Cant keep 'em TRUE-wheel question.

I get >20k miles easily on Huffy MTB wheels without the slightest out-of-true
26x2 size

1-800-USA-BIKE, about $35 unless they've raised the price to try to make it
a profit center, and give it a try.

That's been my consistent experience with the Huffy MTB wheels, not just a
one-off experience on one of them. I regularly carry 40 pounds of groceries
on the back carrier, too.

They're probably all threaded for freewheels, unless something's changed.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:55:11 -0400, "RkFast" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a $800
<set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for, road or
<MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made, I ALWAYS had to
<have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about 20 miles. Im only 140
<LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on parts. Most times after having
<the wheel "tuned up" with the minor truing, they stay solid for a long time.
<
<So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
<trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
<luck on the planet?

Sometimes it's cheaper to buy a wheelset than individual parts.... and when they
arrive, I add a little tension, some times a lot.

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:55:11 -0400, "RkFast" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a $800
set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for, road or
MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made, I ALWAYS had to
have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about 20 miles. Im only 140
LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on parts. Most times after having
the wheel "tuned up" with the minor truing, they stay solid for a long time.

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

The latter.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

RkFast said:

Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a $800
set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for, road or
MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made, I ALWAYS had to
have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about 20 miles. Im only 140
LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on parts. Most times after having
the wheel "tuned up" with the minor truing, they stay solid for a long time.

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

Not sure but a couple of points.
-A wheel is absolutely perfectly true, round, dished, etc. only when
built well,
using new components and after the good wheelbuilder is done with
it(assuming the builder has done a proper job including stress
relieving, taking the twist outta the spokes, etc.).
-When ridden, even by somebody that's a buck 40, the wheel is stressed
to the point that it will never be as perfect as it was in the truing
stand. It will be true and round, etc, but it is a pretty light piece
of equipment and as long as rims are in the 400-600 gr range, it will
be 'deformed' a wee bit and not be as perfect as when new and in the
stand. If the rim, spokes were of the gauge and weight as say a
motorcycle wheel, that would probably be perfect but even spoked wheels
on a motorcycle need to be trued.
-BUT new wheels shouldn't 'break in', don't need a 'tuneup' after
initial build, nothing 'stretches' or 'seats in'.

RkFast said:

Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a $800
set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for, road or
MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made, I ALWAYS had to
have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about 20 miles. Im only 140
LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on parts. Most times after having
the wheel "tuned up" with the minor truing, they stay solid for a long time.

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

do you keep buying them from the same store? my bet is that your local
wheel "expert" monkeys with them as soon as he gets them and leaves
tension uneven. i weigh 205 right now and am riding a 28 spoke mavic
cosmos rear on my 30 mile per day commuter. it's as true today as it
was out of the box, so there /has/ to be something happening between the
box the wheels came in and your bike.

RkFast said:

Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a
$800 set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for,
road or MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made,
I ALWAYS had to have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about
20 miles. Im only 140 LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on
parts. Most times after having the wheel "tuned up" with the minor
truing, they stay solid for a long time.

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once
over in a trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I
just have the worst luck on the planet?

They need to be stress relieved and touched up *before* you ride on them. Once
I started doing that, I've had almost no problems. You can do this (or have it
done) with prebuilt wheels just as you can when starting from scratch. The $30
or so most wheelbuilders would charge for this service is well worth it.

Matt O.

RkFast said:

Seems no matter that level of wheel I buy, a $200 set of basics or a $800
set of top of the line stuff, for whichever bike I buy them for, road or
MTB, pre-built sets like Mavics or Bontis or even hand made, I ALWAYS had to
have them, especially the rear, re-trued after about 20 miles. Im only 140
LBS and what I think....not terribly hard on parts. Most times after having
the wheel "tuned up" with the minor truing, they stay solid for a long time.

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

Dear R.,

According to Jobst Brandt's book, "The Bicycle Wheel," a
wheel should "gradually deteriorate" "with age" rather than
within a few miles.

"The rider's weight, amplified by bumps in the road, is the
principal dynamic load supported by the wheel. Other radial,
lateral and torsional dynamic loads are caused by pedaling,
braking, and riding while standing. These combined loads
cause all wheels to deteriorate gradually as they bend and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
twist elastically."

p. 16, "The Bicycle Wheel," 3rd edition

"The weight of a cyclist riding straight ahead on a flat
smooth road provides sufficient radial load to cause a wheel
to deteriorate with age."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

p. 17, "The Bicycle Wheel," 3rd edition

"When the wheel is stress-relieved and has had final truing,
it is finished and ready to use."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[No mention after this of any test-ride, checking, or
re-truing after a few miles.]

p. 115, "The Bicycle Wheel," 3rd edition

I expect that the explanation for your problem will be that
the wheels that you're buying are not well-built.

Carl Fogel

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:55:11 -0400, "RkFast" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

IMHO, if the wheels are properly built, they are boring and need
little to no attention unless they are traumatized.

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:55:11 -0400, "RkFast" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

IMHO, if the wheels are properly built, they are boring and need
little to no attention unless they are traumatized.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
net?

Quoted message said:

They need to be stress relieved and touched up *before* you ride on them.

Once

Quoted message said:

I started doing that, I've had almost no problems. You can do this (or have

it

Quoted message said:

done) with prebuilt wheels just as you can when starting from scratch. The

$30

Quoted message said:

or so most wheelbuilders would charge for this service is well worth it.

If this is the case, why bother with pre-built wheels? Just get custom wheels
built. You save money and the hassle of having new wheels fixed.
--------------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
net?

Quoted message said:

They need to be stress relieved and touched up *before* you ride on them.

Once

Quoted message said:

I started doing that, I've had almost no problems. You can do this (or have

it

Quoted message said:

done) with prebuilt wheels just as you can when starting from scratch. The

$30

Quoted message said:

or so most wheelbuilders would charge for this service is well worth it.

If this is the case, why bother with pre-built wheels? Just get custom wheels
built. You save money and the hassle of having new wheels fixed.
--------------
Alex

RkFast said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

This is a symptom of a poorly-built wheel, in particular, one that has not
been stress-relieved. Should not happen on any wheel, definitely will
with a cheap machine-built wheel. It also does on many handbuilt wheels,
since many of them are built by someone who doesn't really know how.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You
_`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it!
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

RkFast said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the worst
luck on the planet?

This is a symptom of a poorly-built wheel, in particular, one that has not
been stress-relieved. Should not happen on any wheel, definitely will
with a cheap machine-built wheel.

but my mavic cosmos is "machine built". it definitely /has not/
happened to me.

Quoted message said:

It also does on many handbuilt wheels,
since many of them are built by someone who doesn't really know how.

Alex Rodriguez said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...
net?

Quoted message said:

They need to be stress relieved and touched up *before* you ride on
them. Once I started doing that, I've had almost no problems. You
can do this (or have it done) with prebuilt wheels just as you can
when starting from scratch. The $30 or so most wheelbuilders would
charge for this service is well worth it.

If this is the case, why bother with pre-built wheels? Just get
custom wheels built. You save money and the hassle of having new
wheels fixed. --------------

Prebuilts are cheaper, often cheaper than just the parts. For example, Ultegra
/ OpenPro / ButtedDT for $150-180 plus $30 extra labor, vs. $300 or so from a
good wheelbuilder.

Matt O.

jim beam said:

David L. Johnson said:

RkFast said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once
over in a trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I
just have the worst luck on the planet?

There is nothing wrong with doing this, in my opinion its not always
easy to evenly stress relieve a wheel everywhere before you ride upon
the wheel, as actual road stresses are the best of all tests of a
wheel. Moreover, it's my belief that you can "over-relieve" a wheel,
i.e. put the spokes through more torture than necessary if you try to
do everything on the truing stand.

When I build or retrue wheels (which isn't often) I always stress
relieve them, then take them for a spin around the block, then recheck
the trueness before I pronounce them "finished."

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over
in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the
worst
luck on the planet?

This is a symptom of a poorly-built wheel, in particular, one that has not
been stress-relieved. Should not happen on any wheel, definitely will
with a cheap machine-built wheel. It also does on many handbuilt wheels,
since many of them are built by someone who doesn't really know how.

Just because a wheel is "machine built" doesn't mean it has to be low
quality. It depends upon how the machine is set up, and what human
intervention occurs afterward. Better machine-built wheels are
stress-relieved and quite possibly might be more consistent than a
moderate-quality hand-built wheel.

At some point one needs to define what "machine built" means though. If the
final process involves an individual checking it out and doing the final
truing, is that really machine-built, machine-assisted or what? At what
point in the process of building a wheel is something magical imparted by a
human?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike....This is a Bonti Race X Lite. You've got lots of experience with
these. What's the story?

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over
in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them? Or do I just have the
worst
luck on the planet?

This is a symptom of a poorly-built wheel, in particular, one that has
not
been stress-relieved. Should not happen on any wheel, definitely will
with a cheap machine-built wheel. It also does on many handbuilt wheels,
since many of them are built by someone who doesn't really know how.

Just because a wheel is "machine built" doesn't mean it has to be low
quality. It depends upon how the machine is set up, and what human
intervention occurs afterward. Better machine-built wheels are
stress-relieved and quite possibly might be more consistent than a
moderate-quality hand-built wheel.

At some point one needs to define what "machine built" means though. If
the final process involves an individual checking it out and doing the
final truing, is that really machine-built, machine-assisted or what? At
what point in the process of building a wheel is something magical
imparted by a human?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

-lost attribution-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the question is....do new wheels sometimes need an initial once over
in a
trueing stand after you log a few miles on them?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a symptom of a poorly-built wheel, in particular, one that has not
been stress-relieved. Should not happen on any wheel, definitely will
with a cheap machine-built wheel. It also does on many handbuilt wheels,
since many of them are built by someone who doesn't really know how.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Just because a wheel is "machine built" doesn't mean it has to be low
quality. It depends upon how the machine is set up, and what human
intervention occurs afterward. Better machine-built wheels are
stress-relieved and quite possibly might be more consistent than a
moderate-quality hand-built wheel.

At some point one needs to define what "machine built" means though. If the
final process involves an individual checking it out and doing the final
truing, is that really machine-built, machine-assisted or what? At what
point in the process of building a wheel is something magical imparted by a
human?

I think you make a good point, Mike. As Jobst has also
noted from time to time there is no inherent reason for hand
built wheels to be good ( we've all seen lousy handbuilts!)
and there's no inherent reason for machine built wheels to
be [censored].

There are reasons, though.

Although we seldom see properly stress relieved, adequately
tensioned, acceptably round and laterally straight wheels
from robotic machinery, that's only because few managers in
the field are convinced that they will cover their
increased costs and yet make more money than if they set all
the variables to the lowest possible level that can get a
wheel to last long enough to get out the shop door.

My house, and we are not alone, is able to build wheels with
a $25 service charge for building and still sell them in a
world where others sell wheels for the price of hubs and
rims alone.

I conclude that at least some consumers _do_ know there is a
difference and are willing, at least in some numbers, to pay
for reliability. Or at least buy on faith.

I certainly hope the big automated houses remain afraid to
try to make a better product. As it is now, they are my best
advertisement.

I am reminded of many conversations about frames where,
truly, robotic processes are usually _more_ reliable,
certainly more uniform, than handmade. Consumers often
'explain' to me that 'robot frames are no good' and then
mistakenly refer to a (sloppy) hand built example.

So, yes, I'm with Mike. "Hand" or "robot" is not the
significant variable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:32:32 -0500, A Muzi
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Although we seldom see properly stress relieved, adequately
tensioned, acceptably round and laterally straight wheels
from robotic machinery . . .

[snip]

Dear Andrew,

A knee-jerk reaction to what you wrote leads me to an
apology and a question.

At first, I was going say no offense, but how can anyone
look at a wheel and "see" if it's been properly stress
relieved without a handy neutron diffraction machine?

But a fairer reading of your post would be that you think
that few robot-built wheels come to your shop with stress
relief because few machines incorporate that feature.

Sorry for almost leaping to a quarrelsome conclusion.

But the point is still worth making. Wheel roundness,
lateral trueness, and even spoke tension are easily
measured, with a truing stand and a tensiometer.

But not stress relief. One reason for all the fuss is that
(at least according to many of proponents of stress relief
as opposed to bedding-in) no one handed a wheel can tell
whether the stresses have been relieved.

This doesn't mean that stress relief is bunk. It just
emphasizes why it's such an interesting topic.

Of course, I'm sorry again if I'm leaping to another
mistaken conclusion and you meant that you can see a
difference.

Carl Fogel