Cathy O'Dowd

"Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I attended one of her lectures last night, focussing on her Everest
expeditions.

Apart from being an amazing woman in her own right, I felt that the key
to this was her superb account of the May 1996 Everest disaster and her
part in it. Very interesting to hear her version of the South African
teams actions, which were heavily criticised in 'Into Thin Air' and
since by others.

If you can, I urge you to go and see her - her attitude to climbing,
adventure and life is very inspirational and really is one I definitely
relate to.

A very honest approach that has rattled some of the male egos in the
climbing and adventure world.

Good on her!

Steve

I wouldn't give her a penny of my money and if her attitude towards climbing
is inspirational, then I hope I'm never on a mountain with you.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't give her a penny of my money and if her attitude towards climbing
is inspirational, then I hope I'm never on a mountain with you.

OK - that's opened the debate up.

Why do you say that then?

Steve

"Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't give her a penny of my money and if her attitude towards

climbing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is inspirational, then I hope I'm never on a mountain with you.

OK - that's opened the debate up.

Why do you say that then?

Steve

Being brief here because I'm at work.
I've read two books, and seen one documentary about this. She was
interviewed in the documentary and given the chance to justify herself. Now,
I was all ears at this point because we all know what happens when people
jump on the blame bandwagon without listening to both sides (e.g. Simon
Yates).
However, what she had to say for herself was, in my opinion, bollocks. She
offered help but wasn't willing to risk her life in a rescue attempt
(understandable, but I don't think I could do nothing), but when asked for a
radio (? IIRC) she refused. What kind of help was she offering then? Maybe a
brew for the few that managed to get back alive? Pfft!
It just seems like she wasn't willing to give ANYTHING up to risk her summit
atempt - I just don't agree with that. It's only a mountain, it's supposed
to be about adventure, watching people die when you might just have been
able to make a difference isn't all that adventurous in my opinion; it's
selfish beyond words.

Then there was that woman she left to die. As it said in some book I've
forgotten the title of (possibly Into thin air) ANYBODY with a slightest bit
of compasion would have stayed with the poor girl until she at least lost
conciousness. Now, I didn't get to hear her version of that incident but
going off her other interview, I'm sure it will contradict everyone else's
opinion.

As the popular saying goes, There's no "[censored] you all I'm bagging the summit"
in team.

Nathan

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

In 1996 she was on Everest, a few good men (from various expeditions) got

in

Quoted message said:

trouble high up and a rescue effort was launched, while people were

risking

Quoted message said:

their lives by going back out into a nasty storm above 8000m (IIRC), she

was

Quoted message said:

toasty warm in her tent. Now, I need to re read some stuff but from what I
remember, the rescue team had dead batteries in their radio, so they asked
her if they could borrow a radio from the SA team, she refused.
A lot of people ended up dead at the end of it (and at least three great
books have been written about it) and whilst I'm fairly sure that the

radio

Quoted message said:

wouldn't of saved the climbers, it would have made the situation slightly
easier. Selfish. ;o)
Oh, then again, same mountain, different route, she came accross a dying
woman. She was, in fairness, probably too high up to rescue, but she was
still concious and 5-10 minutes sat with her for her last moments or maybe
just to pass a message to her son isn't much to ask, is it?

It's interesting to compare and contrast the 1996 events with the recent
episode of "Challenge" we were talking about. In Challenge we had a chap who
was fit but lacked the motivation to take such a huge risk. In 1996 we had
on the mountain a whole host of people who had the motivation but arguably
(or not?) lacked the skills and experience to look after themselves when the
going got tough.

I don't which books you read on the subject, but if you haven't read "The
Climb" by "Amatoli Boukreev" you should. He came in for a lot of stick in
"Into thin Air" and it's interesting to read the story from his perspective.

Mind you, the SA team were a "bit odd" weren't they?

Roy.

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Steve said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't give her a penny of my money and if her attitude towards climbing
is inspirational, then I hope I'm never on a mountain with you.

Quoted message said:

OK - that's opened the debate up.

Why do you say that then?

And who is she? Proper enjoyment of a spirited debate requires context
🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't give her a penny of my money and if her attitude towards

climbing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is inspirational, then I hope I'm never on a mountain with you.

Quoted message said:

OK - that's opened the debate up.

Why do you say that then?

And who is she? Proper enjoyment of a spirited debate requires context
🙂

heh.

In 1996 she was on Everest, a few good men (from various expeditions) got in
trouble high up and a rescue effort was launched, while people were risking
their lives by going back out into a nasty storm above 8000m (IIRC), she was
toasty warm in her tent. Now, I need to re read some stuff but from what I
remember, the rescue team had dead batteries in their radio, so they asked
her if they could borrow a radio from the SA team, she refused.
A lot of people ended up dead at the end of it (and at least three great
books have been written about it) and whilst I'm fairly sure that the radio
wouldn't of saved the climbers, it would have made the situation slightly
easier. Selfish. ;o)
Oh, then again, same mountain, different route, she came accross a dying
woman. She was, in fairness, probably too high up to rescue, but she was
still concious and 5-10 minutes sat with her for her last moments or maybe
just to pass a message to her son isn't much to ask, is it?

Treefrog said:

Quoted message said:

And who is she? Proper enjoyment of a spirited debate requires context
🙂

heh.

In 1996 she was on Everest, a few good men (from various expeditions) got in
trouble high up and a rescue effort was launched, while people were risking
their lives by going back out into a nasty storm above 8000m (IIRC), she was
toasty warm in her tent. Now, I need to re read some stuff but from what I
remember, the rescue team had dead batteries in their radio, so they asked
her if they could borrow a radio from the SA team, she refused.
A lot of people ended up dead at the end of it (and at least three great
books have been written about it) and whilst I'm fairly sure that the radio
wouldn't of saved the climbers, it would have made the situation slightly
easier. Selfish. ;o)
Oh, then again, same mountain, different route, she came accross a dying
woman. She was, in fairness, probably too high up to rescue, but she was
still concious and 5-10 minutes sat with her for her last moments or maybe
just to pass a message to her son isn't much to ask, is it?

Ahaa - thanks. I'll go and look further in Google.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

"Roy" <roy> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's interesting to compare and contrast the 1996 events with the recent
episode of "Challenge" we were talking about. In Challenge we had a chap

who

Quoted message said:

was fit but lacked the motivation to take such a huge risk. In 1996 we had
on the mountain a whole host of people who had the motivation but arguably
(or not?) lacked the skills and experience to look after themselves when

the

Quoted message said:

going got tough.

Indeed, somebody was taught, for the first time, howto ice climb whilst on
the Everest climb, IIRC. Crazy.

Quoted message said:

I don't which books you read on the subject, but if you haven't read "The
Climb" by "Amatoli Boukreev" you should. He came in for a lot of stick in
"Into thin Air" and it's interesting to read the story from his

perspective.

I haven't, but will now, I'm getting very short of books, thanks for drawing
my attention to it... <goes off to Amazon>. BTW - I believe that on
something as serious at Everest a guide should be to show the way, not
babysit. As I understand it, that's all he was trying to do.

Quoted message said:

Mind you, the SA team were a "bit odd" weren't they?

Heh, all South Africans are a "bit odd", at least all my South African
friends are ;o) The SA team appeared to be total [censored], lying racist
[censored] at that.

I have not taken to her when I have seen her interviewed,
but I have a life long resistance to people who smile too much between
words, so I am may be biased.

Quoted message said:

but when asked for a
radio (? IIRC) she refused.

not completely according to her written account, (Everest Free to
Decide) she/they did not refuse the use of the radio, just refused to
hand it over to others, the said they were happy to be conduits, as
long as they kept physical control of the radio. but the whole account
seems very defensive.

I'd like to ask her about carrying a walkman up everest, that was the
odd bit, I'll carry entertainment with me backpacking, but I just cant
imagine anything other than necessities going up at that altitude

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:03:10 +0000, Carl <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I'd like to ask her about carrying a walkman up everest, that was the
odd bit, I'll carry entertainment with me backpacking, but I just cant
imagine anything other than necessities going up at that altitude

I have to say I don't follow that. I bet even the astonauts found the
view from the window a little boring from time to time, once they'd
grown used to it.

As for the necessities point - surely the weight/size of a Walkman
would be negligible, relative to the rest of a person's kit?

I won't be climbing Everest, more's the pity, but if I was then I'd be
taking music, unless there was a real reason not to.

Just my ten pence 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Quoted message said:

As for the necessities point - surely the weight/size of a Walkman
would be negligible, relative to the rest of a person's kit?

I won't be climbing Everest, more's the pity, but if I was then I'd be
taking music, unless there was a real reason not to.

Even at 4,000m I've felt like chucking my boot laces away. 🙂

I guess your not into cutting the labels out of your clothes or sawing
the toothbrush in half, are you ? well, neither am I, but I will pay
good money to save a few hundred grams, and when you must be pushing
your body to the limit I wouldnt have thought any extra would be
welcome. I sometimes carry walkman like things on backpacks in
Britain, but I wouldnt on something bigger, (unless I had a porter to
carry it.)

"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It just seems like she wasn't willing to give ANYTHING up to risk her

summit

Quoted message said:

atempt - I just don't agree with that.

I can't remember what she's said in TV interviews or what others have
written in books but Ian Woodall was the leader of the South African
expedition. Maybe the decisions about radios and whatever else weren't

down

Quoted message said:

to her personally.

Rubbish, burn her! Witch! Has anybody got a duck? We can do the float test.

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It just seems like she wasn't willing to give ANYTHING up to risk her

summit

Quoted message said:

atempt - I just don't agree with that.

I can't remember what she's said in TV interviews or what others have
written in books but Ian Woodall was the leader of the South African
expedition. Maybe the decisions about radios and whatever else weren't down
to her personally.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:30:32 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK - that's opened the debate up.

Why do you say that then?

And who is she? Proper enjoyment of a spirited debate requires context
🙂

There's alreasy been a few responses and from those, if you've the
time/inclination praps a read of the individual books from Krakauer
and Bookreev might throw some further light. (They are different
perspectives on the same events.

But what's it all about?

The 1996 "season" (autumn iirc) on Everest has already gone down as
one of the most hotly debated in mountaineering history. Not least for
two things; the numbers of inexperienced tourist parties being hauled
up the mountain by paid guides and the numbers of deaths when a severe
storm came in.

There were quite a few "national" groups on Everest at the time all
jostling for space and, to a greater or lesser extent, intent on
furthering their own ends. Some groups were entirely altruistic in
their interaction with others.

The bottom line is that, when the [censored] hit the fan, a lot of people
died (I forget the numbers, but in mountaineering terms [other than
avalanche] it was a huge number to die a the same time). All untimely
deaths are, of course, a tragedy. In this instance the tragedy was
heightened by the lack of experienced personnel (pro rata), the
abilities of some of the others to help and, it would seem, the
willingness for some others to get involved.

For me, its much too much of a mess to even come close to fully
understanding the flow of events as the tragedy unfolded and I would
also say that its not for me, because I wasn't there, to pass any sort
of judgement.

One thing is certain tho', effecting rescue in "the death zone" or
thereabouts (it is rightly called "the death zone"😉 is very, very
difficult.

Slight aside: I think Simon Yates deserves the biggest medal ever made
for even attempting to rescue Joe Simpson, anyone who thinks otherwise
is a complete and utter jar-head.

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
http://www.thenmc.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

NMC website: http://www.thenmc.org.uk

"Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

If you can, I urge you to go and see her - her attitude to climbing,
adventure and life is very inspirational and really is one I definitely
relate to.

If you want to see a *truly* inspirational speaker, see Jamie Andrew. He
was on in Sevenoaks last night and we had to virtually prise the audience
out of their seats in order to bring the Q & A session to a close.

Rob

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:02:48 +0000, SteveO wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

But what's it all about?

The 1996 "season" (autumn iirc) on Everest has already gone down as
one of the most hotly debated in mountaineering history.

<snip good stuff>

Many thanks for the explanation 🙂

Quoted message said:

Slight aside: I think Simon Yates deserves the biggest medal ever made
for even attempting to rescue Joe Simpson, anyone who thinks otherwise
is a complete and utter jar-head.

Hear, hear!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

SteveO said:

One thing is certain tho', effecting rescue in "the death zone" or
thereabouts (it is rightly called "the death zone"😉 is very, very
difficult.

The story of someone who had a fortunate escape from Everest last year when
he suffered a broken leg at 8600m is at
http://www.footprintsramblingclub.org.uk/conan.htm
--
Dave

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:16:38 +0000, Carl <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I guess your not into cutting the labels out of your clothes or sawing
the toothbrush in half, are you ? well, neither am I, but I will pay
good money to save a few hundred grams, and when you must be pushing
your body to the limit I wouldnt have thought any extra would be
welcome. I sometimes carry walkman like things on backpacks in
Britain, but I wouldnt on something bigger, (unless I had a porter to
carry it.)

I see what you mean 🙂 I thought you meant it would be an unnecessary
distraction.

Where I walk, the weight of a Walkman makes no odds. I can understand
that it might well make a difference at that sort of altitude, though,
and in those sorts of conditions. Each to their own 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:06:25 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Where I walk, the weight of a Walkman makes no odds.

Hee hee. I read that as Welshman and thought that Paul S was getting
*really* lazy!

Judith