Campagnolo Electronic

"Bob De Jonge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.

A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to set-up
and then maintain the indexing. You would think we would have made progress
beyond the great Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub of the 1930's.

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about 10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain, then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

Dave Mayer said:

A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to set-up
and then maintain the indexing.

Especially in the section of the market where Campagnolo is this is
definitely not true. High-quality derailer systems are not too fragile,
or at least I'm not seeing many broken derailers, chains or cogs. I'm
sure for example downhill mountain biking is different, but they still
use predominantly derailer gearing.

I get between 3000 to 5000 miles from a chain on a Campagnolo drivetrain
before excessive wear, and most people would not consider that rapid.
I always found setting up pretty easy and it requires basically no
maintenance. In fact the only adjustment you CAN do after the initial
(correct) setup is fine adjusting the cable length, but good cables
don't stretch much.

Quoted message said:

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about 10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain, then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

The 14-speed Rohloff hub is within 200 grams of many derailleur
drivetrains, and in any case the weight difference is so small that it
doesn't make any difference. It's also efficient enough for most uses
and is indeed an impressive piece of equipment. What are you waiting for?

-as

In article <[email hidden]>,

Antti Salonen said:

Dave Mayer said:

A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to
set-up
and then maintain the indexing.

Especially in the section of the market where Campagnolo is this is
definitely not true. High-quality derailer systems are not too fragile,
or at least I'm not seeing many broken derailers, chains or cogs. I'm
sure for example downhill mountain biking is different, but they still
use predominantly derailer gearing.

Like Dave, I'm baffled by the purpose of Campy's electric shifters. I'm
impressed by the technology, and I have previously suggested possible
advantages to electronic shifting (two-button sequential shifting,
dynamically self-adjusting shifting, maybe even automatic shifting), but
I'm doubtful that making shifting more complex and adding a mandatory
battery to the drivetrain just isn't right.

Quoted message said:

I get between 3000 to 5000 miles from a chain on a Campagnolo drivetrain
before excessive wear, and most people would not consider that rapid.
I always found setting up pretty easy and it requires basically no
maintenance. In fact the only adjustment you CAN do after the initial
(correct) setup is fine adjusting the cable length, but good cables
don't stretch much.

There's a lot to be said for derailer drivetrains, especially on bikes
for racing, fast riding, or weekend warriordom, but in terms of
practical machinery, I agree with Dave's implicit feeling that hub gears
(and enclosed chains) make a lot of sense, but traditional 3-speeds are
not quite enough. More below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about
10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain,
then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

The 14-speed Rohloff hub is within 200 grams of many derailleur
drivetrains, and in any case the weight difference is so small that it
doesn't make any difference. It's also efficient enough for most uses
and is indeed an impressive piece of equipment. What are you waiting for?

Knowing Dave, a thriving market on eBay 🙂. More seriously, Rohloff hub
drives compare well with new complete high-end derailer drivetrains, but
at a notable weight penalty and a certain efficiency penalty. More
worryingly, there's basically no used-Rohloff market, while used or
OEM-surplus derailer drivetrains are available very cheaply, which is
nice.

Since a new Rohloff hub alone would cost substantially more than the
entire price of my carefully-crafted (and race-winning) race bike, it is
a very hard sell.

I think the real deal, long term, will probably be the Shimano Nexus 8,
which has a reasonable range of gears and reasonable performance for
less than one third the price of a Rohloff. The old 7-speed version is
slightly cheaper again.

for the US$250 the primo hub (plus shifter) would set you back, I could
make a pretty nifty US$300 super-commuter: take a road frame with
horizontal dropouts, add Nexus 8 and chainguard, budget for fenders and
a front dual-pivot brake with good pads. Yes, I can probably find an
appropriate base bike for $10. Little maintenance, not too much money,
fairly light, and way cool.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/shimano-nexus.html

The SRAM Spectro 7 is also nice, but a bit more than a Nexus 7 and a bit
less than a Nexus 8:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sram.html

That said, this putative super-commuter is competing with the near-free
lightly-used old road bikes that are thick on the ground most places.
You have to really like cleanliness, low maintenance, and unfussy
shifting to pay the premium for a hub-shifting bike.

Maybe next year,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Didn't Mavic also experiment with electronic derailleurs? I remember the bikes
on the neutral service cars, during the (now defunct) Trans Canada Tour back in
1999, had Mavic electronic derailleurs on them.

J. Spaceman

--
My email address ([email hidden]) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.

Thanks for the comments all --- I guess nobody out there knows the
status either.

OK - I'll get drawn in by the trollers ----- 🙂
on the chain wear comment -- I'm sorry, but 5000 miles on a chain is
poor. I am assuming road riding - I can understand off-road would
shorten a chain's lifespan.
I get ~15,000 miles from my chains. If I get 10,000 or less, I'm
disappointed. I'll tell you my secret, and its not a secret at all --
chainwax. I wax my chain about every 500mi, and with the powerlink
chains now, it's easier than ever. I make a homebrew, as it has been
over 5 years since I could find it in any stores. But, paraffin + PTFE
powder + a tiny bit of slick50 does very well. I log every ride, every
bit of maintenance, so I have 20 years of data.
Anyway - you should be able to get well over 10,000 miles from a chain
on a road bike.

Now, electronic shifting - I was just curious on their progress, that's
all. I understand your point of view in that it wouldn't seem to offer
any advantages. But, I'm into product development, and besides -- I
HATE all those cables sprouting from everywhere on those bars these
days. I still use downtube shifters, which perform much better, and
leaves me a very clean cockpit. In my opinion, the current multi-use
brake levers were a step backwards -- much the same way you see the
electronic shifting development. I feel the early 90's were the
cleanest so far, and maybe the new development will go back to that
clean package.
So, we all have different points of view.
And, yes, Mavic did make 2 versions of an electronic system - the ZAP
8-speed that came out in the mid-90's, and the Mektronic 9-speed that
came out maybe 5 years later. I've got both, and love them. I have the
ZAP on my Lotus TT bike -- of course, gotta keep it original to the
Boardman build!!!! I even crashed on it once -- smashed the cover on
the derailleur, but it still worked!!! and it got me home to my road
rash kit just fine!!!! Anyway, I've since stocked up on my ZAP parts
and should be good for life now.
The wireless development in the Mektronic opened up another whole area
for various products. I will say the huge rear mech is something I
still struggle with. I love the ZAP rear - much nicer package. But,
the wireless and de-centralized power storage is an advantage for the
Mektronic.

Anyway, I had heard bits & pieces about the Campy, and how they were
doing a powered front as well, so I continue to be curious about design
cues, packaging, kinematics, execution, etc. etc.

Anyway - flame away!!!!
And get some chainwax!!!!

Bob De Jonge said:

Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.

Seems to be working in the prototype stage. One 'snag' was the high
power requirements of the front der. It is kinda keen as the front der
moves on it's own when the chain goes to larger cogs, automatically
keeping the chain from rubbing, and is electronic when whifting between
rings. Gonna be VERY pricey if they make it, which is still a question.
May see it in Milano in the September bicycle show.

Thanks Peter -- will be watching for news. I was curious about the
front der as well, and how they're doing the rear movement. Mavic's
method for moving the rear was/is very unique.
Bob

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Bob De Jonge said:

Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.

Seems to be working in the prototype stage. One 'snag' was the high
power requirements of the front der. It is kinda keen as the front der
moves on it's own when the chain goes to larger cogs, automatically
keeping the chain from rubbing, and is electronic when whifting between
rings. Gonna be VERY pricey if they make it, which is still a question.
May see it in Milano in the September bicycle show.

Bob De Jonge said:

Thanks for the comments all --- I guess nobody out there knows the
status either.

The status is that they've been working on it for at least a few years
and that it's still in testing. There is no projected date of release.

There was a writeup on Cyclingnews around the time of Paris-Roubaix
because somebody or other rode the drivetrain there. That may be the
highest profile test so far, so it also may be why it seems like it's on
the verge of retail.

-eric

Ryan Cousineau said:

That said, this putative super-commuter is competing with the near-free
lightly-used old road bikes that are thick on the ground most places.
You have to really like cleanliness, low maintenance, and unfussy
shifting to pay the premium for a hub-shifting bike.

600-800 euro bikes with various hub gears (shimano 7s, 8s, and srams),
roller brakes, Shimano hub dynamo, full chaincase, and all the rest of the
mod cons for commuter bikes are selling like hotcakes over here.

Jasper

Antti Salonen said:

I have a modern Campagnolo drivetrain on both of my bikes and I don't
think there can be any real improvement on the way it works. I'm not
sure what you mean by sequential shifting, but Campagnolo levers already
allow changing multiple gears with a single press of the lever of the
button.

I[1] want to have one button for [censored] up, and one for down. I don't give a
[censored] whether it shifts front or rear or both to do that -- let the
computer figure it out. When I don't want to bother at all, I might want
to set the drivetrain to auto, and let it base up and down shifts on my
cadence (perhaps warning me with a buzzer that it's about to shift). I'm
sure they'll figure out other cool stuff after a while.

Jasper

[1] Well, the hypothetical target market for this kind of thing, anyway.
I'd just as soon know what's happening.

Bob De Jonge said:

Anyway - you should be able to get well over 10,000 miles from a chain
on a road bike.

Hi, since you seem to have well documented data and good performance,
I'm curious about:

How you determine when the chain is worn out.
Which chains you use.
What conditions you ride in (wet, dry, dusty?).
Type of cogs/rings and how long they last.

There are a lot of opinions on this subject, but objective long-term
information is pretty rare...

Jasper Janssen said:

600-800 euro bikes with various hub gears (shimano 7s, 8s, and srams),
roller brakes, Shimano hub dynamo, full chaincase, and all the rest of the
mod cons for commuter bikes are selling like hotcakes over here.

I'm not sure where "over here" is, but I'm assuming Germany or perhaps
Denmark. I saw those a lot over there and they are indeed very sensible
bikes for their typical use.

For some reason, over here, the typical new commuter bike in the same
price range is a hybrid with 24 or 27 gears and a cheap, bad front
suspension. Often they are sold without fenders and there is no
chaincase of any kind. With small modifications they can be made into
reasonably good bikes for their use but the kind of bikes you mentioned
would be a lot better. For some reason they are difficult to find and
are definitely not marketed.

-as

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<big snip>

Quoted message said:

Knowing Dave, a thriving market on eBay 🙂. More seriously,

Rohloff hub

Quoted message said:

drives compare well with new complete high-end derailer

drivetrains, but

Quoted message said:

at a notable weight penalty and a certain efficiency penalty.

More

Quoted message said:

worryingly, there's basically no used-Rohloff market, while

used or

Quoted message said:

OEM-surplus derailer drivetrains are available very cheaply,

which is

Quoted message said:

nice.

Since a new Rohloff hub alone would cost substantially more

than the

Quoted message said:

entire price of my carefully-crafted (and race-winning) race

bike, it is

Quoted message said:

a very hard sell.

I think the real deal, long term, will probably be the Shimano

Nexus 8,

Quoted message said:

which has a reasonable range of gears and reasonable

performance for

Quoted message said:

less than one third the price of a Rohloff. The old 7-speed

version is

Quoted message said:

slightly cheaper again.

for the US$250 the primo hub (plus shifter) would set you back,

I could

Quoted message said:

make a pretty nifty US$300 super-commuter: take a road frame

with

Quoted message said:

horizontal dropouts, add Nexus 8 and chainguard, budget for

fenders and

Quoted message said:

a front dual-pivot brake with good pads. Yes, I can probably

find an

Quoted message said:

appropriate base bike for $10. Little maintenance, not too much

money,

Quoted message said:

fairly light, and way cool.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/shimano-nexus.html

The SRAM Spectro 7 is also nice, but a bit more than a Nexus 7

and a bit

Quoted message said:

less than a Nexus 8:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sram.html

That said, this putative super-commuter is competing with the

near-free

Quoted message said:

lightly-used old road bikes that are thick on the ground most

places.

Quoted message said:

You have to really like cleanliness, low maintenance, and

unfussy

Quoted message said:

shifting to pay the premium for a hub-shifting bike.

Maybe next year,

I would really consider one of these things if it had STI type
shifting or a shifter that was compatible with drop bars and if
it were quick release. The last thing I want to do during the
winter is stand around in the rain, wrenching on my real wheel so
I can fix a flat -- and I get a fair amount of flats in the rain
due to glass and the lubricating effect of rain water. And I
can't do a Tom Nakashima two-minute patch job because those
stick-um patches just don't stick in the rain. -- Jay Beattie.

Not counting grams, but how much will this entire system weight? It's
gotta have a pretty decent battery to power all the actuators and the
actuators have to bear some weight. Will probably not need anything on
par with an HID lighting system but will still need something that can
last on a long ride.

What the was the logic behind going electric (reliability, efficiency)?
Mavic's Mektronic did gain much acceptance in the peleton and with
mainstream riders.

Claude

Hi Ron - glad to comment here----
I use a 12-inch scale to judge chain wear. I put the zero centered on a
link pin. Then I look at the 12-inch mark. If the mark is tangent to
or off that link pin, the chain is done. When a chain is new, both the
zero and 12-inch mark are centered on pins.
I prefer the old Rohloff chains that were OEM on early 90's Campy
groups. I have a few left. I also use Sachs/Sedis PC80R (I think
that's the model - they change the number over the years). I've had
good luck with them. Always the silver though 🙂 so I can see when
they're dirty or clean!
I get caught in the rain now and then, but mostly dry weather. Dusty or
no I'm not sure. But, I will tell you, the reason I use chain wax is
because of the dust -- much of which you don't know is there. Oil will
attract the dust, and before long your lube has turned into a lapping
compound with all the dust & dirt clung onto your chain. Wax is dry,
and does not attract dust. Plus, when you wax it, you clean it at the
same time.
Anyway, when I do get caught in the rain, I wax the chain right away.
The wax does not protect well against the water. If you ride your bike
hard and put it away wet, you'll pay in more ways than a chain that
wears out quicker.
I use Campy C-Rec stuff, as that is the vintage of my bikes, and I have
NEVER worn out a cog or chainring. I attribute that to the material in
the cogs & rings - they are high quality - and not using worn out
chains. I do have a slightly newer TT bike, with Shimano 9-speed, but
mileage is not as high on that drivetrain, so poor comparison.
I still get 10k miles a year, and years ago would get 14-15k. So, I
have enough mileage to provide data.
I have objective data, as I have logged every mile since 1992. I
studied tire life and chain life for awhile, but I've satisfied myself now.
Anyway - that's the way it has happened for me. Hope the info is useful.
Bob

Ron Ruff said:

Bob De Jonge said:

Anyway - you should be able to get well over 10,000 miles from a chain
on a road bike.

Hi, since you seem to have well documented data and good performance,
I'm curious about:

How you determine when the chain is worn out.
Which chains you use.
What conditions you ride in (wet, dry, dusty?).
Type of cogs/rings and how long they last.

There are a lot of opinions on this subject, but objective long-term
information is pretty rare...

Antti Salonen said:

Jasper Janssen said:

600-800 euro bikes with various hub gears (shimano 7s, 8s, and srams),
roller brakes, Shimano hub dynamo, full chaincase, and all the rest of the
mod cons for commuter bikes are selling like hotcakes over here.

I'm not sure where "over here" is, but I'm assuming Germany or perhaps
Denmark. I saw those a lot over there and they are indeed very sensible
bikes for their typical use.

The Netherlands, actually. We're absolutely bonkers for bicycles, and
gearhubs in particular. There's a bit over 1 bike per inhabitant and the
overwhelmingly vast supermajority of them have gearhubs, fenders, rack,
lighting, and chaincase (In some cases, they were just sold as such, but
have lost them somewhere along the way. C'est la vie.). We were Sturmey
Archer's largest export market for decades.

Quoted message said:

For some reason, over here, the typical new commuter bike in the same

Your over here is Finnland?

Quoted message said:

price range is a hybrid with 24 or 27 gears and a cheap, bad front
suspension. Often they are sold without fenders and there is no
chaincase of any kind. With small modifications they can be made into
reasonably good bikes for their use but the kind of bikes you mentioned
would be a lot better. For some reason they are difficult to find and
are definitely not marketed.

I cannot see a bike without fenders being terribly useful in Finnland. It
just doesn't work in my head. Hybrids were pretty popular here for a
while, when Sturmey went bankrupt, but the new Shimano 7 gearhub basically
refilled the niche, and for the ultracheap, but not quite singlespeed
market, there's now the taiwanese 3speed Sturmeys.

Still, the hybrid or MTB base with low-end Shimano Tourney 3x6 or 7
freewheel gearing is a little bit cheaper than a threespeed Sturmey, and
remains so once you get done adding fenders, a rack, lighting, and one of
those little chain protector things (that are nothing of the sort, they
just protect your pants from getting in the chain), so they are sometimes
sold. Hardware store specials, mostly, the department stores have better
stuff.

Jasper

Jay Beattie said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the real deal, long term, will probably be the Shimano

Nexus 8,

Quoted message said:

which has a reasonable range of gears and reasonable

performance for

Quoted message said:

less than one third the price of a Rohloff. The old 7-speed

version is

Quoted message said:

slightly cheaper again.

I would really consider one of these things if it had STI type
shifting or a shifter that was compatible with drop bars and if
it were quick release. The last thing I want to do during the
winter is stand around in the rain, wrenching on my real wheel so
I can fix a flat -- and I get a fair amount of flats in the rain
due to glass and the lubricating effect of rain water. And I
can't do a Tom Nakashima two-minute patch job because those
stick-um patches just don't stick in the rain. -- Jay Beattie.

Then you do need the Rohloff. But, seriously, you don't need to remove the
rear wheel for patching. Only for a replacement tube or tyre. Simply pull
the tube out on the non-drive side, and you've got more than enough room
to patch with whatever is your favourite poison. Just as easy as with the
wheel off, really.

Jasper

Dave Mayer said:

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about 10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain, then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

Er...Rohloff? OK, it costs as much as a decent bike, but if hub gears
float your boat...

C.H. Luu said:

Not counting grams, but how much will this entire system weight? It's
gotta have a pretty decent battery to power all the actuators and the
actuators have to bear some weight. Will probably not need anything on
par with an HID lighting system but will still need something that can
last on a long ride.

I don't think you'd use actuators that need power to stay in teh same
place. Just get some power windows/lock actuator-like things, basically
small high speed motors with large reduction geartrains (often involving a
worm wheel) that only work in one direction.

Jasper