can one buy generic spokes?

Anthony Anagnostou said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Quoted message said:

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs? However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic I can buy somewhere? I've
only ever seen the name brands for sale. What do department store bikes use? The ones around
campus don't seem to be rusting.

Quoted message said:

Yes. I'm sure one can only find name brand for a reason, but I can't help but wonder why a cheaper
stainless spoke can't be made/sold. No butting. No blades.

It took the principal spoke manufacturers many years to develop a wire from which durable spokes
can be formed. That material must have a high tensile strength and high ductility for forming the
spoke and installing it in a wheel, an operation that causes additional plastic deformation. Not
long ago spoke failure was so common that riders always carried spare spokes, spoke wrench, and
freewheel remover.

Today, spoke material and manufacture has improved substantially, and I believe partly as a result
of knowing how spokes are stressed in use as well as what causes failures, something that was not
understood until recently. Spoke steel is not the same as ordinary structural or wire stainless
steel and, the requirement of high strength and ductility being contradictory. Tensile tests of the
better spokes (name brand) show that his has been achieved today.

It isn't worth your while to build wheels with anything but a reputable brand name spoke and
these are all relatively expensive. Your best bet is to look for the best price rather than
lesser quality.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Anthony Anagnostou said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Quoted message said:

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs? However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic I can buy somewhere? I've
only ever seen the name brands for sale. What do department store bikes use? The ones around
campus don't seem to be rusting.

Quoted message said:

Yes. I'm sure one can only find name brand for a reason, but I can't help but wonder why a cheaper
stainless spoke can't be made/sold. No butting. No blades.

It took the principal spoke manufacturers many years to develop a wire from which durable spokes
could be formed. A wire that must have high tensile strength and high ductility for forming and
installing spokes it in a wheel, an operation that causes additional plastic deformation. Not long
ago spoke failure was so common that most riders carried spare spokes, a spoke wrench, and a
freewheel remover.

Today, spoke material and manufacture has improved substantially, and I believe partly as a result
of understanding how spokes are stressed in use as well as what causes failures, something that was
not generally known until recently. Spoke steel is not the same as ordinary structural or wire
stainless steel, its requirement of high strength and ductility being contradictory. Tensile tests
of better spokes (name brand) show that his has been achieved today.

It isn't worth your while to build wheels with anything but a reputable brand name spoke, and these
are all relatively expensive. Your best bet is to look for a better price rather than lesser
quality. While you're at it, you might also reconsider your choice of straight gauge spokes. Butted
(or swaged) 1.6-1.8mm spokes are probably the best choice for a wheel.

Thinner spokes wind up excessively from tightening torque unless special skills are used. When you
think spokes, think long screws and that a screws usually fail in their threads, the smallest cross
section. Machine screws designed for high cyclic loads are often "strain screws" with a mid section
smaller in diameter than the root of the thread, essentially swaged spokes.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

www.thorusa.com has excellent prices on Sapim spokes. $8.00/20 spokes (butted IIRC). Cheapest
elsewhere I've seen is about $13/20.

[email hidden] (ant) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs. However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic i can buy somewhere? I've
only ever seen the name brands for sale. what do department store bikes use? The ones around
campus dont seem to be rusting.

Yes. im sure one can only find namebrand for a reason, but i cant help but wonder why a cheaper
stainless spoke cant be made/sold. no butting. no blades.

any sources? any ideas?

thanks, anthony

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Anthony Anagnostou said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Quoted message said:

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs? However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic I can buy somewhere?
I've only ever seen the name brands for sale. What do department store bikes use? The ones
around campus don't seem to be rusting.

Quoted message said:

Yes. I'm sure one can only find name brand for a reason, but I can't help but wonder why a
cheaper stainless spoke can't be made/sold. No butting. No blades.

It took the principal spoke manufacturers many years to develop a wire from which durable spokes
could be formed. A wire that must have high tensile strength and high ductility for forming and
installing spokes it in a wheel, an operation that causes additional plastic deformation. Not long
ago spoke failure was so common that most riders carried spare spokes, a spoke wrench, and a
freewheel remover.

Today, spoke material and manufacture has improved substantially, and I believe partly as a result
of understanding how spokes are stressed in use as well as what causes failures, something that
was not generally known until recently. Spoke steel is not the same as ordinary structural or wire
stainless steel, its requirement of high strength and ductility being contradictory. Tensile tests
of better spokes (name brand) show that his has been achieved today.

It isn't worth your while to build wheels with anything but a reputable brand name spoke, and
these are all relatively expensive. Your best bet is to look for a better price rather than lesser
quality. While you're at it, you might also reconsider your choice of straight gauge spokes.
Butted (or swaged) 1.6-1.8mm spokes are probably the best choice for a wheel.

Thinner spokes wind up excessively from tightening torque unless special skills are used. When you
think spokes, think long screws and that a screws usually fail in their threads, the smallest
cross section. Machine screws designed for high cyclic loads are often "strain screws" with a mid
section smaller in diameter than the root of the thread, essentially swaged spokes.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Sapim "Indian Head" 14-g almost fit the bill... they have a decent stainless spoke and are half the
price of DT etc. They seem to be more flexible/less brittle than some - Ъ×

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

While you're at it, you might also reconsider your choice of straight gauge spokes. Butted (or
swaged) 1.6-1.8mm spokes are probably the best choice for a wheel.

Can please explain why 1.6/1.8mm (15/16g) butted spokes would be a "better" choice than heavy, but
stronger 2.0/1.8 (14/15g) butted spokes? Almost every wheelbuilder/shop I've talked to say 2.0/1.8mm
spokes are better as its stronger and more durable than 1.6/1.8mm. Thanks...

[email hidden] (ant) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs. However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic i can buy somewhere? I've
only ever seen the name brands for sale. what do department store bikes use? The ones around
campus dont seem to be rusting.

Yes. im sure one can only find namebrand for a reason, but i cant help but wonder why a cheaper
stainless spoke cant be made/sold. no butting. no blades.

any sources? any ideas?

thanks, anthony

Well, Jobst has explained things pretty well: since you've limited yourself to stainless steel,
you'll have to pay the price of the expensive alloy needed to make a durable spoke.

Department store bikes generally use cheaper cadmium- or chrome-plated spokes- they don't show rust,
but they do corrode. You might be able to buy some from a local shop- but they won't won't make as
good a wheel as stainless.

For lower priced stainless spokes, take a look at BikePartsUSA's Wheel Master brand:
bikepartsusa.comview.phtmlOpen ↗

Jeff

bfd (?) said:

Can please explain why 1.6/1.8mm (15/16g) butted spokes would be a "better" choice than heavy, but
stronger 2.0/1.8 (14/15g) butted spokes? Almost every wheelbuilder/shop I've talked to say
2.0/1.8mm spokes are better as its stronger and more durable than 1.6/1.8mm. Thanks...

Either thickness will result in the same spoke tension, which is governed by the rim strength, not
the spoke thickness.

Thinner spokes are more elastic and are more able to maintain tension while the wheel is
compressed at the contact patch. A thicker spoke is less elastic and liable to go slack, sending
the wheel out of true.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

Just checked their site: $4.00 for 20 straight 14 ga. Hard to beat.

App

[email hidden] (Appkiller) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

www.thorusa.com has excellent prices on Sapim spokes. $8.00/20 spokes (butted IIRC). Cheapest
elsewhere I've seen is about $13/20.

[email hidden] (ant) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I want to build wheels, but the parts prices are prohibitive (ya' like that alliteration?). It
kills me how I can buy a wheelset cheaper than I can buy its parts and build it myself.

Anyways, I can get hold of cheap rims and cheap hubs. However, I've never seen cheap spokes. If
all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic i can buy somewhere?
I've only ever seen the name brands for sale. what do department store bikes use? The ones
around campus dont seem to be rusting.

Yes. im sure one can only find namebrand for a reason, but i cant help but wonder why a cheaper
stainless spoke cant be made/sold. no butting. no blades.

any sources? any ideas?

thanks, anthony

(ant) said:

If all I want is a simple straight 14g set of spokes, isn't there a generic i can buy somewhere?

I've had good luck with "Wheel Master" spokes which never cost me more than 1/2 what DT
straight-gauge spokes do. They come in a somewhat limited selection of lengths, fine for most common
rim/hub combinations. I think they're boxed in quantity 75, and my LBS charges me US$.25 apiece. If
your LBS doesn't stock them, you may have to buy whole box quantities.

Wheel Master also offer bright zinc plated spokes in packages of 144 for about $12. Less than ten
cents a spoke is stinkin' cheap. Assembled to the nipples with grease lube, these spokes hold up
fine in my experience. They don't give the satisfaction of a wheel that maintains its good looks
seemingly forever, though.

Though I've had no problem with either of these types of bargain spokes, I still use DT spokes for
my own wheels. They come with far superior nipples, and the threads have a crisper and more
consistent boundary on the spoke wire. I find that both these characteristics make them easier to
build with than the cheapies.

Chalo Colina

bfd snipes anonymously:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While you're at it, you might also reconsider your choice of straight gauge spokes. Butted (or
swaged) 1.6-1.8mm spokes are probably the best choice for a wheel.

Quoted message said:

Can please explain why 1.6/1.8mm (15/16g) butted spokes would be a "better" choice than heavy, but
stronger 2.0/1.8 (14/15g) butted spokes? Almost every wheelbuilder/shop I've talked to say
2.0/1.8mm spokes are better as its stronger and more durable than 1.6/1.8mm.

You say "stronger 2.0/1.8 (14/15g) butted spokes" but that doesn't make them more durable or make a
stronger wheel (one that can carry a higher load). Properly built, even a DT Revolution spoke
1.5-2.0mm or
1.5-1.8mm are more than strong enough for conventional wheels. Spoke failure comes from failure to
stress relieve, not overload. That tensile stress is not excessive should be apparent from spokes
not breaking in their thin midsections. Failure is caused by residual high stress left in spoke
elbows and threads from manufacture and wheel building. That is why stress relieving is essential.

Fatter spokes cannot make a stronger wheel. Only a heavier rim can do that.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Snip> . That > tensile stress is not excessive should be apparent from
spokes not

Quoted message said:

breaking in their thin midsections. Failure is caused by residual high stress left in spoke elbows
and threads from manufacture and wheel building. That is why stress relieving is essential......
Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Jobst,

The edition of your book that I have ( Second Edition, 8th printing, 1990, under SPOKE STRENGTH)
says the following: "Butted spokes failed in their reduced diameter mid-sections while the unbutted
spokes failed at their elbows." I note that this failure was under a test mode to tensile test the
spokes. I also note that no spoke failed under less than 200+ kg force. I suspect that it is a rare
situation that any spoke is under that force in a normal build and under normal riding conditions. I
never have had a spoke fail in the reduced diameter mid-section.

On another matter, the charts showing the elastic response to strain, there doesn't seem to be a
significant amount more elasticity in any of the spokes (in their normal tension range) unless I go
to the WS Butted more elastic reference line. Is there new data in more recent printings? What
spoke tension are you seeing in high quality wheels? What amount of additional deflection margin
should I expect?

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

David Ornee said:

Quoted message said:

That tensile stress is not excessive should be apparent from spokes not breaking in their thin
midsections. Failure is caused by residual high stress left in spoke elbows and threads from
manufacture and wheel building. That is why stress relieving is essential......

I should have gone on to say that it is fatigue that breaks spokes, not forced rupture and that is
why all the straight gauge promoters are wrong when they claim that these stronger spokes also make
a stronger wheel.

Quoted message said:

The edition of your book that I have (Second Edition, 8th printing, 1990, under SPOKE STRENGTH)
says the following:

Quoted message said:

"Butted spokes failed in their reduced diameter mid-sections while the unbutted spokes failed at
their elbows."

Quoted message said:

I note that this failure was under a test mode to tensile test the spokes. I also note that no
spoke failed under less than 200+ kg force. I suspect that it is a rare situation that any spoke
is under that force in a normal build and under normal riding conditions.

Yes? This is a tensile test that causes failure where the highest stress occurs, something that is
cross section and loading related. In use, spokes operate at about 1/3 their yield stress and
therefore are not going to break at the slender cross section at mid span but rather at stress
concentrations. However you know this because you have the book that explains that at great length.

Quoted message said:

I never have had a spoke fail in the reduced diameter mid-section.

Yes?

Quoted message said:

On another matter, the charts showing the elastic response to strain, there doesn't seem to be a
significant amount more elasticity in any of the spokes (in their normal tension range) unless I
go to the WS Butted more elastic reference line.

These were as measured stress/strain curves that are not straight lines from the origin because
there is some bending in the elbow, they being real spokes and not straight tensile specimens.
You'll notice that swaged DT spokes are so ductile that they did not rupture but just stretches like
modeling clay beyond the yield point.

Quoted message said:

Is there new data in more recent printings? What spoke tension are you seeing in high quality
wheels? What amount of additional deflection margin should I expect?

Only the units have been changes to Newtons.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA