Cantilever brake headaches...

Dave said:

I have a cross bike with a pair of older DA 8-speed levers and early
90's XT low profile cantilevers, and have been tearing my hair out
trying to get the brakes set up properly.

I am trying to get the front brake to the point where I can get the
back wheel to unload with moderate hand force without squealing. With
the straddle set low, and the pads extended all the way out on their
posts, I can get adequate braking leverage. But despite changing to
salmon pads and putting teflon tape on the fixing bolts, I get loud and
annoying squeal even with light presure on the brakes. I rode the bike
this way for several weeks hoping the squeal would go away. It didn't,
and now there are fretting marks on the posts and the surfaces of the
brake arms where the fixing bolts attach.

If I move the pads in a few millimeters so they aren't extended as far
from the arms, the squealing disappears but so does my leverage. I
can't get the back wheel to lift even if I pull the lever as hard as I
can.

I'm surprised that this is such a hassle, given that others have posted
about getting good performance with low profile cantilevers and road
levers.

Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Salmon pads make squeal more likely because of their high coefficient of
friction.

Try a ride in the rain before you blame the geometry. Often any noise
disappears once a bit of gritty water has bedded the pads in.

Dave said:

I have a cross bike with a pair of older DA 8-speed levers and early
90's XT low profile cantilevers, and have been tearing my hair out
trying to get the brakes set up properly.

I am trying to get the front brake to the point where I can get the
back wheel to unload with moderate hand force without squealing. With
the straddle set low, and the pads extended all the way out on their
posts, I can get adequate braking leverage. But despite changing to
salmon pads and putting teflon tape on the fixing bolts, I get loud and
annoying squeal even with light presure on the brakes. I rode the bike
this way for several weeks hoping the squeal would go away. It didn't,
and now there are fretting marks on the posts and the surfaces of the
brake arms where the fixing bolts attach.

If I move the pads in a few millimeters so they aren't extended as far
from the arms, the squealing disappears but so does my leverage. I
can't get the back wheel to lift even if I pull the lever as hard as I
can.

I'm surprised that this is such a hassle, given that others have posted
about getting good performance with low profile cantilevers and road
levers.

Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Salmon colored Kool Stop pads squeal. I had some 1991 Deore DX low
profile cantilever brakes operated with normal RSX brake only levers.
Those cantilever brakes always seemed hard to adjust and stay adjusted.
So I replaced them with some old Dia Compe non low profile cantilever
brakes. They stay adjusted without constant fiddling.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Salmon pads make squeal more likely because of their high coefficient of
friction.

Try a ride in the rain before you blame the geometry. Often any noise
disappears once a bit of gritty water has bedded the pads in.

I find that Kool Stops like a shi'iteload of toe-in to avoid attracting
neighborhood cats.

Dave said:

I'm surprised that this is such a hassle, given that others have posted
about getting good performance with low profile cantilevers and road
levers.

Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Sheldon Brown has a great page about setting up cantilevers to work
with almost any brake lever,
Phil Brown

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

I have a cross bike with a pair of older DA 8-speed levers

and early

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

90's XT low profile cantilevers, and have been tearing my

hair out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trying to get the brakes set up properly.

I am trying to get the front brake to the point where I can

get the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back wheel to unload with moderate hand force without

squealing. With

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the straddle set low, and the pads extended all the way out

on their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

posts, I can get adequate braking leverage. But despite

changing to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

salmon pads and putting teflon tape on the fixing bolts, I

get loud and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

annoying squeal even with light presure on the brakes. I

rode the bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this way for several weeks hoping the squeal would go away.

It didn't,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and now there are fretting marks on the posts and the

surfaces of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brake arms where the fixing bolts attach.

If I move the pads in a few millimeters so they aren't

extended as far

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the arms, the squealing disappears but so does my

leverage. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can't get the back wheel to lift even if I pull the lever as

hard as I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can.

I'm surprised that this is such a hassle, given that others

have posted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about getting good performance with low profile cantilevers

and road

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

levers.

Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Salmon colored Kool Stop pads squeal. I had some 1991 Deore DX

low

Quoted message said:

profile cantilever brakes operated with normal RSX brake only

levers.

Quoted message said:

Those cantilever brakes always seemed hard to adjust and stay

adjusted.

Quoted message said:

So I replaced them with some old Dia Compe non low profile

cantilever

Quoted message said:

brakes. They stay adjusted without constant fiddling.

They also do not work well with STI, no matter how well adjusted.
I have been fiddling with a pair for years (including over-sized
stradle). I am going to replace them with Paul Neo Retros, at
least in the front. -- Jay Beattie.

Dave said:

I have a cross bike with a pair of older DA 8-speed levers and early
90's XT low profile cantilevers, and have been tearing my hair out
trying to get the brakes set up properly.<snip>
Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Some good advice from others.. I just did an experiment on my own
'cross bike. I had suffered from some brake squeal using various
cantis, pads and forks - not horrible, but annoying enough to want to
do something about it.

What I did was to install a set of (cheap!) Tektro 926AL Mini-V brakes
(obstensibly designed for BMX bikes). Even with the not-too-exotic
pads, they work better than any of the cantis, and don't squeal a bit.
The mechanical advantage seems to be on par with the low-profile
cantis, and the setup is a breeze. I believe that the real
improvement came from eliminating the cable hanger, which was probably
flexing under hard braking. I'm running 35mm tires, and have
clearance to spare, too.

I will toss on a set of upgraded Kool-Stop pads once the Tektro units
wear down or start to harden - and will probably get even better
performance.

Certainly one of the better el cheapo mods I've made on my own bike
lately.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

do these tektro brakes require a cable travel adjuster with STI levers
as do other v-brakes? Thanks.

cliff

cliff said:

do these tektro brakes require a cable travel adjuster with STI levers
as do other v-brakes? Thanks.

Nope. They're much shorter than a "normal" V-brake, so they don't
require as much cable pull. Using a Campy Ergo brake lever, the front
brake works well - good modulation, and doesn't require a lot of
force.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Dave said:

I have a cross bike with a pair of older DA 8-speed levers and early
90's XT low profile cantilevers, and have been tearing my hair out
trying to get the brakes set up properly.<snip>
Any tips? Should I give up and try another brand/model?

Some good advice from others.. I just did an experiment on my own
'cross bike. I had suffered from some brake squeal using various
cantis, pads and forks - not horrible, but annoying enough to want to
do something about it.

What I did was to install a set of (cheap!) Tektro 926AL Mini-V brakes
(obstensibly designed for BMX bikes). Even with the not-too-exotic
pads, they work better than any of the cantis, and don't squeal a bit.
The mechanical advantage seems to be on par with the low-profile
cantis, and the setup is a breeze. I believe that the real
improvement came from eliminating the cable hanger, which was probably
flexing under hard braking. I'm running 35mm tires, and have
clearance to spare, too.

I will toss on a set of upgraded Kool-Stop pads once the Tektro units
wear down or start to harden - and will probably get even better
performance.

Certainly one of the better el cheapo mods I've made on my own bike
lately.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Hey that sounds like a promising solution. Do you think it'd be
possible to run those brakes with 42mm tires?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark Hickey said:

I will toss on a set of upgraded Kool-Stop pads once the Tektro units
wear down or start to harden - and will probably get even better
performance.

_ I would do that sooner rather than later based on my own
experience with Tektro road brakes, the pads chewed up a rim
to the point of needing replacement before they wore out.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Booker C. Bense said:

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If you signed a speeding ticket like that, they'd give you a field sobriety
test.

:-D

Bill "time for Version 2.6./3/?" S.

Dave said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I did was to install a set of (cheap!) Tektro 926AL Mini-V brakes
(obstensibly designed for BMX bikes). Even with the not-too-exotic
pads, they work better than any of the cantis, and don't squeal a bit.
The mechanical advantage seems to be on par with the low-profile
cantis, and the setup is a breeze. I believe that the real
improvement came from eliminating the cable hanger, which was probably
flexing under hard braking. I'm running 35mm tires, and have
clearance to spare, too.

I will toss on a set of upgraded Kool-Stop pads once the Tektro units
wear down or start to harden - and will probably get even better
performance.

Certainly one of the better el cheapo mods I've made on my own bike
lately.

Quoted message said:

Hey that sounds like a promising solution. Do you think it'd be
possible to run those brakes with 42mm tires?

It depends on the height of the brake bosses, but it's kinda doubtful.
I'm running 35mm Panaracer T-Servs on my 'cross bike, and they measure
36-37mm (imagine that - a tire that's BIGGER than the spec!). There
appears to be about 4mm of clearance to the little "lip" on the quick
release mechanism.

So... since most tires tend to be smaller than the spec, it's possible
- depending on the brake bosses on your fork/frame - that you could
run a particular set of 42mm tires. Or not...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Dave said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I did was to install a set of (cheap!) Tektro 926AL Mini-V brakes
(obstensibly designed for BMX bikes). Even with the not-too-exotic
pads, they work better than any of the cantis, and don't squeal a bit.
The mechanical advantage seems to be on par with the low-profile
cantis, and the setup is a breeze... I'm running 35mm tires, and have
clearance to spare, too.

I will toss on a set of upgraded Kool-Stop pads once the Tektro units
wear down or start to harden - and will probably get even better
performance.

Certainly one of the better el cheapo mods I've made on my own bike
lately.

Quoted message said:

Hey that sounds like a promising solution. Do you think it'd be
possible to run those brakes with 42mm tires?

It depends on the height of the brake bosses, but it's kinda doubtful.
I'm running 35mm Panaracer T-Servs on my 'cross bike, and they measure
36-37mm (imagine that - a tire that's BIGGER than the spec!). There
appears to be about 4mm of clearance to the little "lip" on the quick
release mechanism.

Mark - Are you using standard road levers, then?

Also said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that the real
improvement came from eliminating the cable hanger, which was probably
flexing under hard braking.

It's also good to check how straight your cables are.

I've found most people set up their brakes leaving bends in the cables,
especially the cantilever straddle cables. For example, contrast the
bottom picture with the top picture in
http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html. The bends in the
bottom straddle cable are slight, but they still need to be
straightened before any braking force is applied. Often the bend is
more pronounced, leading to more wasted motion.

And with cantilevers, straightening that bend means the yoke angle (top
picture) is larger than necessary at the time the shoes contact the
rim. That reduces your mechanical advantage a bit.

I use pliers to bend straddle cables so they run in a straight line, as
in the top sketch. Likewise, I make sure the main cable is straight.
Then, in the usual compromise between mechanical advantage and travel,
I'm starting from the best position I can.

It occurs to me that a flexing cable hanger has sort of the same
effect. A good rigid one would indeed help.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hey that sounds like a promising solution. Do you think it'd be
possible to run those brakes with 42mm tires?

It depends on the height of the brake bosses, but it's kinda doubtful.
I'm running 35mm Panaracer T-Servs on my 'cross bike, and they measure
36-37mm (imagine that - a tire that's BIGGER than the spec!). There
appears to be about 4mm of clearance to the little "lip" on the quick
release mechanism.

Mark - Are you using standard road levers, then?

Yes I am - Campy road levers. They are a good match for the Tektro
mini-Vs.

Quoted message said:

Also said:

Quoted message said:

> I believe that the real
> improvement came from eliminating the cable hanger, which was probably
> flexing under hard braking.

It's also good to check how straight your cables are.

True...

Quoted message said:

I've found most people set up their brakes leaving bends in the cables,
especially the cantilever straddle cables. For example, contrast the
bottom picture with the top picture in
http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html. The bends in the
bottom straddle cable are slight, but they still need to be
straightened before any braking force is applied. Often the bend is
more pronounced, leading to more wasted motion.

I found that replacing the straddle cables on my old tandem with solid
Odyssey straddles made more difference than anything else I did.

Quoted message said:

And with cantilevers, straightening that bend means the yoke angle (top
picture) is larger than necessary at the time the shoes contact the
rim. That reduces your mechanical advantage a bit.

I use pliers to bend straddle cables so they run in a straight line, as
in the top sketch. Likewise, I make sure the main cable is straight.
Then, in the usual compromise between mechanical advantage and travel,
I'm starting from the best position I can.

I set mine up the same way. On the 'cross bike in question, my
braking "power" was fine - it was the squeal that led me to try
something else.

Quoted message said:

It occurs to me that a flexing cable hanger has sort of the same
effect. A good rigid one would indeed help.

I think this was one of the main problems with the squeal. But mainly
I just wanted to try a pair of the mini-V's...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame