Carbon fiber thoughts

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

I think you overestimate how durable previous aluminum or steel
componentry was.

Of course, the problem with composites is they can do fun things like
absorb an impact, look superficially okay and retain their shape, and
then break the next time you use them.

The Al or steel component would probably be visibly bent after the same
crash.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

I think you overestimate how durable previous aluminum or steel
componentry was.

Indeed, so explain what the difference is between a fork broken into several
pieces and one that is bent back against the frame?

Though two weeks ago I was riding behind a guy going down a hill that struck
a dog and his Parlee broke the head tube off cleanly. The connection was so
miserably poor that I sure wouldn't buy one of those. On the other hand I'm
riding my Time VXR.

Oh please a bike shop will see 1 or 2 broken alloy cranks a year. Now
compare this with how many reports you hear of broken seat posts. What
is really disturbing is the sudden failure of carbon fiber handlebars.
I am not going to going down a hill at 60 mph and finding myself
flying into a tree with a handlebar that has busted. The worst part is
that we are talking a savings of 10 or 20 grams. I used 3TTT
Superleggero bars and went down 3 or 4 times. These bars weighed 90
grams and never even bent. After all of this the bars cost $500-$600
dollars or more.

As for frames compare this with Reynolds 953 which has yield strenght
of 350,000 psi.

I worked in bike shop for years and I think the prices have really
gotten out of hand especially when one compares the technical gains.

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html)

Quoted message said:

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

Quoted message said:

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874).

I think you overestimate how durable previous aluminum or steel
componentry was.

Of course, the problem with composites is they can do fun things like
absorb an impact, look superficially okay and retain their shape, and
then break the next time you use them.

The Al or steel component would probably be visibly bent after the same
crash.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden]://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

For the rider who doesn't need or can't afford a "throw away" frame,
Steel is the answer

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
“To see and not speak out would be a great betrayal. It is as if
watching my nation busily engaged in heaping its own funeral pyre. I
am filled with foreboding, for like the Roman I seem to see the River
Tiber foaming with much blood.”
Enoch Powell

On Jul 6, 12:34 am, Davey Crockett <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html)

Quoted message said:

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

Quoted message said:

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874).

I think many cyclists are unaware of the durability problems with
composites. It's amazing that the bike companies can sell frame with
such a short warranty period.

Quoted message said:

For the rider who doesn't need or can't afford a "throw away" frame,
Steel is the answer

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
"To see and not speak out would be a great betrayal. It is as if
watching my nation busily engaged in heaping its own funeral pyre. I
am filled with foreboding, for like the Roman I seem to see the River
Tiber foaming with much blood."
Enoch Powell

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

I think this one is overblown. Yes, carbon fibre can be damaged in a crash,
in ways which are not visible without a stress jig. But I crashed a carbon
fibre bike at 46mph into solid granite two years ago. We swapped out the
forks and handlebars on the precautionary principle, and sent the frame
back to the makers to be checked on their stress jig. It was fine, and I'm
still riding it.

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html

Carbon is /incredibly/ strong and resilient.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

Consider yourself lucky. Try taking multple crashes with your frame
and see what happens.. I am not sure what how lugged carbon frames
compare with monocoque frames. The Trek OCLV's are nice because they
had a program where you could get another frame for $300. I would
consider a OCLV frame, but they are not available in my size without
going 26" wheel.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html)

Quoted message said:

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

Quoted message said:

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874).

I think this one is overblown. Yes, carbon fibre can be damaged in a crash,
in ways which are not visible without a stress jig. But I crashed a carbon
fibre bike at 46mph into solid granite two years ago. We swapped out the
forks and handlebars on the precautionary principle, and sent the frame
back to the makers to be checked on their stress jig. It was fine, and I'm
still riding it.

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html

Carbon is /incredibly/ strong and resilient.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

Quoted post said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html)

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874).

Well, the seat tube on my steel bike (Columbus SL) broke into two
without a single crash (in particular, I was on a training ride when
it broke, and I didn't crash). I otherwise don't put a lot of stress
on my bike, e.g., I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

-ilan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I worked in bike shop for years and I think the prices have really
gotten out of hand especially when one compares the technical gains.

I don't think that there are any gains. And I agree with Jobst that people
racing the pro circuits should now be limits to a single bike for the entire
race. If the frame or fork breaks they're simply out of the race. That would
improve the reliability of the equipment in rather short order.

A person I know was one of the mechanics on a pro US team and he said that
they broke carbon frames all the time. He also said that if someone fell on
the frame they'd often trash it because you can't tell internal frame
problems and you don't want your ride having a frame break apart in the
middle of a sprint in front of the TV cameras. Bad publicity.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

Yeah, you college professor types are all weak kneed and thin. What was it
Shakespeare wrote about Brutus?

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

Yeah, you college professor types are all weak kneed and thin. What was it
Shakespeare wrote about Brutus?

My mistake - Cassius: "Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks
too much: such men are dangerous."

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

Yeah, you college professor types are all weak kneed and thin. What was
it Shakespeare wrote about Brutus?

"Brutus is an honourable man."

Nah, doesn't describe anyone 'round here.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

I think this one is overblown. Yes, carbon fibre can be damaged in a
crash,
in ways which are not visible without a stress jig. But I crashed a carbon
fibre bike at 46mph into solid granite two years ago. We swapped out the
forks and handlebars on the precautionary principle, and sent the frame
back to the makers to be checked on their stress jig. It was fine, and I'm
still riding it.

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html

Carbon is /incredibly/ strong and resilient.

Yes, but there is no relationship between observable damage leading to
either (1) no problems or (2) failure. So, every time there *might* be a
problem (after a crash, or a fall, or a tipover while waiting for your
latte) you either (1) replace the frame or (2) worry.

How do you think the Boeing folks are addressing this? Their new
'dreamliner' is CF!

Quoted message said:

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

giorgitd said:

Yes, but there is no relationship between observable damage leading to
either (1) no problems or (2) failure. So, every time there *might* be a
problem (after a crash, or a fall, or a tipover while waiting for your
latte) you either (1) replace the frame or (2) worry.

Apparently, Lotto and Milram take option (b)

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12634.0.html

(Lotto mechanic🙂 "We had a good look over Robbie McEwen's bike after his crash yesterday (Sunday), but all we had to do was change his handlebar tape."
....
On very rare occasions, they have to change a bike too.

"It's not often we change bikes because the frame is broken," added Rombauts, who tends to the bike of top German sprinter Erik Zabel.

Dan

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, you college professor types are all weak kneed and thin. What was it
Shakespeare wrote about Brutus?

My mistake - Cassius: "Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks
too much: such men are dangerous."

I thought Cassius had feet of Clay.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

I thought Cassius had feet of Clay.

Wasn't he involved in the Boxer Rebellion?

in message <[email hidden]>, giorgitd

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

(http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/tech/articles/12564.0.html )

"The spares get washed and tuned every other day and God forbid if
someone crashes, no matter how minor, mechanics change out the
handlebar, stem and fork - at the very least. If the frame is so much
as suspected to be damaged it's changed out as well. Imagine if two or
three guys crash in one day, whew"

This is one reason why I am very reluctant to spend huge sums of money
on a composite frame that could be history after a single crash. For
all the advances in composites de-lamination and stress points are
still a unresolved issue. Now 3d weaved composites my resolve the de-
lamination issue (http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?3874 ).

I think this one is overblown. Yes, carbon fibre can be damaged in a
crash,
in ways which are not visible without a stress jig. But I crashed a
carbon fibre bike at 46mph into solid granite two years ago. We swapped
out the forks and handlebars on the precautionary principle, and sent
the frame back to the makers to be checked on their stress jig. It was
fine, and I'm still riding it.

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html

Carbon is /incredibly/ strong and resilient.

Yes, but there is no relationship between observable damage leading to
either (1) no problems or (2) failure. So, every time there *might* be a
problem (after a crash, or a fall, or a tipover while waiting for your
latte) you either (1) replace the frame or (2) worry.

How do you think the Boeing folks are addressing this? Their new
'dreamliner' is CF!

If you buy a new Look frame, it comes with a certificate of it's individual
readings on the stress test rig. If you crash it, send it back to Look,
they put it back on the rig, check the readings, if within a specified
margin of the original it's good, otherwise you scrap it. Other
manufacturers don't give you individual readouts for each frame, but will
still have type parameters for each model, and again if on test the frame
is within parameters it's OK, if not, scrap it.

Personally I love carbon fibre frames. They perform much better and are at
the same time more comfortable than any other frame material.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> I've never used a 12 tooth cog, and the 13 very
> rarely, so I blame the frame builder, Marinoni.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, you college professor types are all weak kneed and thin. What was
it
Shakespeare wrote about Brutus?

My mistake - Cassius: "Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks
too much: such men are dangerous."

I thought Cassius had feet of Clay.

Is that why the Bear went down? Or was it the Flashing Fists of Fury?

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought Cassius had feet of Clay.

Wasn't he involved in the Boxer Rebellion?

Barbara sucks.