Catridge bearing headset

Rik O'Shea said:

Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
bearing headset ?

Thanks & regards

Cart bearinmgs are just little units that consist of ball bearings, a
'cone' or inner race and a 'cup' or outer race..but the basic concept
is the same as loose ball type headsets(or hubs or bottom brackets) so
yes, you can pit a cart bearing HS.

Rik O'Shea said:

Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
bearing headset ?

Thanks & regards

"pitted" like corrosion or "pitted" like brinelling?

answer is "yes" on both, but regarding the latter, the sealed bearing is
usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
time line compared to traditional headsets.

do you have a specific instance you want to discuss?

jim beam said:

the sealed bearing is
usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
time line compared to traditional headsets.

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Rik O'Shea said:

Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
bearing headset ?

Commonly.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

M-gineering said:

jim beam said:

the sealed bearing is usually a quality bearing steel which resists
true brinelling better, and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed
against contaminant to resist false brinelling and wear - so the
process is pushed way out the time line compared to traditional headsets.

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease.

cheapo bearing like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/
can indeed be a problem for seals. but good bearings have good seals
and that doesn't happen.

Quoted message said:

If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life.

my mavic cosmos wheels with sealed bearings have been a good deal better
in the rain than my shimano wheels on the same commute. in fact, i
haven't had to touch them in 4 winters.

Quoted message said:

Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee 😉

so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

Yes, that can happen. It happened to the Deore XT headset on my Bike Friday.
As an initial fix attempt, I just swapped the top and bottom bearings, and
could no longer notice the problem - and still can't notice it several years
later. The replacement set of bearings that I ordered at the time is still
sitting in a drawer waiting to be used...

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
bearing headset ?

Thanks & regards

jim beam said:

so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

n=1 isn't data

Maybe US types don't have PROPER [tm] rain. I know I have to be stocked
up on bearings by april for when the racers start coming in with the
latest cool stuff
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

M-gineering said:

jim beam said:

the sealed bearing is
usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
time line compared to traditional headsets.

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

'Should be called 'cartridge bearings', not 'sealed cartridge
bearings'. Easier(cheaper) to make the hub, for instance, w/o a race
for bearings, just a little shelf for the bearing and no need to worry
about the quality of the bearing/cone/cup parts...THEN marketeers get
ahold of it and 'sell' the cyclist on all it's 'advantages'...like so
much else 'bicycle'. Interesting that all the hubbub about ceramic, to
make this BB or that 'smoother' and easier turning, none of which
approach the ease of movement of a well made cup and ball...marketinmg
marches on......

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

M-gineering said:

jim beam said:

the sealed bearing is usually a quality bearing steel which resists
true brinelling better, and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed
against contaminant to resist false brinelling and wear - so the
process is pushed way out the time line compared to traditional

headsets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease.

cheapo bearing like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/
can indeed be a problem for seals. but good bearings have good seals
and that doesn't happen.

Quoted message said:

If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life.

my mavic cosmos wheels with sealed bearings have been a good deal better
in the rain than my shimano wheels on the same commute. in fact, i
haven't had to touch them in 4 winters.

Quoted message said:

Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee 😉

so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

Have to agree with Jim here. My Mavic Expert wheels with FTS hubs have at
least 35,000 miles on them. Original bearings, back ones are due for
replacement, there is a little lateral play that can't be adjusted out. Both
front and rear are smooth. I pull the cassette body every couple of years
and clean and lube the pawls. It is still smooth. Never touched the
bearings, just ridden a lot in loads of awful weather over the years.
Good cartridges are for riding, on and on and on.................
Bill

M-gineering said:

jim beam said:

so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

n=1 isn't data

Maybe US types don't have PROPER [tm] rain.

i guess it doesn't count as "rain" if it never hits the ground, just
travels sideways?

Quoted message said:

I know I have to be stocked
up on bearings by april for when the racers start coming in with the
latest cool stuff

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com said:

M-gineering said:

jim beam said:

the sealed bearing is
usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
time line compared to traditional headsets.

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

'Should be called 'cartridge bearings', not 'sealed cartridge
bearings'. Easier(cheaper) to make the hub, for instance, w/o a race
for bearings, just a little shelf for the bearing and no need to worry
about the quality of the bearing/cone/cup parts...THEN marketeers get
ahold of it and 'sell' the cyclist on all it's 'advantages'...like so
much else 'bicycle'. Interesting that all the hubbub about ceramic, to
make this BB or that 'smoother' and easier turning, none of which
approach the ease of movement of a well made cup and ball...marketinmg
marches on......

of course, ceramics!!! marten, use ceramics. they don't rust. no problem.

M-gineering said:

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months.

You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.

Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
or throw them away.

Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.

Doug Taylor said:

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:47:31 +0200, M-gineering

Quoted message said:

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months.

You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.

Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
or throw them away.

Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com said:

Doug Taylor said:

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:47:31 +0200, M-gineering

Quoted message said:

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months.

You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.

Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
or throw them away.

Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
[and /very/ expensive].

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
[and /very/ expensive].

Fits FSA external bb:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:27:57 -0700, "Qui si parla

Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com said:

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Unless they are stainless steel:

http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=bearings&Product_Code=Kit7173&Category_Code=

Fits FSA external bb

Doug Taylor said:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Quoted message said:

those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
[and /very/ expensive].

Fits FSA external bb:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com said:

Doug Taylor said:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
[and /very/ expensive].

Quoted message said:

Fits FSA external bb:

Quoted message said:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.

Or, if yer really worried about water damage to your BB, open the
wallet and spring for a Phil Wood BB and an appropriate crank. Problem
solved.

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Sep 9, 4:35 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"

Quoted message said:

On Sep 9, 8:53 am, Doug Taylor <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
>> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
>[and /very/ expensive].

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fits FSA external bb:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

Quoted message said:

'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.

Or, if yer really worried about water damage to your BB, open the
wallet and spring for a Phil Wood BB and an appropriate crank. Problem
solved.

Have a Phil on my wet weather Merckx, a 1986 cup and ball on my dry
Merckx.