Cartridge bearings question

Jhas said:

I have cartridge bearings in my hubs (Ritchey Pro). The front wheel
works flawlessly. The rear wheel spins smoothly, but when I hold it

by

Quoted message said:

the ends of the axle and get it spinning, I can feel some vibration
that I can only describe as "lumpiness." Is this normal? The wheel
has about 3,600 miles on it.

Your cartridge bearings are toast. You can continue to ride them until
they cause annoying looseness at the rim, or you can replace them now.
They're pretty cheap; most of them (e.g 6000-2RS and 6001-2RS) should
not retail for more than $5 each at a bike shop.

There are only a few causes of cartridge bearing failure in a hub:
contamination, frequent radial overload, and axial preload.

There isn't much you can do about contamination, other than not
submerging your hubs and not riding in wet and messy conditions. (But
where's the fun in that?)

Likewise, if your hubs bearings are underrated for the combined weight
and chain tension loads the hub sees, there's not much you can do about
that either. You could use the bigger ring when you have a choice
between two of them to get the same ratio, but I suspect that can't
make too much difference overall. In some cases, you can get
full-complement filler slot bearings that have a higher load rating
than normal bearing cartridges. QBP sells tham under the name "Enduro
Max".

Axial preload is something you can do more to affect, but it may not be
completely obvious what it is you should do. If the hub axle (with
fresh bearings) is very smooth and free-spinning when it is not
installed in the bike, it might be preloaded when the QR is firmly
tightened (due to axle compression). Place your bike upside down and
disengage the chain, so the cassette does not ratchet when the rear
wheel is spun. Give the rear wheel a gentle spin with the QR loose and
again with the QR tightened fully. If it spins to a stop much more
quickly with the QR closed, or if it rocks back and forth under the
weight of the valve stem with the QR open but not with the QR closed,
it is probably preloaded to the point of damaging the bearings. Try
less tension on the QR (within reason).

Ideally, there should be less drag when the QR is closed than when it
is open. If this is the case, you can do a bit of experimenting with
different QRs and different closing tensions to see which gives you the
least friction. If you can, try both a QR with low tension, like a
Ritchey or Salsa, and a QR with high tension, like a well-lubed Shimano
or Campagnolo.

If you can feel a tiny bit of free play in the axle when the wheel is
installed and the QR tightened, that's very good, because it means
there is no axial preload at all upon your bearings.

Chalo Colina

Thanks for the advice. Getting the drive-side bearing out requires
removing the freehub, for which I'll need a long, 12mm allen wrench.
The axle and non-drive side bearing come out easily with a few taps
from a mallet. I'll pull the hub apart one these days and get the new
bearings. Meantime, I've been riding another wheel with a basic
Shimano hub. Simple, cheap, and runs beautifully.

I was playing with the wheel last night (big surprise, huh?) and I
noticed that if, while the wheel was spinning, I squeezed in on both
lock nuts, the "lumpiness " in the bearings dissappeared. Any
thoughts?

Jhas said:

I have cartridge bearings in my hubs (Ritchey Pro). The front wheel
works flawlessly. The rear wheel spins smoothly, but when I hold it by
the ends of the axle and get it spinning, I can feel some vibration
that I can only describe as "lumpiness." Is this normal? The wheel
has about 3,600 miles on it.

Take the bearings out and go to Applied Technologies (formerly known
as Detroit Ball) and get replacements.

Wes

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Reply to:
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Lycos address is a spam trap.

chalo colina said:

Jhas said:

I have cartridge bearings in my hubs (Ritchey Pro). The front wheel
works flawlessly. The rear wheel spins smoothly, but when I hold it
by the ends of the axle and get it spinning, I can feel some
vibration that I can only describe as "lumpiness." Is this normal?
The wheel has about 3,600 miles on it.

Your cartridge bearings are toast. You can continue to ride them
until they cause annoying looseness at the rim, or you can replace
them now. They're pretty cheap; most of them (e.g 6000-2RS and
6001-2RS) should not retail for more than $5 each at a bike shop.

There are only a few causes of cartridge bearing failure in a hub:
contamination, frequent radial overload, and axial preload.

There isn't much you can do about contamination, other than not
submerging your hubs and not riding in wet and messy conditions. (But
where's the fun in that?)

Likewise, if your hubs bearings are underrated for the combined weight
and chain tension loads the hub sees, there's not much you can do
about that either. You could use the bigger ring when you have a
choice between two of them to get the same ratio, but I suspect that
can't make too much difference overall. In some cases, you can get
full-complement filler slot bearings that have a higher load rating
than normal bearing cartridges. QBP sells tham under the name "Enduro
Max".

Axial preload is something you can do more to affect, but it may not
be completely obvious what it is you should do. If the hub axle (with
fresh bearings) is very smooth and free-spinning when it is not
installed in the bike, it might be preloaded when the QR is firmly
tightened (due to axle compression). Place your bike upside down and
disengage the chain, so the cassette does not ratchet when the rear
wheel is spun. Give the rear wheel a gentle spin with the QR loose
and again with the QR tightened fully. If it spins to a stop much
more quickly with the QR closed, or if it rocks back and forth under
the weight of the valve stem with the QR open but not with the QR
closed, it is probably preloaded to the point of damaging the
bearings. Try less tension on the QR (within reason).

Ideally, there should be less drag when the QR is closed than when it
is open. If this is the case, you can do a bit of experimenting
with different QRs and different closing tensions to see which gives
you the least friction. If you can, try both a QR with low tension,
like a Ritchey or Salsa, and a QR with high tension, like a
well-lubed Shimano or Campagnolo.

If you can feel a tiny bit of free play in the axle when the wheel is
installed and the QR tightened, that's very good, because it means
there is no axial preload at all upon your bearings.

Jobst claims that there should be slight tension... from the FAQ:
----------------
Bicycle wheel bearings, as most, require a slight preload so that more
than one ball under the cone (inner race) will support its load. With
proper preload, slight drag should be perceptible. Preload drag is
small compared to drag caused by wheel loads, neither of which are
significant regardless of adjustment. In contrast bearing life is
affected by proper adjustment. Adjusting ball bearings to spin freely
unloaded does not reduce operating friction because a bearing with
proper preload has lower drag when loaded than one with clearance.
For high quality bearings, preload should be just enough to cause
light drag when rotating the axle between thumb and forefinger. Low
grade bearings will feel slightly lumpy with proper preload.
----------------

Maybe "slight preload" is too vague. I consider slight preload just barely
enough to prevent any play, usually by cheat-adjusting the cones by turning
the cones away from each other with the locknuts already tightened. This is
the only way I've found to adjust it to this tiny degree easily.

I personally feel that no play/QR open is the best way to go, but I'm
straddling the fence. I don't believe, however, that there ever be any play
with the QR closed.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Jhas said:

I was playing with the wheel last night (big surprise, huh?) and I
noticed that if, while the wheel was spinning, I squeezed in on both
lock nuts, the "lumpiness " in the bearings dissappeared. Any
thoughts?

Hmmm. It would be a good thing to see that happen under some hundreds
of pounds compression such as that exerted by the QR skewer, but being
able to do it by hand? There must be some slop in the mechanism that
you are taking up.

If the "lumpiness" you describe is like that in a cup & cone hub that
is just a bit too tight, then it might be evidence of the good kind of
axial preload-- the kind that is neutralized by QR tension. If it's
like the lumpiness in a cup & cone hub with pitted cones, then it's
just evidence that the bearings races have failed.

Chalo Colina

Phil said:

chalo colina said:

If you can feel a tiny bit of free play in the axle when the wheel

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

installed and the QR tightened, that's very good, because it means
there is no axial preload at all upon your bearings.

Jobst claims that there should be slight tension... from the FAQ:
----------------
Bicycle wheel bearings, as most, require a slight preload so that

more

Quoted message said:

than one ball under the cone (inner race) will support its load.

With

Quoted message said:

proper preload, slight drag should be perceptible. <snip>
----------------

I personally feel that no play/QR open is the best way to go, but I'm

Quoted message said:

straddling the fence. I don't believe, however, that there ever be

any play

Quoted message said:

with the QR closed.

Jobst's assertions, and yours, are appropriate for cup & cone bearings,
which are of the angular contact type. Industrial bearing cartridges,
like those the OP has in his hub, are of the deep groove radial contact
type. They can carry a thrust load, but are not designed to be axial
preloaded as installed.

Some hub manufacturers axially preload them anyway, keeping the
dimensions of the assembly closely controlled so that (hopefully) the
axial preload will not use up the bearing's axial load carrying
capacity. Others (e.g. Sanshin/Specialized) have used a "cone" and
locknut arrangement to allow the end user to adjust his own bearings
(ruining them in the process, if he uses settings appropriate for cup &
cone). Then there are those, most notably Bullseye, who construct
their hubs in such a way that they are not preloaded axially when
installed.

Any owner of Bullseye hubs will be familiar with the small amount of
axial float they have, which gives the same feeling at the rim as
slightly loose cones. It is beneficial to radial contact bearings to
have this play.

Chalo Colina

chalo colina said:

Phil said:

chalo colina said:

If you can feel a tiny bit of free play in the axle when the wheel
is installed and the QR tightened, that's very good, because it
means there is no axial preload at all upon your bearings.

Jobst claims that there should be slight tension... from the FAQ:
----------------
Bicycle wheel bearings, as most, require a slight preload so that
more than one ball under the cone (inner race) will support its load.

With

Quoted message said:

proper preload, slight drag should be perceptible. <snip>
----------------

I personally feel that no play/QR open is the best way to go, but I'm

Quoted message said:

straddling the fence. I don't believe, however, that there ever be
any play with the QR closed.

Jobst's assertions, and yours, are appropriate for cup & cone
bearings, which are of the angular contact type. Industrial bearing
cartridges, like those the OP has in his hub, are of the deep groove
radial contact type. They can carry a thrust load, but are not
designed to be axial preloaded as installed.

I had totally forgotten this was referring to cartridges. Whoops.

Quoted message said:

Some hub manufacturers axially preload them anyway, keeping the
dimensions of the assembly closely controlled so that (hopefully) the
axial preload will not use up the bearing's axial load carrying
capacity. Others (e.g. Sanshin/Specialized) have used a "cone" and
locknut arrangement to allow the end user to adjust his own bearings
(ruining them in the process, if he uses settings appropriate for cup
& cone). Then there are those, most notably Bullseye, who construct
their hubs in such a way that they are not preloaded axially when
installed.

Any owner of Bullseye hubs will be familiar with the small amount of
axial float they have, which gives the same feeling at the rim as
slightly loose cones. It is beneficial to radial contact bearings to
have this play.

I have had problems adjusting cartridge bearings, but my experience is
limited to just one hub, the Alex Rims 20-bladed-spoke rear road hub. I'll
keep your post in mind, thanks.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training