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Carbon fiber seatbase - Why buy?

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2 July 2004
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TheBadger587
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  1. I'm sure they're really nice and all... but what about a CF seat
    justifies its cost? would a stiffener plate do the same job?

    --
    TheBadger587 - Level 4

    Well i Guess not the retarded ones... but how could you even say
    something like that? jeez cleveland, there's edgy and then theres
    offensive. Good day sir!
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  2. I have found that the CF seat bases are stiff, light and trouble free.
    I have many unicycles and if I could I would have a CF on all of them.
    The CF seat bases are, most certainly, worth the money - if you can
    afford/justify that luxury of having the best.

    Tommy

    --
    Tmornstar - Grandmaster 2T

    Tommy Thompson
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  3. If your a serious unicyclist at a high level of the sport and have the
    money you pretty much want the best equipment. Hopping that 1 inch
    higher makes you... able to hop 1 inch higher than you previously could?

    --
    Robbie - Street Unicyclist

    And how is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every
    time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain.
    Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to
    drive? - Homer Simpson
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  4. The GB4 stiffener plate is a very good way to strengthen a seat. It
    takes a lot of the flex out of the seat when pulling or pushing on the
    handle. It also greatly increases the life of the seat.

    But the metal stiffener isn't a perfect fix. It's heavy. But more
    importantly it doesn't protect the entire seat. The back part of the
    seat is still un-reinforced and it's still possible to crack the back
    part of the seat. It's also still possible to crack the front half of
    the seat even with the stiffener. The stiffener will lengthen the life
    of the seat, but will not last as long as the carbon fiber seat base.

    The carbon fiber seat base isn't without it's problems. You have to
    drill your own holes. It would sure suck to drill the holes off center,
    or otherwise mess up, and be left with a $90 unusable seat base. The CF
    seat base also is not indestructible. It can still break. Just ask
    Ryan Atkins.

    The CF seat base is the best thing we've got right now for a strong
    durable seat base. It's worth it in the long run, but in the short term
    a GB4 stiffener will be a lot easier on the pocketbook.

    In another thread someone was asking about how you keep the bolts from
    spinning in the CF seat base. The trick is to drill an undersized hole,
    then use a small file to file the hole square. Make the square just big
    enough to fit a carriage bolt. Presto. No spinning bolts to worry
    about. But it sure is a pain filing the holes square by hand.

    Some people have gotten creative and mounted a 'T-nut'
    (http://tinyurl.com/2gmbs) in the CF base. Then you use a low profile
    allen head machine screw up through the bottom of the seat to secure the
    handle and seatpost. But I'm not sure how they are able to secure the
    T-nut in the carbon fiber. T-nuts are designed to sink in to wood. You
    can't get the prongs to sink in to carbon fiber. They must be doing
    something tricky.

    But yeah, getting the holes and bolts in the carbon fiber base is a
    pain.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  5. When I ordered my muni last december, I got a miyata with a GB4
    stiffener plate. It was good for me then, but you really notice a
    weight difference on somebody else's seat with a CF base. After a
    couple months, I was sorry that I didn't put in the extra $60 and get
    the CF. (The miyata seatbase was $10, GB4 was $10) Now that I have
    upgraded, my Muni is unstoppable. The rigidness and lightness
    combination of the CF base cannot be beat.

    If you are worried about drilling holes wrong, just spend a long time
    drawing the holes on, and figuring out where you want them. The key is:
    Have a lot of time when you are drilling your holes. Take your time.
    Don't rush.

    Later,

    Jess

    --
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  6. john_childs said:

    Some people have gotten creative and mounted a 'T-nut'
    (http://tinyurl.com/2gmbs) in the CF base. Then you use a low profile
    allen head machine screw up through the bottom of the seat to secure the
    handle and seatpost. But I'm not sure how they are able to secure the
    T-nut in the carbon fiber. T-nuts are designed to sink in to wood. You
    can't get the prongs to sink in to carbon fiber. They must be doing
    something tricky.

    I have used a sort of t-nut with small holes instead of prongs (though
    not on unicycles) by simply gluing them in place with epoxy.
    Presumably the holes are for small nails, but I didn't bother. This
    was in a lighter-duty setting than a unicycle seat, but I would still
    consider using them for this purpose. Depending on the thickness of
    the seat base, I'd consider adding some small screws into or stiff
    wire threaded through the base.

    Ken

  7. what I like about them is I never have to worry about my seat breaking.
    just the seatpost. But Im ok with that. Of course, I got them several
    years ago when they were a bit cheaper than they are now. But before
    getting my first, I broke (on the back unreinforced section) two miyata
    seat bases (japonese made, not chinese) in one week. That's when I knew
    I needed something better.

    I also have mine imbedded with t-nuts. and it works wonderfully. what
    we did, was drill a main hole, and one small hole for one of the prongs.
    then we bent the other 3 prongs out of the way, and epoxied the whole
    thing in place. Never had a problem with it.

    --
    Max_Dingemans - Hey Look, who's that?

    BLAH!
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  8. Jester2000 said:

    * The key is: Have a lot of time when you are drilling your holes.
    Take your time. Don't rush. *

    I'd also recommend buying one of those cheap disposable dust masks that
    painters and doctors sometimes use, and wear it when you're filing the
    round holes square. That process produces a lot of CF dust, which isn't
    all that much fun to breathe.

    --
    tomblackwood - Registered Nurtz

    Tailgate at your own risk.....

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  9. Logically, the CF base has ONE advantages.

    Wait, Weight?
    I used to chase weight. I thought my Profile cranks were sooo heavy.
    I thought my Kris Holm seat was too heavy.
    Then I actually WEIGHED the unicycle compared to other unicycles.
    According to the scale, my unicycle was at or below the weight of the
    ones that "felt" lighter by hand. Seat height or tire pressure changes
    will probably help more than one pound of weight. Think about HOW MUCH
    weight is actually saved by the CF base. I can put that much weight on
    (my body) in a week. Might as well look to save weight in my leg armor,
    shoes, socks and - gee toss that water pack as well.
    Before buying the 'weight' argument for $90, you may want to just spend
    a little time building muscles to handle that whole extra pound!

    Stiffy?
    So the back of your seat has less chance of cracking. Show of hands, how
    many of you with CF bases have previously cracked the BACK of the seat
    off downward? Self-preservation issues are raised here. That little bit
    of flex (which I haven't felt yet - even though I weight 250 pounds) in
    the back of the seat may just help your body and back from getting beat
    to death.

    Durability?
    john_childs raised some valid points about this issue, but he stopped
    short on the math.
    Think about it . . .
    How much does it cost to completely REPLACE a Torker LX frame?
    The point is that you can replace the part that breaks for $10.00!!!
    Wow.
    Oh, and if you are the one individual who breaks a GB4 stiffener AND the
    guarantee that is offered does not apply, you can REPLACE the stiffener
    for a whopping $10.
    Think about this friends . . . . . you can have 4 GB4 stiffeners AND 4
    replacement frames for the cost of ONE CF base. Economics highlight the
    truth of the matter.
    (It could be remotely argued that if your seat fails on the trail, it's
    not fun. And, that the LX frame has more chance of failing. For that
    remote senerio, it is acceptable to pack a replacement frame 🙂 )

    Perception boosts Performance.
    The true advantage/benefit of the CF base lies in one word:
    Perception.
    The owners believe it is DRAMATICALLY lighter, stronger and "cheaper in
    the long run." Whether or not they did a detailed comparison or not,
    they really believe they have the "best solution."

    Perception *can* make you ride better, and hop higher.

    P.S. I use the "heavy" Kris Holm foam in my seat also (but if I really
    got "weight anal" I could shift to an airseat config).

    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

    Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
    Drew Brown
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  10. Dang, what a naysayer!

    Yes, you can replace a GB4 stiffener plate for $10. How much time is
    involved each time you have to replace it? How much is your time worth?
    Cha-ching.

    Also, the carbon bases are noticeably stiffer than the plastic/nylon
    ones. This will make a difference in performance. Seat flex used to
    matter to me mostly for racing. A stiff seat meant better acceleration
    off the line. And that would mean the difference between winning and
    losing some races.

    BUT

    I have mostly bypassed the whole carbon seat base thing. I didn't break
    seats as much as I broke Miyata posts. A stiff seat would just make me
    break the post that much faster. So I had some gusseted posts made that
    connected up to the front bumper bolts. Seat is super-rigid, small
    weight gain from gusset, seat and post will never break.

    I am not Max or others who have broken the back end of the seat, but I
    can see this as being an issue for hardcore Trials riders. The gusset
    method can be applied to the back end as well.

    Even if you have custom welding done, it will still probably work out
    cheaper than a carbon seat base.

    --
    johnfoss - Walkin' on the edge

    John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
    "jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
    www.unicycling.com

    "Beer me." -- Scot Cooper, at the end of a group ride all the way up and
    all the way down Mt. Diablo (3300'😉, a 20 mile round trip of road and
    trail.
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  11. In article <[email hidden]>,
    ChangingLINKS.com <[email hidden]> wrote:
    )
    )Think about this friends . . . . . you can have 4 GB4 stiffeners AND 4
    )replacement frames for the cost of ONE CF base. Economics highlight the
    )truth of the matter.

    What's the value of your time? Perhaps nothing. But my time is worth a
    lot, so not having to fix the seat pays for itself, the first time I'd
    have to fix the seat.
    -Tom

  12. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *So the back of your seat has less chance of cracking. Show of hands,
    how many of you with CF bases have previously cracked the BACK of the
    seat off downward? *

    Me! 😄

    The situation was very different a couple years ago when I got my carbon
    fiber seat bases. The GB4 stiffener didn't exist. If you wanted a seat
    stiffener you would have to get one custom made and that would end up
    costing more than a CF seat base. You also couldn't buy just the
    plastic seat base for a Miyata saddle. You would have to buy the entire
    saddle. I've still got a box full of Miyata saddle parts from brand new
    saddles that I cannibalized to replace the parts that were breaking on
    my muni. At about $40 a pop for a new seat, I was spending a lot on
    Miyata seats. And to top it off, there wasn't a reliable supply of
    seats back then. Miyata saddles got shipped to the US once a year and
    when the saddles were gone, they were gone till the next shipment. I
    would buy 2 or 3 saddles at a time just so I would have some on hand for
    when the inevitably sold out.

    The situation back then was quite different from now. Back then the CF
    seat base made a lot of sense. Now is a different story. The exchange
    rate was also better back then so the CF seat base was somewhere around
    the $60 range instead of the $80 range it is now.

    CF seat bases are also very good for freestyle riders doing seat busting
    skills like side ride.

    If someone is looking for a strong and stiff seat the CF base is still
    the best option. But the GB4 stiffener gives a good option for those
    looking to spend less.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  13. The farther the thread goes the more irrational the argument:

    Tom Holub: "not having to fix the seat pays for itself, the first time
    I'd
    have to fix the seat."

    Tom forgot that this is a thread in a RECREATIONAL unicycling forum. The
    way I have my seat setup, I can litterally change any part within 5
    minutes. Really. 5 minutes.
    Not only does that make Tom's time extremely expensive, but it contrasts
    the fact that he is on FREE TIME when doing unicycling related things.
    Insult to all of our intelligences, I must say. Tom goes on to imply
    that having a carbon fiber frame means being "maintainence free." That
    is far from the truth:
    1. Tom forgets you have to drill your own holes to a certain size AND
    file those holes - which takes more time than slapping together parts
    that already work together.
    2. Tom omits the fact that according to unicycle.com, I'm the only one
    who would have matched the Kris Holm foam (specifically) to the carbon
    fiber frame/GB4 upgrade. That means a lot of people are running custom
    variations (like the air seat) that take much more time to set up.
    3. Finally, Tom omits the fact that unicycle maintainence is PART OF THE
    SPORT. You are going to have to pump up tires, tighten bolts, change
    components, shop, dream, design, modify parts of your unicycle. To say
    that taking 5 minutes to replace the seat is burdensome is . . . .
    4. Finally, Tom omits the fact that something CAN go wrong with the CF
    frame. For example, those holes that are drilled and filed - well, they
    could wear lose (expecially if you have a tendency like me to over
    tighten things).
    Not gonna happen with 1/4 thick steel - you're more likely to snap the
    bolt or strip the threads.

    Time being Tom's only consideration leaves me to assume the remaining
    points were, well, common sense.

    john_childs: "A stiff seat meant better acceleration off the line. And
    that would mean the difference between winning and losing some races."
    Unicycling is not that serious. Unicycle Racing isn't even an Olympic
    sport, (where this type of thing would matter) is it? Also, it raises
    the question about how many unicycling races were lost by a fraction of
    a second. Need more speed, get more skill, eat a better breakfast,
    change your tire pressure, change the tire, have a "good" day - but
    change the frame of your seat? That is in the same catagory as sanding
    the paint off of your unicycle so that it is lighter.

    john_childs: "I am not Max or others who have broken the back end of the
    seat, but I can see this as being an issue for hardcore Trials riders.
    The gusset method can be applied to the back end as well."
    It was noted that Ryan broke a CF frame. If he replaced that seat frame
    with carbon fiber it will take twice as much time AND more than twice as
    much money.

    Finally, some unicyclist run "seat post shock absorbers" to dampen
    bumps. The minimal flex (which I haven't felt at 250 pounds) is in line
    with the use of shock absorbers and lower tire pressure. Think about it:
    you need a extremely stiff seat, covered by an extremely CUSHY
    innertube? That is not logical in anyway whatsoever. It is like the "pea
    under the mattress story (Princess and the Pea). How can you feel the
    seat flex under AIR?

    Contrarily, ultra stiff seats would be inline with:
    1. Not using any padding whatsoever.
    2. Using extremely high air pressure in the tire.
    3. Not using a seat post shock absorber.

    john_childs: "The situation back then was quite different from now. Back
    then the CF seat base made a lot of sense. Now is a different story."
    Enough said.

    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

    Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
    Drew Brown
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  14. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *Before buying the 'weight' argument for $90, you may want to just
    spend a little time building muscles to handle that whole extra
    pound!*


    a lighter seat is also better during a UPD. i dont like a heavy seat to
    come hammering down into my ankle or pounding my brake lever into the
    dirt. lighter is better for more than just the scale.

    Quoted message said:

    The farther the thread goes the more irrational the argument:


    and the more arrogant you become.

    Quoted message said:

    john_childs: "A stiff seat meant better acceleration off the line. And
    that would mean the difference between winning and losing some races."


    John Foss said that not John Childs.

    Quoted message said:

    Think about it: you need a extremely stiff seat, covered by an
    extremely CUSHY innertube? That is not logical in anyway whatsoever.
    It is like the "pea under the mattress story (Princess and the Pea).
    How can you feel the seat flex under AIR?


    dude? the seat flexes up as well as down.dont you feel the flex when
    you grab the handle and power up some thing? its not about your butt
    feeling pea's its about getting power to the pedals. a stiffer seat
    transfers more power and a significant amount at that.

    Quoted message said:

    john_childs: "The situation back then was quite different from now.
    Back then the CF seat base made a lot of sense. Now is a different
    story." [enough said].


    maybe its enough for a frugle person such as yourself but for those
    willing to spend the money... they will soon discover a CF base makes
    for a stronger, lighter and more effeciant tool.

    --
    jagur - #3649_all fluff i hear?

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  15. Man, such strong opinions over a seat. I would hate to see you guys
    discuss politics.😄

    --
    bugman - Survivor 2004 Wolfman Duathalon
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  16. Oh, and I personally cant stand the flex in miyata/KH seats. Im not
    talking about below the ass, I mean in the handle.

    Edit: Even with a stiffner plate.

    --
    Max_Dingemans - Hey Look, who's that?

    BLAH!
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  17. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *Blah blah spiteful blah blah agressive blah blah hostile blah blah
    blah blah blah *

    Shoot, ChangingLINKS.com, in the time it took you to type up that whole
    diatribe, you could have gone out, etched the plates for your
    counterfiet bills, printed the money, ordered the CF base, drilled the
    holes, squared them out, and changed your setup over. Or the opposite,
    if that's what you were railing against.

    See "takeavalium.com" for suggestions on next steps...

    --
    tomblackwood - Registered Nurtz

    Tailgate at your own risk.....

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  18. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *Enough said. *

    That would be nice!

    There seems to be an inverse relationship between experience and the
    amount of verbage spewed forth.

    I just found out that a few weeks of intense playing of Wff 'N Proof
    <http://www.wff-n-proof.com/> can raise your IQ by 20 points, probably
    by learnin' 'bout reasoning in the English language.

    Personally all I know about carbon fiber is that I adopted a KH muni
    with one attached. I kind of like the checkered pattern on the base of
    the seat.

    Jagur's comments regarding lightness sound good enough for me to
    consider the same for my freestyle. How many times has my seat pecked me
    on the achilies tendon? Oh, and then I can start practicing side ride,
    that must be what is holding me back.

    I think the mentality expressed for 'break and replace' is great if you
    work for or represent a mass marketer of cheap products, or maybe auto
    bumpers. Great unicyclist were not born of cheap equipment. Having the
    thought of equipment failure in you mind when you are trying to practice
    some cool skill just doesn't work.

    --
    iunicycle - Old back, new cricks
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  19. I’m enjoying the bantering over something as simple as a unicycle
    seat-base. I’m glad there is a place to vent and become so impassioned
    over CF verses plastic. Stiff verses flexible, breakable verses
    repairable, its all fun. However, the thing that immediately struck me
    when I became engrossed with unicycling was the absolutely ridiculous
    poor quality of components available. That was only 3 years ago! Since
    that time we have had individuals (such as George Barnes and Steve
    Howard) and companies like Torker, Bedford and Unicycle.Com step-up to
    create and provide some outstanding quality products and services.

    The first time that I tried to replace a Miyata handle only to discover
    that the bolts were spinning in the seat base my avocation and source of
    joy became a source of frustration and contempt for who would produce
    and sell (for good money) such a poorly designed product. I even enjoy
    the time that I spend working on my unicycles but dealing with design
    flaws is not how I, personally, want to spend those precious few, free
    moments with my beloved unicycles. For me, and you may be different, it
    is worth the extra money to have quality products that are not $40,
    disposable pieces of plastic that take a week of down-time to replace.

    Tommy

    --
    Tmornstar - Grandmaster 2T

    Tommy Thompson
    [email hidden] (No PMs. please)
    Memphis Unicycle Club
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  20. I've been working on a lighter stiffener by asking George Barnes to make
    me some thin stiffeners, then having them hardened here in CT. I have a
    batch here. One such stiffener was put in Ben Plotkin-Swing's 24
    Endurance seen in an album 'here'
    (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albuu55). It is a little flexier, but a
    lot lighter, and so far has withstood the extra torque of the handle and
    of 24-hour endurance racing. Ben also has one on his trials machine.

    They are probably going to be available for about $25-30, which reflects
    a lot of extra time, trips, shipping, and expense to go through the
    extra stages of processing.

    I don't have exact weights and weight comparisons yet.

    Some advantages:

    - much lighter than original stiffener
    - probably equally as strong as the original stiffener
    - much easier and less risky to install than CF
    - half the price of CF (depending on how you calculate it)
    - still allows retrofit of existing Sustek saddles
    - permits those who like the Miyata saddle shape to have a strong, yet
    still light, seat

    Disadvantages (?):
    - a little flexier than both the heavy plate and the CF
    - does not extend back past seatpost adapter bolts (yet)

    I'm past the point where I can hand these out for free, but people who
    are willing to take a risk with $25-30 + shipping are welcome to contact
    me, knowing that there is no warrantee. Of course, you also know that
    the batteries will never need replacing!

    --
    U-Turn - Member of Generation XO

    Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.

    '29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/)

    'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/albup39)

    'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com)

    -- Dave Stockton
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