Carbon isotope test?

From the San Diego Union Tribune online at: signonsandiego.com20060729 9999 1s29landis.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

But a bigger issue for Landis figures to be another, less publicized test that has quietly gained legitimacy in recent years. It is called a carbon isotope ratio, or CIR, and it differentiates between testosterone produced naturally inside the body and pharmaceutical testosterone introduced externally.

“It's a wonderful tool,” said Catlin, the UCLA scientist who was instrumental in developing it. “We've never known it to be wrong. We use it all the time now. If you have a high t/e ratio in our lab, we do a carbon isotope ratio right away. We don't report a high t/e ratio without a carbon isotope test.”

Therein, perhaps, lies the greatest obstacle for Landis.

The Paris lab conducting tests from the Tour de France is accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA protocol calls for a CIR if a urine test shows an elevated t/e ratio. It also recommends that an athlete's t/e ratios from previous drug tests be examined to determine if the elevated t/e ratio is an abnormality.

The idea is that a doping case is not initiated against an athlete without at least two and ideally all three of these elements.

The International Cycling Union (UCI) did not reveal details of the preliminary lab results, and Phonak, Landis' Swiss-based team, said only that UCI notified it of “an unusual level of testosterone/epitestosterone.” But there were reports in France that the Paris lab had indeed conducted a CIR and that it was positive, and Catlin said he'd be surprised if the lab didn't perform one.

“They are a WADA-accredited lab and they follow WADA protocol,” Catlin said. “I think it's a very safe assumption – very safe. Why would they risk not doing that? I mean, good grief, you'd think they are going to have all their ducks in order for a case like this.”

And if those three elements all point to illicit use of testosterone?

“You are not going to lose the (doping) case, period,” Catlin said.

So I've read somewhere here that there have been reports that the LNDD did perform the CIR test. I also recall a quote from an Italian UCI official who basically said that the first test was "good enough for them".

In all of this, the test results haven't been made public, even the basic t/e ratio analysis. I've read varying reports that it's 11:1 or "almost three times normal" ... I wonder if the CIR was reported to Landis/Phonak and they didn't leak that part because it's damaging to them and they want to skip to the endocrinological tests?

karlotta said:

From the San Diego Union Tribune online at: signonsandiego.com20060729 9999 1s29landis.htmlOpen ↗

So I've read somewhere here that there have been reports that the LNDD did perform the CIR test. I also recall a quote from an Italian UCI official who basically said that the first test was "good enough for them".

In all of this, the test results haven't been made public, even the basic t/e ratio analysis. I've read varying reports that it's 11:1 or "almost three times normal" ... I wonder if the CIR was reported to Landis/Phonak and they didn't leak that part because it's damaging to them and they want to skip to the endocrinological tests?

So far Floyd has kept saying that its the ratio that is off nd the whatever is in the urine is from his body and not exogenous.

I think if a rider flunks a pee test, then he and his team HAVE to be notified of all the tests he flunked. So if they did the isotope test they would have to let FLoyd know.
But Floyd is requesting all the urines fron the TdF and Paris Nice and Tourde California so he can compare all the results with his experts.

bobke said:

So far Floyd has kept saying that its the ratio that is off nd the whatever is in the urine is from his body and not exogenous.

I think if a rider flunks a pee test, then he and his team HAVE to be notified of all the tests he flunked. So if they did the isotope test they would have to let FLoyd know.
But Floyd is requesting all the urines fron the TdF and Paris Nice and Tourde California so he can compare all the results with his experts.

Right. And if Floyd knew that his CIR test showed exogenous testosterone, he'd never withhold that information, would he... 🙄

There appears to be a lot of questions about whether carbon isotope testing was done or not. I have read some reports that say it has and was positive and other reports that say it will be used on the B sample. It costs a lot more to perform that the ratio test, so it is not done until there is an adverse ratio found.

I don't know what to think right now. I have heard the argument made that having the Tour winner test positive the lab would have verified the result with the CIR, but I am not sure that can be true. The lab should only have a numbered sample; they would not know who it belonged to. But then maybe they do CIR testing after all failed ratio tests.

From what I can gather, if Landis fails the CIR he is guilty. There are several reasons you can fail the ratio test, but the CIR is assumed to make an air tight case.

karlotta said:

Right. And if Floyd knew that his CIR test showed exogenous testosterone, he'd never withhold that information, would he... 🙄

You mean like Justin Gatlin, who just revealed he was positive, was still allowed to race for two to three months, and the testosterone was already confirmed as coming outside the body in the CIR, and I think he set a world record in the meantime, and is proven to have had testosterone from outside, go figure...FLoyd was notified in two days.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-072906gatlin,0,3582305.story?coll=la-home-headlines

bobke said:

You mean like Justin Gatlin, who just revealed he was positive, was still allowed to race for two to three months, and the testosterone was already confirmed as coming outside the body in the CIR, and I think he set a world record in the meantime, and is proven to have had testosterone from outside, go figure...FLoyd was notified in two days.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-072906gatlin,0,3582305.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Gatlin is denying he doped just like Landis. Everyone denies it. Lemond is right... it would be great if Landis would just own up to what he did (if the B test confirms the A test).

more than VO2 said:

Before the world gets into an uproar just remember the guy has not tested positive for any foreign substances (yet!!!). He has simply tested positive for his endocrine system being out of wack and the fact that he has thyroid disease means that's already a given.

No, he has not tested positive for having an "endocrine system out of wack." He has an abnormal testosterone to epitestosterone ratio and an "endocrine system out of wack" is a possible explanation. So is synthetic testosterone.

For all we know is endocrine system (with the meds he is taking for the thyroid condition) is perfectly in wack.

I hope he's innocent but until we know one way or the other, let's stick to the facts.

seriouslydog said:

I hope he's innocent but until we know one way or the other, let's stick to the facts.

Speaking of facts, here's an interesting blog done by a guy studying Neuroscience at Mount Sinai.
scienceblogs.comfloyd landis and testosterone.phpOpen ↗

adapa said:

Speaking of facts, here's an interesting blog done by a guy studying Neuroscience at Mount Sinai.
scienceblogs.comfloyd landis and testosterone.phpOpen ↗

Interesting, but it doesn't get to the point of the thread. Thanks though.

adapa said:

Speaking of facts, here's an interesting blog done by a guy studying Neuroscience at Mount Sinai.
scienceblogs.comfloyd landis and testosterone.phpOpen ↗

wow ok not to the point of the thread but an awesome, awesome, article. thanks my friend you might wanna consider making a thread for this.

one thing i am still unclear on myself is how long term use of test oand or related AAS will affect production of epitest. i know there is some degree of interrelatedness and conversion, but nothing big short term. i wonder what say ronnie coleman's epitestosterone levels look like.

Well, let's be fair to LNDD. They wouldn't know that they were delivering a positive on the Tour winner, because all they have is a sample and a number.

That's how it is supposed to work, anyway...

Bro Deal said:

There appears to be a lot of questions about whether carbon isotope testing was done or not. I have read some reports that say it has and was positive and other reports that say it will be used on the B sample. It costs a lot more to perform that the ratio test, so it is not done until there is an adverse ratio found.

I don't know what to think right now. I have heard the argument made that having the Tour winner test positive the lab would have verified the result with the CIR, but I am not sure that can be true. The lab should only have a numbered sample; they would not know who it belonged to. But then maybe they do CIR testing after all failed ratio tests.

From what I can gather, if Landis fails the CIR he is guilty. There are several reasons you can fail the ratio test, but the CIR is assumed to make an air tight case.

JohnO said:

Well, let's be fair to LNDD. They wouldn't know that they were delivering a positive on the Tour winner, because all they have is a sample and a number.

That is why I brought up that the argument some people have made on other forums that they ran the CIR because they were testing the race winner does not make sense. Either they run CIR on all failed ratio tests or the UCI would have to request additional tests be made on the A sample.

I would just like some hard info about whether exogenous testosterone has been found.

Another reference to the CIR done by the LNDD...

The San Jose Mercury (mercurynews.com15151628.htmOpen ↗ ) reports that:

The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that an isotope analysis showed the presence of artificial testosterone in Landis' urine. The cyclist said he hadn't heard about the report.

I tried to find it on the L'Equipe website, but it isn't there. I think it must have been in the print version only. There is an option to buy the PDF of the print version... hmmm.

karlotta said:

Another reference to the CIR done by the LNDD...

The San Jose Mercury (mercurynews.com15151628.htmOpen ↗ ) reports that:

The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that an isotope analysis showed the presence of artificial testosterone in Landis' urine. The cyclist said he hadn't heard about the report.

I tried to find it on the L'Equipe website, but it isn't there. I think it must have been in the print version only. There is an option to buy the PDF of the print version... hmmm.

wow if that's true he may as well go ahead and admit it and start his 2 year ban so he can race the vuelta in '08. he could always luck out and have the lab freeze his b sample though.

karlotta said:

Another reference to the CIR done by the LNDD...

The San Jose Mercury (mercurynews.com15151628.htmOpen ↗ ) reports that:

The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that an isotope analysis showed the presence of artificial testosterone in Landis' urine. The cyclist said he hadn't heard about the report.

I tried to find it on the L'Equipe website, but it isn't there. I think it must have been in the print version only. There is an option to buy the PDF of the print version... hmmm.

It was only in the paper edition apparently.

Bjørn P.Dal said:

It was only in the paper edition apparently.

The UCI and WADA have wised up after [font=Verdana]Inigo Landaluze tested positive for testosterone and got himself off.... they won't let that happen again... doesn't surprise me they have undertaken counter-analysis to ward off any appeals of the Landis nature..... nice work UCI.... 🙂 [/font]

Indeed in the paper version L'Equipe was talking about it, friday, and even with more details on saturday.
What they were saying (I don't have it in front of me, but this is basically it) is that Chatenay Malabry lab, whenever it finds a sample positive on testosterone, has a test made to look if this is endogen or exogen. And here L'Equipe says (from an inside source in the lab I guess) that this test showed it was exogen, and that there was no doubt about it, something like that.
Now from what I understood, it is not the exact test (that carbon isotop one) that Landis is talking about, it's a similar one, but not te same one. L'Equipe was saying that during the press conference, Landis' lawyer was questioning the validity of the french lab test, saying that it has no scientific credibility (or some similar statement) and that the french lab was probably the only one to use it. So on saturday's edition, L'Equipe was quoting a doctor from a Montreal lab who was saying that this is untrue, that this test is absolutely valid and standard, that they also use it in Canada, and that Chatenay Malabry expertise on that test has never been questionned. That doctor was also saying that everytime an athlete gets positive on testosterone, they hear the same same [censored] lame excuses.
She was also saying, referring to the initial alcohol excuse, that only with women you can sometimes find weird testosterone results (because women have very ittle amont of testosterone to begin with), and only fo a few hours then.

Anyway, L'Equipe wasn't making long articles about Landis innocence claiming during the last days (it's summertime, and traditionnally the newspaper gets very light in those days), but clearly didn't give it any credit at all, hardly even giving it any space (it's all about soccer again).

allez jacky said:

Anyway, L'Equipe wasn't making long articles about Landis innocence claiming during the last days (it's summertime, and traditionnally the newspaper gets very light in those days), but clearly didn't give it any credit at all, hardly even giving it any space (it's all about soccer again).

Ressiot is probably on vacation.......:p 😄

Thanks allez jacky for summarising the information from the print L'Equipe from Sat and Fri.

Predictions: Landis will come out on a full bore attack on the French lab sometime next week. Lance will be domestiquing on this ride.

allez jacky said:

Indeed in the paper version L'Equipe was talking about it, friday, and even with more details on saturday.
What they were saying (I don't have it in front of me, but this is basically it) is that Chatenay Malabry lab, whenever it finds a sample positive on testosterone, has a test made to look if this is endogen or exogen. And here L'Equipe says (from an inside source in the lab I guess) that this test showed it was exogen, and that there was no doubt about it, something like that.
Now from what I understood, it is not the exact test (that carbon isotop one) that Landis is talking about, it's a similar one, but not te same one. L'Equipe was saying that during the press conference, Landis' lawyer was questioning the validity of the french lab test, saying that it has no scientific credibility (or some similar statement) and that the french lab was probably the only one to use it. So on saturday's edition, L'Equipe was quoting a doctor from a Montreal lab who was saying that this is untrue, that this test is absolutely valid and standard, that they also use it in Canada, and that Chatenay Malabry expertise on that test has never been questionned. That doctor was also saying that everytime an athlete gets positive on testosterone, they hear the same same [censored] lame excuses.
She was also saying, referring to the initial alcohol excuse, that only with women you can sometimes find weird testosterone results (because women have very ittle amont of testosterone to begin with), and only fo a few hours then.

Anyway, L'Equipe wasn't making long articles about Landis innocence claiming during the last days (it's summertime, and traditionnally the newspaper gets very light in those days), but clearly didn't give it any credit at all, hardly even giving it any space (it's all about soccer again).