Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

Nic,

Sounds like you have too much money. Want an Upland Giant Ladies for the wife? See below, I have option it up with agricultural tyres if you like it.. 😎

Not really. She also has a Yukon.

It's not a matter of too much money. I think I said I would let stuff wear out (????). I have asked a few people and may have lost track. But when I do option, I don't want to end up in a $$ mess.

ANyway, your road bike's retailed at the price of two Yukons!:eek:

Sorry about all that. I guess there may have been others out there who were overwhelmed by the marketing hype and were willing to share ideas.

BTW. I asked Sheldon Brown. He has a lot say about what he wants to say, but backs away real fast if you ask.

eg

He has a lot to say about HG vs IG Shimano stuff, but when I asked, he said he uses Sram...therefore "no comment". That's fine. That's his choice.

But it annoys me that it does not stop him posting a lot of _stuff_ about Shimano....until pressed.

OldNickToo said:

Sorry about all that. I guess there may have been others out there who were overwhelmed by the marketing hype and were willing to share ideas.

BTW. I asked Sheldon Brown. He has a lot say about what he wants to say, but backs away real fast if you ask.

eg

He has a lot to say about HG vs IG Shimano stuff, but when I asked, he said he uses Sram...therefore "no comment". That's fine. That's his choice.

But it annoys me that it does not stop him posting a lot of _stuff_ about Shimano....until pressed.

ooh hooo, only an Aussie would take on the man that is Sheldon Brown!! Go Aussie!!

FWIW I would stick with Shimano for the most part in your case. IG and HG are (as far as I am aware) 8 and 9 speed versions of pretty much the same thing. Sheldon probably has some deep depth analysis of the two but I have used both with few problems.

here is my recommendation:
Keep your mechs shimano as your mechs have to be compaible with your shifters which are almost certainly shimano at the moment. Change one mech, change the shifter. Shifters for the most part come in pairs so you would therefore have to change the other mech to have the shifters the same. Using one SRAM mech and one shimano mech would confuse the hell out of me so I just would not go there! So stick with shimano for your shifters and mechs.

Chainwise you can use pretty much any 8speed chain out there. Sram are the best I have found as they are less prone to breakage, the rivets can be reused so long as you don;t drive it out completely, and they use the powerlink system which makes it a piece of [censored] to get the chain on and off. Very useful if you offroad and need to clean it etc.

Chainset wise, I would ignore shimano as their chainrings are made out of soft chocolate after a warm day in the sunshine. Sram chainsets are sold under the "Truvativ" label and some of these are pretty decent if a tad on the heavy side. Personally I prefer Raceface or (to a lesser extent) FSA. Chainring wise, you can either replace the chainrings that come on the cranks with 8 speed ones but in all honesty the difference is pretty negligible in my experience (you might notice a "SLIGHT" shifting performance issue but unless you have top end spec components you probably won't notice).

Bottom bracket wise you have the choice between ISIS (non-shimano), Octalink (shimano) and the new hollowtech II (shimano), giga-pipe (truvativ) or X-type (Racerace) external BB type. You need to make this decision before you buy cranks. personally I have just switched to Raceface X-Type in the hope that the bottom brackets will last a bit longer, but this is offset but an initial higher outlay cost for the crank and I know you guys pay plenty for components in Oz. All the hollowtech II, giga-pipe and x-type BBs are compatible with one another and the raceface ones are supposed to be good. If you go ISIS, my advice is to buy a cheapish branded one and expect it to wear out. If you don't already know, learn to fit them yourself as this will save a fortune long term.

In terms of how far to go in the range, I would suggest XT if you are prepared to spend. In my opinion it is significantly betetr than LX for not a huge extra markup. The step from XT to XTR is not really worth it (except for vee brakes) and the price jump is huge.

The other (much more expensive) alternative, is to rip off existing cranks, mechs, cassette (your hubs will be the right width) and shifters, and replace with an XT 9speed gruppo (but i would say steer away from shimano cranks because of the rings) but this would not be cheap.

I hope this has helped and that I have not been smarmy. I don't work in the industry and don't have any axe to grind against any company.

Dave

I have attempted to break up and deal with your reply. I hope my quoting system works....however. Excellent reply, which is why I wanted to do it justice.

However, there are still more questions.

davebee said:

ooh hooo, only an Aussie would take on the man that is Sheldon Brown!! Go Aussie!!

I will assume he's a busy man and leave it at that <G>....there really is a lot of useful stuff on his sites.

davebee said:

FWIW I would stick with Shimano for the most part in your case. IG and HG are (as far as I am aware) 8 and 9 speed versions of pretty much the same thing. Sheldon probably has some deep depth analysis of the two but I have used both with few problems.
here is my recommendation:
Keep your mechs shimano as your mechs have to be compaible with your shifters which are almost certainly shimano at the moment. Change one mech, change the shifter. Shifters for the most part come in pairs so you would therefore have to change the other mech to have the shifters the same. Using one SRAM mech and one shimano mech would confuse the hell out of me so I just would not go there! So stick with shimano for your shifters and mechs.

Ok. _This_ is good stuff! I was wondering if Shimano mechs (if I may borrow that useful term <G>😉 could be used with Sram etc cassettes/chainring setups. I agree about having both halves the same make. Makes sense.

davebee said:

Chainwise you can use pretty much any 8speed chain out there. Sram are the best I have found as they are less prone to breakage, the rivets can be reused so long as you don;t drive it out completely, and they use the powerlink system which makes it a piece of [censored] to get the chain on and off. Very useful if you offroad and need to clean it etc.

Chainset wise, I would ignore shimano as their chainrings are made out of soft chocolate after a warm day in the sunshine. Sram chainsets are sold under the "Truvativ" label and some of these are pretty decent if a tad on the heavy side. Personally I prefer Raceface or (to a lesser extent) FSA.

Ahah! Truvativ. That explains why I was not seeing much Sram stuff in chainrings. I must say I was looking at Sram mainly because you can take the chain off for cleaning etc. Shimano's idea is daft. I don't mind heavy. The chainrings I have now are considered "low end" mainly because they are all steel, but that suits me fine.

davebee said:

Chainring wise, you can either replace the chainrings that come on the cranks with 8 speed ones but in all honesty the difference is pretty negligible in my experience (you might notice a "SLIGHT" shifting performance issue but unless you have top end spec components you probably won't notice).

Sorry. I am not quite sure what yuou mean here. AFAIK I have an 8-speed setup. Do you mean replace them with a better set, but I will not really see a dofference until I hit top end? I have seena couple of comments that using XT-level stuff did make a difference. However, given your chocolate and hot days comments, I am concerned about that. MTBR had some reviews of XT chainrings and they were frequently bagged for being soft and wearing fast or bending.

davebee said:

Bottom bracket wise you have the choice between ISIS (non-shimano), Octalink (shimano) and the new hollowtech II (shimano), giga-pipe (truvativ) or X-type (Racerace) external BB type. You need to make this decision before you buy cranks. personally I have just switched to Raceface X-Type in the hope that the bottom brackets will last a bit longer, but this is offset but an initial higher outlay cost for the crank and I know you guys pay plenty for components in Oz. All the hollowtech II, giga-pipe and x-type BBs are compatible with one another and the raceface ones are supposed to be good. If you go ISIS, my advice is to buy a cheapish branded one and expect it to wear out. If you don't already know, learn to fit them yourself as this will save a fortune long term.

For an old fart, I am pretty tough on bottom brackets and pedals etc. I have not destroyed one yet, but I have only been riding for a while. I'm not a jumper or dropper to talk of, but where we ride there are many (many many) rocks, and I often land a pedal or chainring on them. Often there is one other alternative...walk <G>. This is a heck of a jar, even if I am "riding light" and up off the saddle. So tough is good. I will probably avoid ISIS. OOI, Why do you suggest buying cheap ISIS and expecting failure? I will certainly be getting tools together and learning how to fix as much of the bike as I can. To me that's part of it.

davebee said:

In terms of how far to go in the range, I would suggest XT if you are prepared to spend. In my opinion it is significantly betetr than LX for not a huge extra markup. The step from XT to XTR is not really worth it (except for vee brakes) and the price jump is huge.

The other (much more expensive) alternative, is to rip off existing cranks, mechs, cassette (your hubs will be the right width) and shifters, and replace with an XT 9speed gruppo (but i would say steer away from shimano cranks because of the rings) but this would not be cheap.

I am certainly prepared to spend to get quality. Don't get me wrong! I'm not about to throw it about (I bought a Yukon <G>😉 but I can see the sense of getting good gear if it means better biking. Everyone says the Yukon frame _deserves_ better! <G>

However, as you say, going the whole hog is $$.

I am assuming you should not use Sram chain on Shimano cogs etc? That is something I am still not sure about. I gather the chainrings are more touchy than the cassettes??? (cringes) Or can I use Sram/Truvativ (or say, Raceface) chainrings and somebody else'e chain etc.? Sorry. That may open a can of worms. Best to stay with one maker?

I would prefer to stay 8-speed until the industry forces me to do otherwise by providing no choice!

Sram seem to offer more choices still in the 8-speed range, and plenty of people like yourself are saying go Sram (or more to the point, avoid Shimano...sad).

So is there an "XT equivalent" in Sram; that level that is not the $$top, but is better?

davebee said:

I hope this has helped and that I have not been smarmy. I don't work in the industry and don't have any axe to grind against any company.

Dave

Heck no! _I_ hope I am not coming back and abusing your input by simply asking more!

Hey! My quote breaks worked!😎

Nic, call Shimano in Sydney and ask them to post you a 2005 Bicycle Components Trade Sales and Support Manual. It will make life really easy in seeing what is compatible with what. 😄

Now that sounds like a good idea! Thanks.

Have you seen the For Sale Topics here? http://perthmtb.com//modules.php?name=Forums

Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

OldNickToo said:

I will assume he's a busy man and leave it at that <G>....there really is a lot of useful stuff on his sites.

sheldons site is very good.

OldNickToo said:

I was wondering if Shimano mechs (if I may borrow that useful term <G>😉 could be used with Sram etc cassettes/chainring setups. I agree about having both halves the same make.

as long as the mechs and shifters are the same make, you can mix and match. This is due to the cable pull ratios that shimano and sram use being different. Thereofre the shifter should be the same make as the mech. The rest you can mix and match.

OldNickToo said:

Ahah! Truvativ. That explains why I was not seeing much Sram stuff in chainrings. I must say I was looking at Sram mainly because you can take the chain off for cleaning etc. Shimano's idea is daft. I don't mind heavy. The chainrings I have now are considered "low end" mainly because they are all steel, but that suits me fine.

get steel or titanium chainrings. ti is not lighter but it is stronger. (cycledynamics make them)

OldNickToo said:

Sorry. I am not quite sure what yuou mean here. AFAIK I have an 8-speed setup. Do you mean replace them with a better set, but I will not really see a dofference until I hit top end? I have seena couple of comments that using XT-level stuff did make a difference. However, given your chocolate and hot days comments, I am concerned about that. MTBR had some reviews of XT chainrings and they were frequently bagged for being soft and wearing fast or bending.

The difference between 8 and 9 speed is NOT one of quality it is to do with the WIDTH of components. 9 speed uses narrower cassette cogs, basically so they can fit so many on the hub and not affect the wheel strength too much. The chains are also narrower and therefore it makes sense to reduce the chainring width. Since 9spd is the indutsry standard, a chainset will come with 9spd chainrings which are slightly narrower. Your wider 8spd chain will fit but there will be some slack at the sides but you will not notice this unless you spec really highly. (Due to manufacturing tolerences within the ranges other thignas will be more noticeable) I am using an 8spd chain on 9spd chainset. Shimano cranks are good. Shimano chainrings are not. Raceface cranks are good, raceface chainrings are good. truvativ cranks are good but heavy, can;t comment on chainrings as not used.

OldNickToo said:

For an old fart, I am pretty tough on bottom brackets and pedals etc. I have not destroyed one yet, but I have only been riding for a while. I'm not a jumper or dropper to talk of, but where we ride there are many (many many) rocks, and I often land a pedal or chainring on them. Often there is one other alternative...walk <G>. This is a heck of a jar, even if I am "riding light" and up off the saddle. So tough is good. I will probably avoid ISIS. OOI, Why do you suggest buying cheap ISIS and expecting failure? I will certainly be getting tools together and learning how to fix as much of the bike as I can. To me that's part of it.

if you buy cheap, it is cheap to replace. Better to replace a £20 component 3 times a year than a £60 one twice a year. Go with the X-type and I don't think yuo will be dissappointed. BBs are the equivalent in price to a mid range ISIS but there is less choice at the moment.

OldNickToo said:

I am certainly prepared to spend to get quality. Don't get me wrong! I'm not about to throw it about (I bought a Yukon <G>😉 but I can see the sense of getting good gear if it means better biking. Everyone says the Yukon frame _deserves_ better! <G>

good gear makes for a more enjoyable ride, thats for sure.

OldNickToo said:

However, as you say, going the whole hog is $$.

it is!!!!

OldNickToo said:

I am assuming you should not use Sram chain on Shimano cogs etc? That is something I am still not sure about. I gather the chainrings are more touchy than the cassettes??? (cringes) Or can I use Sram/Truvativ (or say, Raceface) chainrings and somebody else'e chain etc.? Sorry. That may open a can of worms. Best to stay with one maker?

they say you shouldn't, but i use an Sram chain and shimano mechs. never noticed.

OldNickToo said:

I would prefer to stay 8-speed until the industry forces me to do otherwise by providing no choice!

do that then!!

OldNickToo said:

Sram seem to offer more choices still in the 8-speed range, and plenty of people like yourself are saying go Sram (or more to the point, avoid Shimano...sad).

make the decision on the absis of which shifter you prefer as the emch is just the shifters slave. personally i prefer the shiamno shifters so i also use shimano mechs.

OldNickToo said:

So is there an "XT equivalent" in Sram; that level that is not the $$top, but is better?

X-9 I think but I might be wrong.

FWIW I use XT shifters, Xt mechs, sram chain, Sram cassette and raceface chainrings. Hope this helps.

david

Nic, call Shimano in Sydney and ask them to post you a 2005 Bicycle Components Trade Sales and Support Manual

Just thought I'd let you know that I called Shimano North America today and asked for the manual. They said only dealers could get them. There are "Trade Secrets" in it....duh, I might learn to change my own wheels or something.😠

I guess your name is not Nic and you called someone other than Sydney. 🙄

Try your local bike shop for an old copy of last years (2005) manual. 🙂

Thanks George!🙄

[quote="davebee"]Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

Firstly. Sorry for not replying. I had notify by email etc set up, but dod not see this reply or any subsequent. Sorry.
Bad Web.... Bad bad Web!
.then I was in the middle of this, and the power went out. SO now I am working in Notepad and saving often.

davebee said:

Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

davebee said:

sheldons site is very good.

davebee said:

as long as the mechs and shifters are the same make, you can mix and match. This is due to the cable pull ratios that shimano and sram use being different. Thereofre the
shifter should be the same make as the mech. The rest you can mix and match.

davebee said:

get steel or titanium chainrings. ti is not lighter but it is stronger. (cycledynamics make them)

davebee said:

The difference between 8 and 9 speed is NOT one of quality it is to do with the WIDTH of components. 9 speed uses narrower cassette cogs, basically so they can fit so
many on the hub and not affect the wheel strength too much. The chains are also narrower and therefore it makes sense to reduce the chainring width. Since 9spd is the
indutsry standard, a chainset will come with 9spd chainrings which are slightly narrower. Your wider 8spd chain will fit but there will be some slack at the sides but you will
not notice this unless you spec really highly. (Due to manufacturing tolerences within the ranges other thignas will be more noticeable) I am using an 8spd chain on 9spd
chainset. Shimano cranks are good. Shimano chainrings are not. Raceface cranks are good, raceface chainrings are good. truvativ cranks are good but heavy, can;t
comment on chainrings as not used.

Quoted post said:

if you buy cheap, it is cheap to replace. Better to replace a £20 component 3 times a year than a £60 one twice a year. Go with the X-type and I don't think yuo will be
dissappointed. BBs are the equivalent in price to a mid range ISIS but there is less choice at the moment.

Quoted post said:

good gear makes for a more enjoyable ride, thats for sure.

Quoted post said:

they say you shouldn't, but i use an Sram chain and shimano mechs. never noticed.

Quoted post said:

make the decision on the absis of which shifter you prefer as the emch is just the shifters slave. personally i prefer the shiamno shifters so i also use shimano mechs.
X-9 I think but I might be wrong.

Quoted post said:

FWIW I use XT shifters, Xt mechs, sram chain, Sram cassette and raceface chainrings. Hope this helps.

Nic,

I get my TA Chainrings from Greenspeed Vic, the outers and middles 130/110 all come with pins and ramps. The inners, 110 or 74 do not! 😄

gclark8 said:

Nic,

I get my TA Chainrings from Greenspeed Vic, the outers and middles 130/110 all come with pins and ramps. The inners, 110 or 74 do not! 😄

hmm...Okay. weird. That was the specific thing against them in the review(s?) I read.

Not much point in the inner rings I guess <G>

Anyway. Thanks for that.

gclark8 said:

Nic,

I get my TA Chainrings from Greenspeed Vic, the outers and middles 130/110 all come with pins and ramps. The inners, 110 or 74 do not! 😄

Sorry. I guess I should ask. Is this road or offroad, and how do you find them to ride with?

OldNickToo said:

Sorry. I guess I should ask. Is this road or offroad, and how do you find them to ride with?

Geees Nic,

Are you ridin yours on the cranks?? :eek:

I thought it only mattered (road or offroad) for the tyres. 🙂

gclark8 said:

Geees Nic,

Are you ridin yours on the cranks?? :eek:

I thought it only mattered (road or offroad) for the tyres. 🙂

Not quite sure what you mean about the cranks..😕

I suppose I should be thinking cassettes rather than CRs, but offroad I find myself having to change gears a lot more under "surprising" conditions. I ride very winding singletracks. So it's downhill, over two rocks (that's things not the place George!<G>😉 then have to brake to turn right angles round a tree and push back uphill. If I am to get any peadlled speed down the first hill, then I need to change either halfway around the corner, (or I forget and need to change gping up :-< )

But yes, it's rear changes, not front, that are like this.