Cannot improve sprint

[YMCA]

Didn't Boardman once say he never once exceeded 1000 watts?

Believe it.

 

[fergie]

That has been suggested and that he couldn't leg press 40kg.

 

[Piotr]

That has been suggested and that he couldn't leg press 40kg.

So who tied his shoes for him?

 

[fergie]

With all the funding the BCF have I suspect they had a dedicated staff member to take care of that.

 

[john979]

Nice !

Ultimately though, it comes down to your state of mind( right before, and during the ride), whether you feel up to it or not(physically drained, or physically feeling good) does play some role in things , but the mind/brain is a powerful tool- a force to be rekon with for sure.

I disagree, as Dr. Coggan likes you say, you can only do what you can do and if your 5 second max sprint is 1000 watts, no state of mind is going to change that to 1500 watts...

In addition, one's physiology is more determanistic than one's training. If this were not the case, then Boardman would be a TdF Champion, for example.

 

[velomanct]

But a proper, motivated, positive mindset will get that 1000w rider a heck of a lot higher through training than a limiting mindset of "oh I'll never be a good sprinter" BULLSHEET.


I'm currently about 50 watts away from something I would of crapped myself if someone told me I'd do, 5 years ago. No exageration.

How's it possible?

WILL.

I don't care that I'm a skinny ectomorph who can't jump for sheet.(18") I REFUSE to allow myself from being categorized into something I don't like.

You got to love doing it though. Sprinting, that is.

 

[Steve_B]

I don't care that I'm a skinny ectomorph.

On the previous page, you said you were 85 kg, which generally in the bike racing world is not skinny but it depends upon height. So how tall are you?

 

[john979]

But a proper, motivated, positive mindset will get that 1000w rider a heck of a lot higher through training than a limiting mindset of "oh I'll never be a good sprinter" BULLSHEET.


I'm currently about 50 watts away from something I would of crapped myself if someone told me I'd do, 5 years ago. No exageration.

How's it possible?

WILL.

I don't care that I'm a skinny ectomorph who can't jump for sheet.(18") I REFUSE to allow myself from being categorized into something I don't like.

You got to love doing it though. Sprinting, that is.

The simple fact is that some people improve with training, some do not, no matter how hard or smart the training. You should research the subject of exercise responders and non-responders.

For example, no matter how hard I try to improve my sprint and 30 second power, I see little meaningful improvement in my 5 second and 30 second power. I train both hard and smartly.

However, I have seen meaningful improvement in my aerobic power and FTP, at least before I became sick. This is expected given my predominant Type I fiber physiology.

Lastly, I don't mind, as slow-twitchers live longer!

 

[velomanct]

On the previous page, you said you were 85 kg, which generally in the bike racing world is not skinny but it depends upon height. So how tall are you?

6'2"

I'm definitely skinny according to about 98% of people that know me.

Doing upper body work at the gym is almost embarrassing. I do not fit in.

Last girl I dated made fun of my skinny calf muscles, her's were the same size (she was a runner).

 

[velomanct]

The simple fact is that some people improve with training, some do not, no matter how hard or smart the training. You should research the subject of exercise responders and non-responders.

For example, no matter how hard I try to improve my sprint and 30 second power, I see little meaningful improvement in my 5 second and 30 second power. I train both hard and smartly.

However, I have seen meaningful improvement in my aerobic power and FTP, at least before I became sick. This is expected given my predominant Type I fiber physiology.

Lastly, I don't mind, as slow-twitchers live longer!

Well, you should be doing relatively well in the road cycling world then! Most that endurance crowd yearns to be as slow-twitch as possible.

 

[john979]

Well, you should be doing relatively well in the road cycling world then! Most that endurance crowd yearns to be as slow-twitch as possible.

I am not the one complaining.

 

[Piotr]

FWIW, just today I did the first dedicated sprint session in a while and IIRC only the second this season. About half way through the session I remembered that I needed to concentrate on turning the cranks rather than simply mashing down. Much like what someone mentioned in a different thread (?) about concentrating on reaching a certain cadence. Following that "revelation" I set a new 5 sec. PB. Sprinting is when it's OK to use as many muscles as possible, pushing, pulling, screaming... the works.

 

[Steve_B]

screaming

I do mine near a park. Lots of people come there to walk their dogs. When you let out a big yell, it tends to attract way too much attention. Though it is cathartic.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

I disagree, as Dr. Coggan likes you say, you can only do what you can do and if your 5 second max sprint is 1000 watts, no state of mind is going to change that to 1500 watts...

In addition, one's physiology is more determanistic than one's training. If this were not the case, then Boardman would be a TdF Champion, for example.

Yes there are genetic/physiological differences between people, some miniscule (eye color)... and some more major differences (developmental disabled- mental and/or physical , albino, dwarfism, etc. etc.... you get the idea). From what I've heard, the difference between a pro rider and a Cat. 2 rider can be insignificantly not much- if anything beyond being measured at all/ if any physiological net results (VO2 max, height/weight, watt output- duration of time, etc. ... etc.). The differnece lies in ... well, more so then anything experience .... and mental focus/accuity ( mind over matter ... and/or E= (MC)2 )

 

[john979]

Yes there are genetic/physiological differences between people, some miniscule (eye color)... and some more major differences (developmental disabled- mental and/or physical , albino, dwarfism, etc. etc.... you get the idea). From what I've heard, the difference between a pro rider and a Cat. 2 rider can be insignificantly not much- if anything beyond being measured at all/ if any physiological net results (VO2 max, height/weight, watt output- duration of time, etc. ... etc.). The differnece lies in ... well, more so then anything experience .... and mental focus/accuity ( mind over matter ... and/or E= (MC)2 )

As performance levels increase, the physiological traits of athletes become more homogenous for each specialty, which is expected. For example, all professional Grand Tour contenders possess very similar muscle morphologies, as do world class marathon runners and tracker sprinters. Interestingly, it has only been since the advent of doping the we saw Grand Tour Champions outside what in the past had been a very narrow range of weight and BMI (approximate 70 +/- 3 kg).

However, there is a greater difference between Cat 2 (and Cat 1) cyclists vs. professionals than you are implying, as professional cyclists (save for pure sprinters) have a combination of both high VO2 max and high efficiency, although once an "entry level" VO2 Max is reached (75-80 ml/kg/min), efficiency is more important than VO2 max. There are very few Cat 1 and Cat 2 cyclists with such a VO2 max -- all well documented and it is not due to focus and drive.

PS -- Yesterday evening I saw a baseball game from bleacher seats as I was amazed (no pun intended) on the remarkable consistency in build of all the players -- broad shoulders, narrow waste, wide hips, no classic "V" athletic builds among them.

 

[doctorSpoc]

A few years ago I was a pretty good sprinter (or at least much better than now), but since then I've had two pretty big crashes (both involving cars and quite a few broken bones). I have completely lost my ability to sprint and cannot seem to get it back. Doctors believe that there are no injuries from the crashes that could be causing this. I've decided to change my training to only work on sprints, but I'm seeing almost no change whatsoever. The last three weeks I've been doing a training race on Thursday (1:00 - 1:10 long with 10 sprints), 20 20-second sprints on Saturday and 10 1-minute L6 intervals on Sunday. The other days are all 1 hour recovery rides. So far my 5-second power has "improved" from 975 to 980 watts. My 1-minute power has remained the same. I haven't done a maximum 1-min test since it's tough to put in 9 more after that, but my average power outputs for the 10 1:00 efforts are pretty much unchanged after the three weeks. One thing I'll say - recovery takes a lot longer with these efforts than any L4 or L5 training I've done! I'm going to start taking Tuesdays completely off the bike instead of a recovery ride since my legs are usually still quite sore then. Is it possible that 4 recovery days a week are still not enough? I know that weight training is generally not seen as necessary for cyclists, but is that maybe the direction I should go? I'm hoping that there's a glaringly obvious problem with my training that I am just not seeing!

Dave

if you are finding L7 workout hard to recover from you KNOW you are doing something wrong... an L7 workout should not feel particularly difficult to recover from... the L6, yes you should feel some muscle soreness but since the workout duration is short you should be able to recover from them pretty easily as well... L5 are killer though...

your sprints are too long and too many... a sprint workout looks like this...

1hr - 1.5hrs... 15-20min tempo to warmup... max 8 sprints of max efforts for 15 sec max (flying starts)... 10 sec max standing starts... then 5min of full recovery between.. if you need more to recover take more... you should be fully recovered before you do another sprint... improving your sprint is a lot about form and muscle memory... if you are doing your sprint workout not fully recovered you are likely ingraining bad form and as a result low power... this means a sprint workout should come after a recovery day and full recovery between sprints... after your sprint do about 20min cool down... ~10min tempo followed by 10min AR.. basically ride home fairly easy...

short (5-10sec), uphill, standing start sprints, over geared overemphasize the pedalling action and are good to warmup... keep pedalling 'til you get on top of the gear.... usually do these first to warm up and get you thinking about what you will do later

longer (10-15sec), flying starts are good for recreating real world sprints, practice getting leg speed up etc... start at the top of a small hill roll down the hill/pedal lightly to get up to ~40km/hr... at the bottom of the hill sprint all out... standing then as you get on top of the gear sit and try to maintain your speed as much as possible... these are the sprints that will make you fast in real world situations (difference between high 5sec power and sprinting ability).. again much of this is about ingraining the technique

keep in mind that this is only part of the puzzle... you need to get to the end of the race in order to sprint... you need to get into position... only then will your sprinting ability be significant... by reducing your other training you could be severely impairing your sprinting ability (i.e. NOT you 5sec power number)... contrary to popular belief sprinting in not all about NMP...

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

good sprinting overview/ perspective.. I'll try it.

Also.. don't forget the importance that mitochondrial DNA has, on a persons ability to convert food into usable energy (production of ATP and regulation of cellular metabolism). This cannot be bought, you got what you got. However, isn't there some drugs that can enhance(short term) the mitochon. effect ? I forget its name.

 

[john979]

if you are finding L7 workout hard to recover from you KNOW you are doing something wrong... an L7 workout should not feel particularly difficult to recover from... the L6, yes you should feel some muscle soreness but since the workout duration is short you should be able to recover from them pretty easily as well... L5 are killer though...

your sprints are too long and too many... a sprint workout looks like this...

1hr - 1.5hrs... 15-20min tempo to warmup... max 8 sprints of max efforts for 15 sec max (flying starts)... 10 sec max standing starts... then 5min of full recovery between.. if you need more to recover take more... you should be fully recovered before you do another sprint... improving your sprint is a lot about form and muscle memory... if you are doing your sprint workout not fully recovered you are likely ingraining bad form and as a result low power... this means a sprint workout should come after a recovery day and full recovery between sprints... after your sprint do about 20min cool down... ~10min tempo followed by 10min AR.. basically ride home fairly easy...

short (5-10sec), uphill, standing start sprints, over geared overemphasize the pedalling action and are good to warmup... keep pedalling 'til you get on top of the gear.... usually do these first to warm up and get you thinking about what you will do later

longer (10-15sec), flying starts are good for recreating real world sprints, practice getting leg speed up etc... start at the top of a small hill roll down the hill/pedal lightly to get up to ~40km/hr... at the bottom of the hill sprint all out... standing then as you get on top of the gear sit and try to maintain your speed as much as possible... these are the sprints that will make you fast in real world situations (difference between high 5sec power and sprinting ability).. again much of this is about ingraining the technique

keep in mind that this is only part of the puzzle... you need to get to the end of the race in order to sprint... you need to get into position... only then will your sprinting ability be significant... by reducing your other training you could be severely impairing your sprinting ability (i.e. NOT you 5sec power number)... contrary to popular belief sprinting in not all about NMP...

Outstanding -- I had some very similar thoughts but you beat me too it. I have always speculated that one reason why some people, those possessing the correct muscle morphology, is that they are not fully recovered between exercise repetitions. As intensity increases and duration increases, the rest:work increases and must time is spent in recovery between repetitions -- 5 minutes may not be enough too.

I strongly agree that aerobic capacity can overcome other "limiters," Fabian Cancellera being a good example. The good news is that if time is available, anaerobic workouts can be added to a training program without inducing over-reaching or compromising other workouts. Moreover, at least in regards to 30-second interval training, there is a evidence-supported crossover benefit to FTP.

So, if you have the time, go for it. Add some sprint and 30-second intervals to your program. During peaking, I perform such workouts after my 2X20s and VO2 max workouts. I never see much increase in my 5-second or 30-second powers, but it certainly helps peaking my FTP.

 

[john979]

good sprinting overview/ perspective.. I'll try it.

Also.. don't forget the importance that mitochondrial DNA has, on a persons ability to convert food into usable energy (production of ATP and regulation of cellular metabolism). This cannot be bought, you got what you got. However, isn't there some drugs that can enhance(short term) the mitochon. effect ? I forget its name.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Sports Medicine and Science: http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol142/table.htm.

Why the conflict? Studies often segregate subjects based upon age, gender and training status. However, subjects are rarely segregated by muscle/genetic morphology. Thus, one study might conclude intervention X has no effect, while another concludes the opposite.