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Cars & China--God Help Us

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Road Cycling
Published
7 June 2004
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16 June 2004
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B. Lafferty
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  1. From today's NY Time:

    June 7, 2004
    G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    EIJING, June 7 - Brushing aside slowing growth in car sales and broader
    concerns about the Chinese economy, General Motors executives announced here
    today that their company and its local joint venture partners would spend
    more than $3 billion by 2007 to expand operations in China.

    The heavy investment, to build new factories, expand existing ones and
    greatly increase G. M.'s engineering and design activities, is the latest
    and largest in a series of big investments by the world's leading
    automakers, all of which are racing to profit from the world's
    fastest-growing economy.

    Volkswagen, Toyota, Nissan and DaimlerChrysler are all engaged in big
    expansion projects here. So are their joint-venture partners, notably the
    Shanghai Automotive Industrial Corporation, First Auto Works and the
    Dongfeng Motor Corporation.

    The ambitious plans underline the extent to which some of the world's
    largest companies continue to place big bets here even as Beijing officials
    try to slow a galloping economy in response to rising inflation.

    A publication controlled by the central bank warned today of a possible need
    to raise interest rates if inflation continues to rise. Three government
    agencies jointly announced restrictions today on the ability of foreign
    banks to bring money into China, as a way to discourage capital inflows that
    have fed growth in the money supply and inflation.

    The China Banking Regulatory Commission recently began urging banks to be
    more cautious in lending to car buyers. And a slew of government agencies
    are seeking to slow real estate speculation, the source of many fortunes
    that are now being spent partly on new cars.

    After growth approached 10 percent in the first quarter, the government has
    been trying to slow it to a still brisk and possibly more sustainable annual
    pace of 7 percent.

    Phil Murtaugh, the chairman and chief executive of G. M. China Group, said
    that G. M.'s sales in May were still up a healthy 20 percent in China from a
    year earlier, although after soaring at an annual pace of 80 percent earlier
    this year. China has so few cars relative to its population that even if the
    economy does slow, G. M. will still be able to sell a lot of cars here in
    the years ahead, Mr. Murtaugh said.

    "Let's assume there's a dip - well, there are 8 cars per 1,000 people" of
    driving age, he said.

    G. M.'s announcement of expansion plans came two days before the Beijing
    auto show opens on Wednesday, and mark an acceleration by the company of
    already ambitious growth plans.

    The company said last autumn that it would increase its annual production
    capacity to 865,000 cars, minivans and pickups by 2007 from 530,000 now.

    Mr. Murtaugh said today that the company's new target was to have an annual
    capacity of 1.3 million vehicles in 2007. G. M. will also expand its design
    and engineering center in Shanghai so that by 2010, the operations here will
    be able to produce entirely new models, as G. M. already does in the United
    States and in Germany.

    Even if the economy does slow somewhat in the short run, he said, "It's only
    a matter of time before that 1.3 million won't be enough."

    Mr. Murtaugh insisted that anything less than brisk expansion now would be a
    mistake. "For the people doing that, I believe there's a high risk of
    danger, of the margins not being there when they get there," he said, in a
    thinly veiled jab at the Ford Motor Company, which has been more cautious in
    China.

    The more than $3 billion needed for these activities, plus a leap in auto
    financing in China, will come entirely from cash generated by the joint
    ventures, Mr. Murtaugh said. While G. M. does not publicly break down its
    profits by country, financial analysts say that the Chinese operations are
    highly profitable because G. M. was early in entering the market and has
    been benefited from high, although declining, trade barriers that have
    limited imports.

    G. M. has paid some dividends from its operations here to the parent company
    in the United States, but has mostly reinvested them in further expansion
    here.

    Michael Dunne, the president of Automotive Resources Asia Ltd., a consulting
    firm based in Shanghai and Bangkok, said that in growing from less than 1
    percent of the Chinese car market to 11.5 percent now, G. M. had repeatedly
    bet on further growth when other automakers had been more pessimistic.

    "They've gotten it right every step so far - their market share is up, their
    profits are up," he said. "The one question is how hard the government will
    weigh down on growth - if they really come down on loans, that will hurt.`

    Regulators have been worried that banks are lending recklessly during the
    current boom, and have tried to restrain them for fear that they will
    otherwise add to the banks' formidable collections of nonperforming loans.

    Christian Weidemann, G. M.'s director of financial services in China, said
    that the company was close to winning permission from regulators to begin
    offering its own loans to dealers and car buyers through the General Motors
    Acceptances Corporation, much as it does in the United States.

    Mr. Weidemann estimated that the buyers of only 18.5 percent of the cars
    sold in China last year took out loans, with the rest paying in cash. That
    is far below the 60 to 85 percent of buyers who use loans or leases to
    acquire vehicles in developed countries, suggesting considerable room for
    growth, he said.

    Mr. Dunne estimated that the proportion of cars being financed with loans in
    China had dropped to 10 percent in recent weeks because of the government's
    regulatory crackdown.

    Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search |
    Corrections | Help | Back to Top

  2. B. Lafferty said:

    From today's NY Time:

    June 7, 2004
    G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have to pay
    for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell, then we could
    build a complete network of racingcircuits all over the world. I'm talking
    30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every place we wanna race 😉

    --
    Perre

    You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

  3. Per Elmsäter said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    From today's NY Time:

    June 7, 2004
    G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have to pay
    for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell, then we could
    build a complete network of racingcircuits all over the world. I'm talking
    30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every place we wanna race 😉

    And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    accomodate cars.

  4. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    From today's NY Time:

    There has been talk for years about overhauling the old railroad grade that
    runs along the Merced river to Yosemite. The plan included a bike path along
    side the new rail grade that would take tourists up to Yosemite and cut back
    on cars and buses, curtailing smog, which has become worse in California
    parks in recent years. There has been some investors and the plans have been
    thrown around numerous times but no action yet, if ever. That would be great
    ride as I have done the old trail many times on my MB. Thing is with bikes
    here is the mindset isn't like the Netherlands where you can strap just
    about anything on a bike, including groceries stacked on your handlebars.
    People seem to think if you are doing chores hauling stuff around on your
    bike that you are too poor to own a car, like some kind of lowlife, bad
    mindset. People are embarrassed to be seen using their bikes for everyday
    tasks like going to the post office. Americans are too busy showing off
    their SUV's. A car is a status symbol, and the Chinese are getting a clue
    about that and following suit. It won't be long before the Chinese will get
    the same mindset and be embarrassed to ride their bike as well for errands
    and such. Too bad, I used to take groceries home on my bikes sometimes, no
    big deal, but to show my point, a car load of teens drove by and told me to
    buy a car like I was too poor. Typical reaction, but little did they know
    that I have 4 cars, all running good and a truck. Got 4 bikes though. The
    more bike paths and folks out riding in America then the more of such
    minsets will disappear.

  5. Richard Adams said:
    Per Elmsäter said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    From today's NY Time:

    June 7, 2004
    G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have
    to pay for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell,
    then we could build a complete network of racingcircuits all over
    the world. I'm talking 30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every
    place we wanna race 😉

    And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    accomodate cars.

    Don't crush my dreams before they even take off ;(
    I could already picture myself managing one of these circuits after
    retirement. Everyday I'd ride a couple of laps around the 100 km course.
    Stopping here and there sweeping some sand off in a curve. Shooting some
    gossip with the caféowners enroute. Ohh yeaahh.
    If I'd wasted to much time talking somewhere I'd just hitch on to the next
    peloton passing by.

    --
    Perre

    You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

  6. Per Elmsäter said:
    Richard Adams said:
    Per Elmsäter said:

    B. Lafferty wrote:

    >From today's NY Time:
    >
    >June 7, 2004
    >G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    >By KEITH BRADSHER
    >

    If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have
    to pay for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell,
    then we could build a complete network of racingcircuits all over
    the world. I'm talking 30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every
    place we wanna race 😉

    And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    accomodate cars.

    Don't crush my dreams before they even take off ;(
    I could already picture myself managing one of these circuits after
    retirement. Everyday I'd ride a couple of laps around the 100 km course.
    Stopping here and there sweeping some sand off in a curve. Shooting some
    gossip with the caféowners enroute. Ohh yeaahh.
    If I'd wasted to much time talking somewhere I'd just hitch on to the next
    peloton passing by.

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    * Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Yes, you would be much happier to have the government [censored] away your money for
    you, than you make a decision on where to spend it.
    Personally the less of my money the government gets to decide where to spend
    the better I like it. That way I can use it where I think it's best, not have
    some pinhead do it for me.
    Bill C

  8. "Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Per Elmsäter said:
    Richard Adams said:

    Per Elmsäter wrote:

    >B. Lafferty wrote:
    >
    >
    >>From today's NY Time:
    >>
    >>June 7, 2004
    >>G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    >>By KEITH BRADSHER
    >>
    >
    >
    >If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have
    >to pay for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell,
    >then we could build a complete network of racingcircuits all over
    >the world. I'm talking 30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every
    >place we wanna race 😉
    >

    And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    accomodate cars.

    Don't crush my dreams before they even take off ;(
    I could already picture myself managing one of these circuits after
    retirement. Everyday I'd ride a couple of laps around the 100 km course.
    Stopping here and there sweeping some sand off in a curve. Shooting some
    gossip with the caféowners enroute. Ohh yeaahh.
    If I'd wasted to much time talking somewhere I'd just hitch on to the


    next

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    peloton passing by.

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    * Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    So I assume you paid at the higher rate each time. A tax cut allows a
    person to keep more of the money one earns. You seem to believe that all
    income belongs to the government and that we should be thrilled with what
    government gives us.

    As for a vote buying scam--sign me up. I want politicians to cut taxes.

  9. TritonRider said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Yes, you would be much happier to have the government [censored] away your money for
    you, than you make a decision on where to spend it.
    Personally the less of my money the government gets to decide where to spend
    the better I like it. That way I can use it where I think it's best, not have
    some pinhead do it for me.
    Bill C

    Problem is, they're spending it like fiends anyway, even after a big tax
    cut. I'd prefer to see realistic taxation and conservative spending,
    the shame is the GOP has proven they can spend money faster than the Dems.

    Great quote, which I can't attribute -- "The democrats invented the
    deficit, but the republicans figured out how to use it."

  10. Sam said:

    "Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Per Elmsäter said:

    Richard Adams wrote:

    >Per Elmsäter wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>B. Lafferty wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>From today's NY Time:
    >>
    >>>June 7, 2004
    >>>G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    >>>By KEITH BRADSHER
    >>>
    >>
    >>
    >>If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have
    >>to pay for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell,
    >>then we could build a complete network of racingcircuits all over
    >>the world. I'm talking 30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every
    >>place we wanna race 😉
    >>
    >
    >And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    >accomodate cars.

    Don't crush my dreams before they even take off ;(
    I could already picture myself managing one of these circuits after
    retirement. Everyday I'd ride a couple of laps around the 100 km course.
    Stopping here and there sweeping some sand off in a curve. Shooting some
    gossip with the caféowners enroute. Ohh yeaahh.
    If I'd wasted to much time talking somewhere I'd just hitch on to the

    next

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    peloton passing by.

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    * Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    So I assume you paid at the higher rate each time. A tax cut allows a
    person to keep more of the money one earns. You seem to believe that all
    income belongs to the government and that we should be thrilled with what
    government gives us.

    As for a vote buying scam--sign me up. I want politicians to cut taxes.

    Macro Econ 101: The less revenue the Govt has for it's bloated budget
    the more it has to borrow, the more it has to borrow the more it prints,
    the more money in the money supply the less it's worth. Control
    government spending 1st then adjust taxes to a realistic level.

    Even the president's own party were accused of discretionary spending
    "like drunken sailors."

  11. "Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sam said:

    "Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Per Elmsäter wrote:

    >Richard Adams wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Per Elmsäter wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>B. Lafferty wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>From today's NY Time:
    >>>
    >>>>June 7, 2004
    >>>>G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    >>>>By KEITH BRADSHER
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have
    >>>to pay for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell,
    >>>then we could build a complete network of racingcircuits all over
    >>>the world. I'm talking 30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every
    >>>place we wanna race 😉
    >>>
    >>
    >>And local governments being what they are, they'd notice these happily
    >>accomodate cars.
    >
    >
    >Don't crush my dreams before they even take off ;(
    >I could already picture myself managing one of these circuits after
    >retirement. Everyday I'd ride a couple of laps around the 100 km


    course.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Stopping here and there sweeping some sand off in a curve. Shooting


    some

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >gossip with the caféowners enroute. Ohh yeaahh.
    >If I'd wasted to much time talking somewhere I'd just hitch on to the

    next

    Quoted message said:

    >peloton passing by.

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    * Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    So I assume you paid at the higher rate each time. A tax cut allows a
    person to keep more of the money one earns. You seem to believe that


    all

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    income belongs to the government and that we should be thrilled with


    what

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    government gives us.

    As for a vote buying scam--sign me up. I want politicians to cut taxes.

    Macro Econ 101: The less revenue the Govt has for it's bloated budget
    the more it has to borrow, the more it has to borrow the more it prints,
    the more money in the money supply the less it's worth. Control
    government spending 1st then adjust taxes to a realistic level.

    Even the president's own party were accused of discretionary spending
    "like drunken sailors."

    I think discretionary spending was something like 8 or 9 percent under
    Reagan, 1 percent under Clinton, and somewhere like 14 percent or higher
    under Bush Jr., the highest ever.

    Well, I was somewhat close.

    http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=139

  12. "TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Yes, you would be much happier to have the government [censored] away your


    money for

    Quoted message said:

    you, than you make a decision on where to spend it.
    Personally the less of my money the government gets to decide where to


    spend

    Quoted message said:

    the better I like it. That way I can use it where I think it's best, not


    have

    Quoted message said:

    some pinhead do it for me.
    Bill C

    There's at Time frame with a full Dura Ace kit that I'd love to do a money
    [censored] with. I could, but I'd be spending more on an attorney in matrimonial
    court. Oh well...........

  13. On 07 Jun 2004 20:30:56 EDT, Richard Adams <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    What suit did the federal government win and get tobacco money? The
    state's got the money and most of them needed it to plug lost revenue.
    I would guess that when the tobacco money wasn't spent for related
    programs, it was used to keep state tax rates from going higher.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  14. Curtis L. Russell said:

    On 07 Jun 2004 20:30:56 EDT, Richard Adams <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
    money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
    product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
    promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
    rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

    What suit did the federal government win and get tobacco money? The
    state's got the money and most of them needed it to plug lost revenue.
    I would guess that when the tobacco money wasn't spent for related
    programs, it was used to keep state tax rates from going higher.

    Which is really the problem. The money should have been used by the
    states to battle smoking, pay for health care of those affected, promote
    a healthy lifestyle. As politicians are wont to do, they spend it on
    what would give them the most political capital. IIRC the citizens of
    Michigan (where I lived until 1997) had a referendum to force the state
    to fund schools at a nominal level without taking the lottery proceeds
    into account. Up to that time the state govt simply took out of
    education what the lottery put in, so it never enhanced the budget the
    way the people were led to believe when they approved the lottery in the
    first place.

  15. Sierraman said:

    "Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Even the president's own party were accused of discretionary spending
    "like drunken sailors."

    I think discretionary spending was something like 8 or 9 percent under
    Reagan, 1 percent under Clinton, and somewhere like 14 percent or higher
    under Bush Jr., the highest ever.

    Well, I was somewhat close.

    http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=139

    The components of discretionary spending:
    http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/spending_components.png

  16. "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    From today's NY Time:

    There has been talk for years about overhauling the old railroad grade


    that

    Quoted message said:

    runs along the Merced river to Yosemite. The plan included a bike path


    along

    Quoted message said:

    side the new rail grade that would take tourists up to Yosemite and cut


    back

    Quoted message said:

    on cars and buses, curtailing smog, which has become worse in California
    parks in recent years. There has been some investors and the plans have


    been

    Quoted message said:

    thrown around numerous times but no action yet, if ever. That would be


    great

    Quoted message said:

    ride as I have done the old trail many times on my MB. Thing is with bikes
    here is the mindset isn't like the Netherlands where you can strap just
    about anything on a bike, including groceries stacked on your handlebars.
    People seem to think if you are doing chores hauling stuff around on your
    bike that you are too poor to own a car, like some kind of lowlife, bad
    mindset. People are embarrassed to be seen using their bikes for everyday
    tasks like going to the post office. Americans are too busy showing off
    their SUV's.

    That is why a few leaders need to just do it anyway (whether you whine about
    it or not) and demonstrate that it can be "cool" as well as smart. I have
    people ask me questions all the time (that indicate admiration) when
    shopping for groceries with my race kit on.

    A car is a status symbol, and the Chinese are getting a clue

    Quoted message said:

    about that and following suit. It won't be long before the Chinese will


    get

    Quoted message said:

    the same mindset and be embarrassed to ride their bike as well for errands
    and such. Too bad, I used to take groceries home on my bikes sometimes, no
    big deal, but to show my point, a car load of teens drove by and told me


    to

    Quoted message said:

    buy a car like I was too poor.

    And what was your reaction to these teens? Why is this past tense? Why would
    you even care what a "carload of teens" thinks?

    Typical reaction, but little did they know

    Quoted message said:

    that I have 4 cars, all running good and a truck. Got 4 bikes though. The
    more bike paths and folks out riding in America then the more of such
    minsets will disappear.

    No, it will take people doing it with pride rather than an apologetic
    attitude.

  17. "Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    From today's NY Time:

    June 7, 2004
    G.M. to Spend Over $3 Billion to Expand in China
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    If we could only legislate that the automotive industry would have to pay
    for one square meter of cycling road per every car they sell, then we


    could

    Quoted message said:

    build a complete network of racingcircuits all over the world. I'm talking
    30 - 100 km two lane cyclinghighways every place we wanna race 😉

    Yeah, like any of that money would actually be used for its intended
    purpose. Besides, the car maker would just pass the cost onto the consumer
    so really it's the consumer getting his with another tax.

    Dave

  18. "TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    From: Richard Adams [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Quoted message said:

    Tax cuts are allegedly used to give back some money to spur the
    economy or return money that the government doesn't need, but it's
    essentially a vote buying scam.

    Yes, you would be much happier to have the government [censored] away your


    money for

    Quoted message said:

    you, than you make a decision on where to spend it.
    Personally the less of my money the government gets to decide where to


    spend

    Quoted message said:

    the better I like it. That way I can use it where I think it's best, not


    have

    Quoted message said:

    some pinhead do it for me.
    Bill C

    Concerning higher taxes vs. lower taxes: maybe there's a happy medium to be
    found. Mostly, though, governments need to learn to be more efficient and
    spend their "income" more wisely.

    Dave

  19. Robert Chung said:

    http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/spending_components.png

    Holy [censored].

  20. Ewoud Dronkert said:
    Robert Chung said:

    http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/spending_components.png

    Holy [censored].

    In the U.S. a billion is 10^9. Still, a billion here, a billion there...

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