Car vs skateboard?

Badger_South said:

Interesting case on 'Judge Judy' today in which a 15 y.o. child was riding
a skateboard in a parking lot and was hit by a female driver who was on a
cellphone and speeding.

I always thought that such an accident would always be resulted in favor

of

Quoted message said:

the pedestrian, but strangely, the judge said the kid shouldn't have been
riding in a parking lot. No evidence that he was tricking - just riding.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Apparently the Judge doesn't think speeding and breaking the law is worthy
of a fine. In fact in every jurisdiction I've seen, going 15 miles over

the

Quoted message said:

limit is reckless driving.

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

Important point of information. Judge Judy is not really a court, but a
civil arbitration. She doesn't have the authority to levee fines or impose
jail sentences. She did everything she could, except write a letter to a
DA.

Austin

AustinMN said:

Badger_South said:

Interesting case on 'Judge Judy' today in which a 15 y.o. child was riding
a skateboard in a parking lot and was hit by a female driver who was on a
cellphone and speeding.

I always thought that such an accident would always be resulted in favor

of

Quoted message said:

the pedestrian, but strangely, the judge said the kid shouldn't have been
riding in a parking lot. No evidence that he was tricking - just riding.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Apparently the Judge doesn't think speeding and breaking the law is worthy
of a fine. In fact in every jurisdiction I've seen, going 15 miles over

the

Quoted message said:

limit is reckless driving.

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

Important point of information. Judge Judy is not really a court, but a
civil arbitration. She doesn't have the authority to levee fines or impose
jail sentences. She did everything she could, except write a letter to a
DA.

Austin

Well she denied the kid money for 'pain and suffering', and said it was b/c
he had no right to ride in a parking lot, which I'd dispute.

Yeah, I know she's not a real court. My commentary was meant to be also
about societal attitudes that seem to favor automobile drives and disfavor
others, I guess.

-B

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:55:31 GMT, "AustinMN" <[email hidden]>
|| wrote:
||
||| Badger_South wrote:
|||| Interesting case on 'Judge Judy' today in which a 15 y.o. child
|||| was riding a skateboard in a parking lot and was hit by a female
|||| driver who was on a cellphone and speeding.
||||
|||| I always thought that such an accident would always be resulted in
|||| favor of the pedestrian, but strangely, the judge said the kid
|||| shouldn't have been riding in a parking lot. No evidence that he
|||| was tricking - just riding.
|||
||| <snip>
|||
|||| Apparently the Judge doesn't think speeding and breaking the law
|||| is worthy of a fine. In fact in every jurisdiction I've seen,
|||| going 15 miles over the limit is reckless driving.
||||
|||| Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second
|||| class' citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!
|||
||| Important point of information. Judge Judy is not really a court,
||| but a civil arbitration. She doesn't have the authority to levee
||| fines or impose jail sentences. She did everything she could,
||| except write a letter to a DA.
|||
||| Austin
||
|| Well she denied the kid money for 'pain and suffering', and said it
|| was b/c he had no right to ride in a parking lot, which I'd dispute.
||
|| Yeah, I know she's not a real court. My commentary was meant to be
|| also about societal attitudes that seem to favor automobile drives
|| and disfavor others, I guess.

In that case this all makes perfect sense....obviously you know that most
car drivers think the roads and parking lots are just for cars. Anyone else
on anything else ought not to be on the road....Talk about ignorance....

||
|| -B

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

One becomes used to it.

Then comes the angst.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Some of those TV judges actually seem to understand the law--Judge Judy is
not one of them. She seems to be most interested in forming personal
opinions about the litigants, and then screaming at them.

Badger_South wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I know she's not a real court. My commentary was meant to be also
about societal attitudes that seem to favor automobile drives and disfavor
others, I guess.

I understand the overall comment, but I've seen Judge Judy tear new ones for
people who let their dogs chase bikes.

She's not anti-bike, necessarily.

Austin

Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:32:27 -0700, <[email hidden]>,

(Tom Keats) said:

Quoted message said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

One becomes used to it.

Then comes the angst.

.. . .then the powder and then the fuse.
--
zk

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:13:27 -0400, Roger Zoul <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In that case this all makes perfect sense....obviously you know that most
car drivers think the roads and parking lots are just for cars. Anyone
else
on anything else ought not to be on the road....Talk about ignorance....

Quite correct.

Once behind the wheel, car drivers seem to suffer from amnesia regarding
how they got there in the first place...

....Perhaps they stand by the sliding doors of Wal-Mart, concentrate really
hard on the line 'Beam me up, Scottie!" and then, as if by magic, appear
in the seat of their cars?

Because, after all, parking lots are made for cars, are they not?

Quoted message said:

In that case this all makes perfect sense....obviously you know that most
car drivers think the roads and parking lots are just for cars. Anyone

else

Quoted message said:

on anything else ought not to be on the road....Talk about ignorance....

||
|| -B

the car, like the NG, or anywhere else one can hide without worrying about
being accoutable for one's actions is a place where people exercise their
alter egos. i cant believe how normally rational people become raging
lunatics when behind the wheel - but this behaviour is sanctioned and
condoned because the car is supreme in our society, we are hopelessly tied
to these infernal machines. now bow to the lords of oil -oh holy trinity
exxon mobil bp!

__o
\ <
( ) ( )
~~~~~~~~

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

One becomes used to it.

Then comes the angst.

My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic: In the
beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other became
afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful one, the
slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the master, because
only the slave knew and understood fear.

Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

-Luigi

--
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

Luigi de Guzman said:

My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic: In the
beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other became
afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful one, the
slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the master, because
only the slave knew and understood fear.

Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

you need to watch more television.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
|| Tom Keats wrote:
||
||| In article <[email hidden]>,
||| Badger_South <[email hidden]> writes:
|||
|||| Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second
|||| class' citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!
|||
||| One becomes used to it.
|||
||| Then comes the angst.
||
|| My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic:
|| In the beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other
|| became afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful
|| one, the slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the
|| master, because only the slave knew and understood fear.
||
|| Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

That's a good one...

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bfxWc.130361$sh.86564@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second

class'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

One becomes used to it.

Then comes the angst.

My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic: In

the

Quoted message said:

beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other became
afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful one, the
slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the master, because
only the slave knew and understood fear.

Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

-Luigi

--
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

camus wrote a great essay on this called "the rebel". ...but he doesnt talk
about bicycles at all.
-- a

"""""
x x

Quoted message said:

V

In article <bfxWc.130361$sh.86564@fed1read06>,

Luigi de Guzman said:

My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic: In the
beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other became
afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful one, the
slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the master, because
only the slave knew and understood fear.

Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

Better than DonQuijote1954, anyways, with his
lions and monkeys and dinosaurs.

I think I've seen some Twilight Zone episodes
written around that theme.

Good thing for the slave that the master didn't
just run him over with his car.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:55:31 GMT, "AustinMN" <[email hidden]>
|| wrote:
||
||| Badger_South wrote:
|||| Interesting case on 'Judge Judy' today in which a 15 y.o. child
|||| was riding a skateboard in a parking lot and was hit by a female
|||| driver who was on a cellphone and speeding.
||||
|||| I always thought that such an accident would always be resulted in
|||| favor of the pedestrian, but strangely, the judge said the kid
|||| shouldn't have been riding in a parking lot. No evidence that he
|||| was tricking - just riding.
|||
||| <snip>
|||
|||| Apparently the Judge doesn't think speeding and breaking the law
|||| is worthy of a fine. In fact in every jurisdiction I've seen,
|||| going 15 miles over the limit is reckless driving.
||||
|||| Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second
|||| class' citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!
|||
||| Important point of information. Judge Judy is not really a court,
||| but a civil arbitration. She doesn't have the authority to levee
||| fines or impose jail sentences. She did everything she could,
||| except write a letter to a DA.
|||
||| Austin
||
|| Well she denied the kid money for 'pain and suffering', and said it
|| was b/c he had no right to ride in a parking lot, which I'd dispute.
||
|| Yeah, I know she's not a real court. My commentary was meant to be
|| also about societal attitudes that seem to favor automobile drives
|| and disfavor others, I guess.

In that case this all makes perfect sense....obviously you know that most
car drivers think the roads and parking lots are just for cars. Anyone else
on anything else ought not to be on the road....Talk about ignorance....

But, on the point of the law, she's right.

Let's be clear here: in almost every jurisdiction on the planet,
bicycles are vehicles with road rights, except where explicitly barred.
Remember, critical mass, we are traffic, etc.

Also, in almost every jurisdiction on the planet, in-line skates and
skateboards are not vehicles with road rights, and the kid probably
isn't supposed to be skateboarding in a private parking lot, or at best,
is supposed to behave like a pedestrian.

There are plenty of complications here which this analysis isn't picking
up, but the most important distinction is the one I stated first: bikes
are vehicles in the eyes of the law ("think of them as little cars!"😉
but skateboards are not.

Finally, tort (civil) law is separate from questions of "criminal" (a
term I may be misusing here to describe violations of the traffic code
as well as the criminal code) law. Judge Judy only arbitrates the
former. The rules for what constitutes a tort, and under what
circumstances a person is liable or has a burden of care are not ones I
know much about, and rules tend to differ from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction (Canada and the US, for example, have some important
differences in this realm). Suffice it to say I would bet your outrage
is misplaced, and at best should be directed at civil law precedents.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Luigi de Guzman said:

My Dad was always fond of the whole Hegelian Master/Slave dialectic: In the
beginning there were two men: one became powerful, the other became
afraid. The powerful one became the master, and the fearful one, the
slave. Eventually, the slave was able to overthrow the master, because
only the slave knew and understood fear.

Dad tells the best bedtime stories.

Hmmm. This may explain a lot about you, Luigi! ;-)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Quoted message said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

-B

you tell it, B. A couple years ago I had to bike to work along a state
highway. Speed limit 45mph. No shoulder. So, being the safety minded guy I
am ... I ride in the middle of the right lane. Folks didn't take to kindly
to that, doing such things as calling 911. Judges didn't seem to even listen
to the laws relating, such as:

If a bicycle and a car cannot safely share a lane, the bicycle may take a
full lane.
Cars must give 3 feet of clearance to bikes.

So, figuring a width of about 3 feet for me and my bike, 3 feet of
clearance, and an average car width of around 7 feet, for a bike and car to
safely share the lane the lane must be AT LEAST 13 feet -- in this case the
lanes were 12 feet.

Got fined. Paid about 10% of the fine in spare change that I dumped out for
the judge to count. Moved out of state to avoid arrest.

"Automator" wrote: (clip) Got fined. Paid about 10% of the fine in spare
change that I dumped out for the judge to count. Moved out of state to avoid
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I knew a sculptor once who paid a traffic fine by making a check out of
concrete--weighed a couple of hundred pounds. The city officials were not
amused, but the press was there, and it made the papers, including
photographs. Due to the publicity, the officials were not able to show
their full displeasure, and he got away with it. Didn't even have to leave
town.

Badger_South <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Amazing how pedestrians, bikers, boarders are relegated to 'second class'
citizen when faced with the almighty automobile!

I don't agree that because a child on a skateboard is not classed as a
vehicle, that you can extrapolate from that to "cycles are second
class".

When driving a car, you inevitably make certain assumptions about what
you see as you drive and manouver.

One of those assumptions is about the rate at which an object may end
up trying to use the same piece of space that you are/intend to use.

We all do this every day. As we look around at various manouvering
points. If we see a person who is not in or on a vehicle, and is a
fair distance away, we make an automatic assumption that they are not
going to get near us very quickly.

If we see a person who is on or in a vehicle, we know we need to make
an assessment of that persons speed and intentions.

The problem with roller skates and skateboards is that the are not
"recognised" as vehicles, either legally, or by our brains as they
scan the vicinity, and as such are "removed from the equation" as we
assess a situation, if they are more than a certain distance away.

Of course, in the quoted case, the issue was complicated by the woman
clearly not paying attention, and lying about what happened. But I
could not fault the "judge" for attributing some proportion of the
blame to the skateboarder for using the device in an inappropriate
place.

In the coming years, I can see that there will be all kinds of
problems caused by the new generation of electric (and occasionally
petrol engined) scooters and skateboards that now seem to be appearing
ever more frequently.