Cants and elbows

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

and that's the key unknown. if the flange is appropriately canted and
the holes are perpendicular to the flange, the math clearly shows
"correction" to be unnecessary. if it still was done in spite of that,
this evidences builder habit.

Quoted message said:

I don't know for either spoke whether it was outbound or inbound, but I
think it was one of each as one of them also had more of a bend in it at
the crossing.

http://tinyurl.com/wl69x

The hub flanges are both canted, and the spoke holes are parallel to the
flanges, as if the flanges were drilled first and then formed into that
curved-inwards shape. So canting about as optimal as it gets I'd say.

they're drilled after, but it's easy enough to do offset like that.

Quoted message said:

In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that this is an aluminium
hub and stainless steel spokes, the spokes clearly have different bends
at the elbows presumably acquired during the build.

yes, but how?!

jim beam said:

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

and that's the key unknown. if the flange is appropriately canted and
the holes are perpendicular to the flange, the math clearly shows
"correction" to be unnecessary. if it still was done in spite of that,
this evidences builder habit.

The wheels are the ones that came with the bike, so it's quite likely
they were machine-built.

I had a few problems with spokes coming loose on both wheels not long
after buying the bike (about 6 years ago), and so tightened them up a
bit and trued the wheels. So I don't think they were built by Jobst.

Ben C said:

jim beam said:

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

and that's the key unknown. if the flange is appropriately canted and
the holes are perpendicular to the flange, the math clearly shows
"correction" to be unnecessary. if it still was done in spite of that,
this evidences builder habit.

The wheels are the ones that came with the bike, so it's quite likely
they were machine-built.

I had a few problems with spokes coming loose on both wheels not long
after buying the bike (about 6 years ago), and so tightened them up a
bit and trued the wheels. So I don't think they were built by Jobst.

lol!

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

I don't know for either spoke whether it was outbound or inbound, but I
think it was one of each as one of them also had more of a bend in it at
the crossing.

http://tinyurl.com/wl69x

The hub flanges are both canted, and the spoke holes are parallel to the
flanges, as if the flanges were drilled first and then formed into that
curved-inwards shape. So canting about as optimal as it gets I'd say.

In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that this is an aluminium
hub and stainless steel spokes, the spokes clearly have different bends
at the elbows presumably acquired during the build.

here are spokes from a wheel built specifically /not/ having the spoke
line "corrected".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/331112190/

jim beam said:

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

I don't know for either spoke whether it was outbound or inbound, but I
think it was one of each as one of them also had more of a bend in it at
the crossing.

http://tinyurl.com/wl69x

The hub flanges are both canted, and the spoke holes are parallel to the
flanges, as if the flanges were drilled first and then formed into that
curved-inwards shape. So canting about as optimal as it gets I'd say.

In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that this is an aluminium
hub and stainless steel spokes, the spokes clearly have different bends
at the elbows presumably acquired during the build.

here are spokes from a wheel built specifically /not/ having the spoke
line "corrected".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/331112190/

Dear Jim,

Whew!

I saw that you'd posted some spokes, couldn't figure out at a glance
what the thread was trying to say, and tried to measure the angles by
putting the picture into a paint program.

I need a better program, a different approach, or better eyes.
Probably some graphics program that would drag and drop one image onto
another would help.

As far as I can tell, the shaft of the lower spoke in the picture is
very slightly curved upward.

That is, a line drawn along the bottom each spoke will be almost
straight up to the elbow on the upper spoke, but curves a little
upward on the lower spoke:
_
/
-----------------------------'
_
/
-----------------************
curving up a tiny bit

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/331112190/

I can't resolve any differences at the elbows themselves.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Ben C said:

Picture of a Campag Veloce rear hub and two spokes from the same wheel,
which was ridden around for 14000km before cracks appeared in the rim.
One spoke is from the drive side and one from the non-drive side.

I didn't build this wheel myself and I don't know what kind of "spoke
line correction" may have been done.

I don't know for either spoke whether it was outbound or inbound, but I
think it was one of each as one of them also had more of a bend in it at
the crossing.

http://tinyurl.com/wl69x

The hub flanges are both canted, and the spoke holes are parallel to the
flanges, as if the flanges were drilled first and then formed into that
curved-inwards shape. So canting about as optimal as it gets I'd say.

In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that this is an aluminium
hub and stainless steel spokes, the spokes clearly have different bends
at the elbows presumably acquired during the build.

here are spokes from a wheel built specifically /not/ having the spoke
line "corrected".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/331112190/

Dear Jim,

Whew!

I saw that you'd posted some spokes, couldn't figure out at a glance
what the thread was trying to say, and tried to measure the angles by
putting the picture into a paint program.

I need a better program, a different approach, or better eyes.
Probably some graphics program that would drag and drop one image onto
another would help.

As far as I can tell, the shaft of the lower spoke in the picture is
very slightly curved upward.

That is, a line drawn along the bottom each spoke will be almost
straight up to the elbow on the upper spoke, but curves a little
upward on the lower spoke:
_
/
-----------------------------'
_
/
-----------------************
curving up a tiny bit

that's true - it's about where the spoke was leaning against the flange.
but that's not what i was aiming to illustrate!

Quoted message said:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/331112190/

I can't resolve any differences at the elbows themselves.

nor can i - /that's/ what i think is important! i had to build this
wheel very carefully to /not/ bend anything on lacing. i gave the wheel
the full mavic method treatment though - i wanted to ensure the spokes
were fully bedded, and this is the result.