures with a wooden
    rule... I have no idea what effect humidity and stuff has had on the
    ruler but it matches up exactly with my metal tape measure... I
    would have used the metal tape measure for this but I don't have
    enough hands to hold the ruler taut and flat, the camera and the
    chain...

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/oldchain1.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/oldchain12.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/newchain1.jpg
    http://www.teamendorphin.com/jpg/newchain12.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    I was not able to remove the new chain because it is joined with a
    one-time link pin... I hope this is okay...

    This is not OK. I understand now that the measurement method is not
    adequately defined. Lay the chain out flat on a wooden floor with a
    ruler, yard stick or other inch graduated rule having its markings
    touching the side of the chain:

    O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O==O <- chain
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | <- ruler
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
    STANLEY (INCH RULE)
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Take a picture of this arrangement from at least four feet distance
    with the lens zoomed in to show at least 10 inches of chain. A new
    chain should appear like the diagram above with a pin/roller at every
    1/2 inch mark. That is what needs to be observed 10 inches from the
    initial alignment point.

    Quoted message said:

    BTW, I am aware that a ruler is the best way to measure a chain, but
    the CC-2 is so convenient... If I find the CC-2 has been wrong all
    along I will be pretty bummed out...

    From you pictures I take it you don't use the ruler method because
    the pictures do not show the measurement of interest.

    http://www.parktool.com/tools/CC_2.shtml

    It measures too short a distance to give a good sample of chain and it
    must be engaged in the correct roller pair.

    Jobst Brandt

  20. John Henderson said:
    Quoted message said:

    The chain in the first picture is out of pitch.

    Quoted message said:

    Could the new chain be out of tolerance, and slightly too short?
    Surely, this would be most inclined to show up as skipping on the
    largest chainring.

    No. It is not possible to make a chain that is out of pitch with the
    machines that make chains. There may be a botched link in there that
    would come around in what seems to be a random manner, the chain
    length not being any multiple of the crank rotation.

    Jobst Brandt

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.