carbohydrate needs

In article <[email hidden]>, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs for
long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
process of getting into shape.

I have diabetes so I can't do carbohydrate loading beforehand. Last
weekend I had a high carb breakfast then pumped up my tires and blew a
tube. I didn't have another (learned that lesson) and the bike shop was
closed so I just couldn't ride, and my blood glucose went too high
because I didn't work off my breakfast. I'm type 2 (no medication) and
my body seems to be pretty good still at maintaining my blood glucose
level while actually exercising--I've not had problems with going either
too high or too low while exercising.

I'm not going very fast but in pretty hilly terrain--1/2 mile or so in
first gear several times in every hour of riding. The longest rides I
have done so far have been 3 to 4 hours, 40 miles or so, and for recent
long rides I have varied from 30 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of
500 calories) to 90 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of 800 calories)
total of everything I ate right before and during the ride. That has
felt like plenty to keep my energy up.

I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to need
to replace more energy to go a longer distance?

Pam

Hi Pam in SC
Keep up the good work🙂 Being a type 2 myself I don't carbo load but do eat
during rides of 80 miles or more.

You need to make better contingency plans though. Blowing a tube is not a
serious excuse for not riding. You should have spares at ALL times and a fresh
patch kit. Carry at least two tubes with you on the trail. When experienced
riders get flats many swap the flat tube and repair the flat after they get
home. Do carry a patch kit too though. I generally carry a patched tube and a
new tube. If an emergency arises and someone else needs a tube they get the
patched one first. If I flat first, I get the patched one. I generally carry a
partially used patch kit and a new one for the same reason. The hapless rider
gets the partial kit. As you begin to put more miles in you will likely get
more flats. It comes with the territory especially if you happen to ride on
worn tires. I know better but often do it anyway. Believe me, you will get good
at changing tubes and tires.

Have you considered yet how you are going to ride when the winter weather turns
bad? You might ask here how others use cycling trainers and or rollers. I don't
have a need for these myself but others use them for good effect until spring
or a warm winter day. Keep on cranking, we're rooting for you.

Kevan Smith wrote:
:: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:26:53 -0400, pam_in_sc
:: <[email hidden]> from wrote:
::
::: Kevan Smith wrote:
:::
:::: If you are getting into shape, I presume that also means losing a
:::: little weight. Therefore, don't worry about your calorie deficit.
:::: Eat just enough to avoid bonking. OTOH, if you are happy with your
:::: weight, then try eating about 150 to 300 calories per hour of
:::: riding; the faster you ride, the more you eat. That's enough to
:::: replenish the energy supplies, but not so much that you need to
:::: focus on digestion rather than riding. It's about one or two gel
:::: packets or a few Fig Newtons.
:::
::: I'm losing weight still, but not in any hurry. Thanks for the rule
::: of thumb to work from. I wish I understood the subtleties of
::: feeling hungry, low blood sugar, and bonking, but I suspect they
::: are hopelessly complicated, particularly as I ride mostly in the
::: more fat-burning heart rate range, not at high intensity. I don't
::: think I'm likely to truly bonk, but I easily get into a low state
::: when I haven't eaten for a while. Diabetes seems to involve the
::: body handling energy reserves less smoothly.
::
:: If I were diabetic, I wouldn't consider any sort of long-term,
:: glycogen-depleting exercise without the in-depth expert advice of a
:: physician. I'm not saying don't ride your bike; please, keep doing
:: that! But, if you are going to be exploring the edges of what you
:: can do and pushing past them, then, please, also see a doctor.

That's good sound advice to give someone on the 'net, but the sad truth of
the matter is most doctors won't have a clue about this and will likely just
say "don't ride" or "take it easy", being that to err on the side that seems
safe is best.

I'm a type 2 and I ride at high intensity (as determined by my HRM) and I
regularly deplete glycogen (via LCing and weight training and via long hard
bike rides). I've worked up slowly enough to know what I can handle and to
learn how my body reacts. However, my situation and my body's reaction may
be vastly different than Pam's, which is what makes diabetes such a scary
thing.

whinds said:

Hi Pam in SC
Keep up the good work🙂 Being a type 2 myself I don't carbo load but do eat
during rides of 80 miles or more.

You need to make better contingency plans though. Blowing a tube is not a
serious excuse for not riding. You should have spares at ALL times and a fresh
patch kit. Carry at least two tubes with you on the trail. When experienced
riders get flats many swap the flat tube and repair the flat after they get
home. Do carry a patch kit too though. I generally carry a patched tube and a
new tube. If an emergency arises and someone else needs a tube they get the
patched one first. If I flat first, I get the patched one. I generally carry a
partially used patch kit and a new one for the same reason. The hapless rider
gets the partial kit. As you begin to put more miles in you will likely get
more flats. It comes with the territory especially if you happen to ride on
worn tires. I know better but often do it anyway. Believe me, you will get good
at changing tubes and tires.

I did learn my lesson about not having a spare tube at home. How do you
carry all that stuff? I have the largest under the seat bag I could
find at my LBS, but it doesn't hold very much. I have one of the little
patch kits with a CO2 inflator, but I would rather carry a spare tube.

Quoted message said:

Have you considered yet how you are going to ride when the winter weather turns
bad? You might ask here how others use cycling trainers and or rollers. I don't
have a need for these myself but others use them for good effect until spring
or a warm winter day. Keep on cranking, we're rooting for you.

I'm hoping in South Carolina it won't get too cold. There are however a
lot of rainy days. I'm resisting the idea of riding indoors, as I have
always said I don't do boring exercise. My husband uses a Schwinn
aerodyne exercise bike--could I ride that or would it just feel too
weird? I'm actually tempted by the idea of doing a sprint triathlon in
May, in celebration of my 50th birthday. I had a hip problem when I
first started running but am very very slowly increasing again (I'm up
to 3/4 mile every other day) without problems so far. If that keeps
working I may take up swimming when the weather gets bad in the winter.

Pam

Kevan Smith said:

Imagine how much more intense and rewarding your training would be if you
could get a referral to a specialist who could determine your individual
parameters. You could know your basal metabolic rate, glycogen depletion rate,
glucose absorption rater and more.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

I wonder if there is such a specialist closer than Atlanta (two hours
away, not counting traffic). Would they actually think those of us who
are overweight and over 40 worth talking to? What kind of specialist
would that be? There is one endocrinologist in this region, but with an
A1c of 5.6 I figure he would think I was wasting his time.

Are there really doctors out there who are interested in how individuals
vary, rather than one-size-fits-all solutions? "My body my science
experiment" appeals to me, but for close control of diabetes it also
seems to be the only choice.

Pam

In article <[email hidden]>, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm losing weight still, but not in any hurry. Thanks for the rule of
thumb to work from. I wish I understood the subtleties of feeling
hungry, low blood sugar, and bonking, but I suspect they are hopelessly
complicated, particularly as I ride mostly in the more fat-burning heart
rate range, not at high intensity. I don't think I'm likely to truly
bonk, but I easily get into a low state when I haven't eaten for a
while. Diabetes seems to involve the body handling energy reserves less
smoothly.

Pam

Pam do you keep a food diary? How many calories, protein, and carbs do you
usually eat before a ride? during a ride? Immediately after a ride? the rest of
the day? You say you ride slow and others have said that in that zone you are
burning mostly fat, that would explain the high blood sugar, wouldn't it?

Both Kevan Smith and Roger Zoul are giving sound advice. I guess I don't really
understand the complexities of riding and being diabetic 2. I understand
everyone is different and have different results, but I can't remember a ride
where my blood sugar was high after I finished. Then again I normally only
measure my blood sugar in the AM and it is usually too low, in the 70s. I
belong to an HMO and took their nutrition class but it wasn't much help, too
generalized. Ideally, if my insurance would cover it, I would find a doctor who
is also a cyclist like the late George Sheehan was a runner, Medical Editor for
Runner's World, and author of many books on running. Unfortunatly the only
advice/example in his book "Medical Advice for Runners" appears to be for a
type 1 diabetic.

Seriously though, it sounds as though you are on track to meet your weight loss
goals. And safely too. I'm thinking that as your body fat goes down your blood
sugar will begin to lower after a ride.

For inspiration you might want to check out Kelly Jolkowski's web page at
<http://members.cox.net/incredibleshrinkingwoman/>
Especially the bike riding pages and her experience when she rode the BRAN,
ride across Nebraska. Kelly used to post here in the news groups sometimes but
is probably too busy now.

Kevan Smith wrote:
|| On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:59:01 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
|| <[email hidden]> from wrote:
||
||| I'm a type 2 and I ride at high intensity (as determined by my HRM)
||| and I regularly deplete glycogen (via LCing and weight training and
||| via long hard bike rides). I've worked up slowly enough to know
||| what I can handle and to learn how my body reacts. However, my
||| situation and my body's reaction may be vastly different than
||| Pam's, which is what makes diabetes such a scary thing.
||
|| Imagine how much more intense and rewarding your training would be
|| if you could get a referral to a specialist who could determine your
|| individual parameters. You could know your basal metabolic rate,
|| glycogen depletion rate, glucose absorption rater and more.

Yes, very true. But a doctor won't tell me this info or refer me, no? Just
for the heck of it, I will ask next time, though.

pam_in_sc wrote:
|| Kevan Smith wrote:
||
||| Imagine how much more intense and rewarding your training would be
||| if you could get a referral to a specialist who could determine
||| your individual parameters. You could know your basal metabolic
||| rate, glycogen depletion rate, glucose absorption rater and more.
|||
||| --
||| Kevan Smith
||| [email hidden]
||
|| I wonder if there is such a specialist closer than Atlanta (two hours
|| away, not counting traffic). Would they actually think those of us
|| who
|| are overweight and over 40 worth talking to? What kind of specialist
|| would that be? There is one endocrinologist in this region, but
|| with an
|| A1c of 5.6 I figure he would think I was wasting his time.

An A1c of 5.6 is pretty good. I don't think a doctor is wasting his/her
time if you're paying! 🙂

||
|| Are there really doctors out there who are interested in how
|| individuals
|| vary, rather than one-size-fits-all solutions? "My body my science
|| experiment" appeals to me, but for close control of diabetes it also
|| seems to be the only choice.
||
|| Pam

pam_in_sc wrote:
|| whinds wrote:
|| > Hi Pam in SC
||| Keep up the good work🙂 Being a type 2 myself I don't carbo load
||| but do eat during rides of 80 miles or more.
|||
||| You need to make better contingency plans though. Blowing a tube is
||| not a serious excuse for not riding. You should have spares at ALL
||| times and a fresh patch kit. Carry at least two tubes with you on
||| the trail. When experienced riders get flats many swap the flat
||| tube and repair the flat after they get home. Do carry a patch kit
||| too though. I generally carry a patched tube and a new tube. If an
||| emergency arises and someone else needs a tube they get the patched
||| one first. If I flat first, I get the patched one. I generally
||| carry a partially used patch kit and a new one for the same reason.
||| The hapless rider gets the partial kit. As you begin to put more
||| miles in you will likely get more flats. It comes with the
||| territory especially if you happen to ride on worn tires. I know
||| better but often do it anyway. Believe me, you will get good at
||| changing tubes and tires.
||
|| I did learn my lesson about not having a spare tube at home. How do
|| you
|| carry all that stuff? I have the largest under the seat bag I could
|| find at my LBS, but it doesn't hold very much. I have one of the
|| little
|| patch kits with a CO2 inflator, but I would rather carry a spare
|| tube.

Under the saddle bags come in various sizes....I have a small one that holds
a spare tube, a co2 inflator, patch kits, tire levels, and money.

|||
||| Have you considered yet how you are going to ride when the winter
||| weather turns bad? You might ask here how others use cycling
||| trainers and or rollers. I don't have a need for these myself but
||| others use them for good effect until spring or a warm winter day.
||| Keep on cranking, we're rooting for you.
||
|| I'm hoping in South Carolina it won't get too cold. There are
|| however a
|| lot of rainy days.

I rode into November and during the week of Christmas. However, once
January came, I was off the bike until April. I plan to get a trainer this
year, however.

I'm resisting the idea of riding indoors, as I
|| have
|| always said I don't do boring exercise. My husband uses a Schwinn
|| aerodyne exercise bike--could I ride that or would it just feel too
|| weird?

I have a Schwinn Aerodyne bike -- w/ the big loud fan on the front and the
moving bars. It's nothing like riding a road bike, but it does burn
calories and is good for weight loss if you have nothing else (riding one
for 20 miles is extremely boring, but I have over 15000 miles on mine).

I'm actually tempted by the idea of doing a sprint triathlon
|| in
|| May, in celebration of my 50th birthday. I had a hip problem when I
|| first started running but am very very slowly increasing again (I'm
|| up
|| to 3/4 mile every other day) without problems so far. If that keeps
|| working I may take up swimming when the weather gets bad in the
|| winter.
||
|| Pam

"pam_in_sc" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did learn my lesson about not having a spare tube at home. How do you
carry all that stuff? I have the largest under the seat bag I could
find at my LBS, but it doesn't hold very much. I have one of the little
patch kits with a CO2 inflator, but I would rather carry a spare tube.

I can fit 2 tubes and a patch kit in my seat bag (average size one). I would
never ride alone with just a CO2 inflator, a frame pump is much more reliable.
If you always do group rides, the inflator *might* be a bit faster, but it's
easy to go through a couple of cartridges with a single flat (& still not fix
it).

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping in South Carolina it won't get too cold. There are however a
lot of rainy days. I'm resisting the idea of riding indoors, as I have
always said I don't do boring exercise. My husband uses a Schwinn
aerodyne exercise bike--could I ride that or would it just feel too
weird?

The problem with air resistance trainers is that they're incredibly loud. The
only yhing I can tolerate doing while indoors cycling is watching video or
listening to music, wind trainers ruin both.

Quoted message said:

I'm actually tempted by the idea of doing a sprint triathlon in
May, in celebration of my 50th birthday. I had a hip problem when I
first started running but am very very slowly increasing again (I'm up
to 3/4 mile every other day) without problems so far.

Our bike club (like many others, I suspect) is full of over-50 ex-runners with
bad hips and knees (including several with after-market replacements).

Peter Cole said:

"pam_in_sc" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did learn my lesson about not having a spare tube at home. How do you
carry all that stuff? I have the largest under the seat bag I could
find at my LBS, but it doesn't hold very much. I have one of the little
patch kits with a CO2 inflator, but I would rather carry a spare tube.

I can fit 2 tubes and a patch kit in my seat bag (average size one). I
would
never ride alone with just a CO2 inflator, a frame pump is much more
reliable.
If you always do group rides, the inflator *might* be a bit faster, but
it's
easy to go through a couple of cartridges with a single flat (& still
not fix
it).

I have a medium sized bag and have tire levers, a multitool, a patch kit,
a baggie with toilet paper and money, two tubes, and additional stuff. I
carry a pump mounted to a water bottle cage. I used to ride with all my
stuff in a camelback, but those things get heavy after a while.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

whinds said:

Pam do you keep a food diary? How many calories, protein, and carbs do you
usually eat before a ride? during a ride? Immediately after a ride? the rest of
the day? You say you ride slow and others have said that in that zone you are
burning mostly fat, that would explain the high blood sugar, wouldn't it?

Both Kevan Smith and Roger Zoul are giving sound advice. I guess I don't really
understand the complexities of riding and being diabetic 2. I understand
everyone is different and have different results, but I can't remember a ride
where my blood sugar was high after I finished. Then again I normally only
measure my blood sugar in the AM and it is usually too low, in the 70s. I
belong to an HMO and took their nutrition class but it wasn't much help, too
generalized. Ideally, if my insurance would cover it, I would find a doctor who
is also a cyclist like the late George Sheehan was a runner, Medical Editor for
Runner's World, and author of many books on running. Unfortunatly the only
advice/example in his book "Medical Advice for Runners" appears to be for a
type 1 diabetic.

I eat about 80 to 100 grams of carbohydrate a day. I don't count
calories. The approach I am following is basically that found at:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm If you are
interested in the justification for that approach check out the articles
at: http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/index.htm

I can eat a fair number of extra carbs and keep my bg from spiking by
taking a walk, not especially fast, so there is something more complex
going on here. I have previously seen recommendations for the book "The
Diabetic Athlete", though it is oriented more towards type 1. I guess I
will get it; it might at least clarify some of the tradeoffs.

Are you on medication that you get morning bg in the 70s instead of dawn
effect?

Pam

Bob in CT said:

I have a medium sized bag and have tire levers, a multitool, a patch
kit, a baggie with toilet paper and money, two tubes, and additional
stuff. I carry a pump mounted to a water bottle cage. I used to ride
with all my stuff in a camelback, but those things get heavy after a while.

I carry a mini lock
(http://www.bikesomewhere.com/bikesomewhere.cfm/product/8/194/2714) so I
can lock my bike when I go into a convenience store to use the bathroom,
an energy bar, a package of kleenex, a CO2 and patch kit, some large
bandaids, a chap stick, a multitool, a plastic bag to cover my leather
saddle if it rains, and my cell phone. Maybe I could pack more in if I
tried.

Pam

In article <[email hidden]>, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I did learn my lesson about not having a spare tube at home. How do you
carry all that stuff? I have the largest under the seat bag I could
find at my LBS, but it doesn't hold very much. I have one of the little
patch kits with a CO2 inflator, but I would rather carry a spare tube.

Quoted message said:

Being a Fred, I bungie my spare tubes underneath my rain jacket which is tied
beneath by small to medium seat bag. I know ultra violet is not good for tubes
but have not had any problems with rot. Someday I hope to make a bag just for
two tubes. I've checked into the CO2 route and found most stores carry the
small and medium cartridges neither will completely fill tubes. The 24 oz
version will do the job but most stores I've seen don't seem to have them in
stock. I would carry a pump anyway so what's the point? Pumping up the new tube
lets me vent my anger at the laws of nature and my ability to unerringly flat
at the most inopportune times.

Does anyone know about the pressure capability of the paint gun/hobbiest
cartridges?

"whinds" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Being a Fred, I bungie my spare tubes underneath my rain jacket which is

tied

Quoted message said:

beneath by small to medium seat bag. I know ultra violet is not good for

tubes

Quoted message said:

but have not had any problems with rot. Someday I hope to make a bag just

for

Quoted message said:

two tubes.

Another method is to tape a tightly folded tube to the seatpost with
electrical tape.

pam_in_sc wrote:
:: whinds wrote:
::
::: Pam do you keep a food diary? How many calories, protein, and carbs
::: do you usually eat before a ride? during a ride? Immediately after
::: a ride? the rest of the day? You say you ride slow and others have
::: said that in that zone you are burning mostly fat, that would
::: explain the high blood sugar, wouldn't it?
:::
::: Both Kevan Smith and Roger Zoul are giving sound advice. I guess I
::: don't really understand the complexities of riding and being
::: diabetic 2. I understand everyone is different and have different
::: results, but I can't remember a ride where my blood sugar was high
::: after I finished. Then again I normally only measure my blood sugar
::: in the AM and it is usually too low, in the 70s. I belong to an HMO
::: and took their nutrition class but it wasn't much help, too
::: generalized. Ideally, if my insurance would cover it, I would find
::: a doctor who is also a cyclist like the late George Sheehan was a
::: runner, Medical Editor for Runner's World, and author of many books
::: on running. Unfortunatly the only advice/example in his book
::: "Medical Advice for Runners" appears to be for a type 1 diabetic.
::
:: I eat about 80 to 100 grams of carbohydrate a day. I don't count
:: calories. The approach I am following is basically that found at:
:: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm If you are
:: interested in the justification for that approach check out the
:: articles at: http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/index.htm

Good...those are Jenny's pages. She is very knowledgable about diabetes and
low carbing. Still, once you ramp up your biking activity, you're going to
likely have some experiences that are outside of what she has encountered.

::
:: I can eat a fair number of extra carbs and keep my bg from spiking by
:: taking a walk, not especially fast, so there is something more
:: complex going on here. I have previously seen recommendations for
:: the book "The Diabetic Athlete", though it is oriented more towards
:: type 1. I guess I will get it; it might at least clarify some of
:: the tradeoffs.

You do have Dr. Bernstein's book, right, the newly revised version, yes?

::
:: Are you on medication that you get morning bg in the 70s instead of
:: dawn effect?
::
:: Pam

In article <[email hidden]>, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I eat about 80 to 100 grams of carbohydrate a day. I don't count
calories. The approach I am following is basically that found at:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm If you are
interested in the justification for that approach check out the articles
at: http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/index.htm

I count calories and carbs. I can't believe your carb count is that low and yet
your blood sugar is as high as it is. I'm allowed 195 grams carb daily.

Quoted message said:

I can eat a fair number of extra carbs and keep my bg from spiking by
taking a walk, not especially fast, so there is something more complex
going on here. I have previously seen recommendations for the book "The
Diabetic Athlete", though it is oriented more towards type 1. I guess I
will get it; it might at least clarify some of the tradeoffs.

I had forgotten about that book. I checked for reviews on it at Amazon but they
did not have a listing.

Quoted message said:

Are you on medication that you get morning bg in the 70s instead of dawn
effect?

Pam

I have been off meds since about the first month I was diagnosed almost 3 years
ago. I went on a strict diet and walking every day and stair climbing in the
parking structure where I had worked. I soon started getting dizzy and having
headaches, my blood sugar dropped below 70! My primary doctor took me off
Glipizide, my only med, and now I just monitor my blood once in the AM and go
in for check ups quarterly. I have done some running but now do mostly cycling
because I enjoy it more. Yeah I'm now a bike bum. Since about a year ago I've
cut my total weekly mileage down, now my plan is 50-80 miles a day 3 days a
week, sprints one day, small hills two days. Twice a month one of my long rides
I try to do 80 - 150 miles. I'm a terrible climber as most of my rides are
flat. i'm very fortunate that I live near a bike trail and never have to worry
about cars except when I do my hill work.

whinds said:

I count calories and carbs. I can't believe your carb count is that low and yet
your blood sugar is as high as it is. I'm allowed 195 grams carb daily.

My morning fasting is usually 95 to 105, one hour after eating 110-140,
two hours after eating 100-120 (I don't check two hours much unless I
have eaten a high fat meal or been higher than I expected at one hour).

Quoted message said:

I had forgotten about that book. I checked for reviews on it at Amazon but they
did not have a listing.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0736032711/qid=1095290606/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-7884903-7101555
The author is Sheri Colberg

Quoted message said:

I have been off meds since about the first month I was diagnosed almost 3 years
ago. I went on a strict diet and walking every day and stair climbing in the
parking structure where I had worked. I soon started getting dizzy and having
headaches, my blood sugar dropped below 70! My primary doctor took me off
Glipizide, my only med, and now I just monitor my blood once in the AM and go
in for check ups quarterly. I have done some running but now do mostly cycling
because I enjoy it more. Yeah I'm now a bike bum. Since about a year ago I've
cut my total weekly mileage down, now my plan is 50-80 miles a day 3 days a
week, sprints one day, small hills two days. Twice a month one of my long rides
I try to do 80 - 150 miles. I'm a terrible climber as most of my rides are
flat. i'm very fortunate that I live near a bike trail and never have to worry
about cars except when I do my hill work.

I'm riding about 100 miles a week when the weather cooperates (I think
rain from hurricane Ivan will hit us this weekend). My shorter rides
are very hilly terrain, by my standards--I have 3 or 4 hills an hour
where I am in my lowest gear for half a mile.

It sounds like your diabetes has reversed with exercise (and weight
loss?) more than mine has. In order to keep my bg in the limits I have
chosen, I have to be just as careful what I eat now as I did when I
weighed 40 lbs more (when I was diagnosed in Nov. 2003).

Pam